Let's pretend I have a Volvo 242

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MattWatson

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Morison
Fair enough, but if we assume people aren't going to replace perfectly good engines with a new crate motor, then we can start looking at real world comparisons.

How about Dave Clark 2.0 as an example.

What are the options:
- Pick up a known runner and install...
- as above but 'refresh' it first...
- Pick up a good 'core' and rebuild it from the ground up...
- open up the current engine and rebuild it...

Before looking at the cost of time, how much in parts and materials are we looking at?

Calgary pricing ASSUMING no bore at all or replacement of major parts with a block in really really good shape and just needs some TLC for knowledge that you did the work. (eg, NOTHING in the head...) this is what I spent on the 900 B202 block I just did this with:


Consumables: $175 (cleaners, degreasers, lapping compound etc)!!!
Bearings Main&Rod&Thrust: $170
......Main ...............................................$44.79
......Rods 6.65 ea....................................$26.60
......Auxilliary shaft Brarings......................$14.62
Rings: $50....................Turbo rings .....56.79
Bolts Head&Exhaust: $40
Gaskets: $180
Seals: $60 ish
Plugs & Wires & Cap: $80
Flexhone for your engine: $75


Or easier:

Freshen up"

Ford 2.3L Turbo 7/16/1986-1988 Engine Re-Ring Kit
Part #: ER0322

Includes: Piston Rings, Rod Bearings, Main Bearings, Gasket Set
Price: $170.99

Ford 2.3L Turbo 7/16/1986-1988 Master Kit
Part #: EK0323

Includes: Camshaft, Lifters, Timing Set, Pistons, Piston Rings, Rod Bearings, Main Bearings, Cam Bearings, Auxiliary Shaft Bearings, Oil Pump, Frost Plugs, Gasket Set
Price: $493.99
Turbo:
Turbo Rebuild: $140
Turbo Turbine Housing (they are ALWAYS cracked): $150

Shipping: at least $150 or so

So around $1270 I figure I had 100 hours or so into the rebuild with NO headwork at all. Didn't need to deck, anything.

So, unless you have a saab block which are almost indestructable, you will have to pick and choose from the following depending. (and this is where the calgary part comes in... and these prices are OLD so they are likely way higher now. This was from our flathead we did 8 years ago)

Boring: $120 per hole (assume 4cyl AND if you can find someone in calgary willing to do it): $480
Pistons: $100 per hole: $400
Decking block: $200
Head Milling: $200
Valves exhaust: $280
Valves intake: $160


Seattle bore 4 cylinder---$125
Deck block......................$85
Head,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,$50
Valves 1 piece stainless oversize all 8 for $146--or less




So if you had a more realistic rebuild with you supply 100% of the labour except the machine work.
$2990

I got quotes if I supplied all the parts that a full head rebuild (seat grinds, guides, etc) could total $1500 not including materials!

That motor is looking better and better lol.

You be getting serious raped up there.
Thanks Harper!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2014 11:30PM by john vanlandingham.

Sounds like a great deal for something that makes 250/250 on pump gas and should be basically OEM streetcar reliable for years of rally abuse with basic oil changes.

If your rebuild needs machine work, pistons, rods, valves, porting, ECU and TUNING, you can approach that number real quick and you might still be running a used $100 turbo and rebuild kit that takes out the whole thing on the first stage.

If I were spending a couple of grand just to enter and get to an event, I would be wise to be well prepared----and that doesn't mean having a spare junkyard turbo in my parts bin. I could be wrong but, it seems to me that as costs have gone up, the number of cars that show up and need a major overhaul of some sort in the parking lot before the event even starts --- and then limp and speed intermittently through the rally consuming used parts along the way---- are fewer and fewer.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Quote
heymagic
And add camshaft, new alternator, new starter, new ECU and harness and any cost associated with core block and head if needed. Price gets closer AND someone else did the labor. Really not a bad deal at all.

Except for 205 hp/235 ft/lbs they don't need a "new" ecu, harness and camshaft---Sean found that out when it was yelled at for a year and put a stocker back in---it pulled better--
And starter? Who said anything was wronh with the starter? Alternator? why not new everything?
New car?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh c'mon JV. The package has a price and to determine if the value is present all of it has to be factored in. A factory new starter and alternator has a pretty hefty price when compared to Chinese knock-offs or junkyard cores. Having dnf'd an Olympus over 'new' rebuilt electrical parts I can see the value.

At todays event costs for a mechanical dnf that engine package isn't a bad value. I just had a customer spend over 5k getting a reman 4.7 put in a 2000 Jeep with 180,000 miles on it. Shit is expensive these days.

I guess on the Intra-web where everything--EVERYTHING is always one extreme or the diametric opposite, I guess it need to be stated before i get called more names that I am not suggesting anybody to rely on junk yard junk...

But maybe its too subtle a distinction but there IS a huge range of things between junk yard junk and new..

I don't think anybody stresses more that due to the 10 times jump in the cost of entries that a person has to be the bad kinda crazy to not have KNOWN GOOD PARTS on the car and as spares..
KNOWN GOOD..

This calls for occasional "judgement calls"...testing, and measuring...and the hard thing is knowing even what "new" is...

Like everything in the end it this motor derailment, there is a balance to be found, a cost/benefit calculation to be done.
In the Volvo---which was the subject it is a good motor on which to invest a bit.
The Lima 2300 SOHC thing....I have always said "If it has oil pressure, run it..If you have to refresh then refresh the bottom end and new valve springs BUT DO NOT spend any money in the head. Buy something better and Duratec makes the most sense---normal boring $175 core 2300 Duratecs

And then there is a basic philosophical approach to be considered: if you believe you CAN learn, then maybe you learn to to make edjimcated judgement calls...if you rate eases of everything, and have gone thru life solving problems by buying things, then whatever....

One thing this detour has taught us---Calgary machine shop and parts prices are ridiculous...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 09:28AM by john vanlandingham.

This thread is completely derailed JV.
Question on your Duratec suggestion for merkur. Has anyone done it? The reason I ask is that my engine is basically stock, but there was so much engineering involved in getting the stock motor to work with the new engine mounts, intercooler plumbing, and alternator mount.
The idea of going to a Duratec someday is attractive, but not if it takes massive r&d and $$ to make it work. I'm seriously asking.
Btw.. Car pulls hard with the tbird ecu, intercooler, and cossie housing! Nice T5, square beam, supra diff, and big brakes. Pretty badass setup!

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john vanlandingham
One thing this detour has taught us---Calgary machine shop and parts prices are ridiculous...

Yep, there are almost no machinists up here working on cars. (I'm sure I could have found a bit better prices, but not much)

Parts prices are not from here, they are from EEuro or Partsforsaabs, which most of the time is well within the price of rockauto, but they have way more reasonable shipping rates to up here, which make them cheaper.

To be honest on the whole motor selection: I would go with what's actually AVAILABLE. And will be for a long time. After all the saab stuff, its frustrating trying to find something obscure. If the 8v on the XR toasts itself, and I can't readily find 2 to replace it, It'd be worth the cost of entry to put together a duratec and all the associated stuff since there are tons of them around.

John, building a motor is a skill many people don't have. Period. Yes, you may be able to spout off all of the different parts that you need to build up a custom motor with this part from this year car and that part from some other year car. Many people cannot. Even if you give them the list of parts they do not trust their mechanical skills to build a motor.

Personally that motor has tons of value as it is factory designed to the lowest common denominator. And it is brand new. I can fill up the car at the pump at the rally and if I get some so-so fuel the car will still run. Might not be well but I will not need a new motor. And if I don't have weeks of time and clean work space and the specialized tools to build a motor and or measure used parts so that I know they are good. This is a known good option as you could assume that many of the parts on this package are new and will survive without the need to carry a bunch of spares.

Is it more $$ than a parts bin motor, yes. Is it more money than a DNF and second parts bin motor because the amateur engine builder made a mistake or the tune was off, or the fuel was not perfect, probably not.

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frumby
This thread is completely derailed JV.
Question on your Duratec suggestion for merkur. Has anyone done it? The reason I ask is that my engine is basically stock, but there was so much engineering involved in getting the stock motor to work with the new engine mounts, intercooler plumbing, and alternator mount.
The idea of going to a Duratec someday is attractive, but not if it takes massive r&d and $$ to make it work. I'm seriously asking.
Btw.. Car pulls hard with the tbird ecu, intercooler, and cossie housing! Nice T5, square beam, supra diff, and big brakes. Pretty badass setup!

Re-railed, smashed thru the bride and plunged 200 feet into Dead Mans Canyon and swept away down the River of no return.

Maybe the best thing to do is copy and paste the original question and try again..

Army-dog Adam Escott in KY
Flying Grunt Timbo in CA
and 'lectrical genius Tony W in Chi Chi town are all shoving in Duratecs and I've been doing so stuff in support...---which reminds me I have to check on flywheels---making 3 steel flywheels for them..

Thing is even with the limited experience I have with these Lima Turbos--only have done "major freshen" on maybe 8-10--in 8-10 motors (and maybe 4-5 more stripped down) you do some trends... In 1 (one) were there worn bearings---in that case mains and they were the worse mains I have ever seen, ever in a car that had been running, not 'sploded up.
That was Seattle Scott Koch's beater street car...
Fix was easy enough: I gave him one of the 5 checked out---miked and cleaned--cranks I had laying around...

THAT is part of the attraction---its a strong but crude engine but so common that if I am in a good mood the parts are literally free--to a good home.

Your insanely expensive solutions unfortunately we're in large part genius designer who despite never making a part for these unilaterally changed every single part ever asked to burn out...fabbed and welded in things without engine and parts in place , without mainfolds and hoses in place.....and then obstinancy in "fixing" the problems---rather than throwing the junk out ..

I sincerely apologize for my part in the fiasco in introducing you.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

JV,
You're right that said engineer of parts did cost me some money, the end of that was just a drop in the proverbial bucket. The real problem was that it cost an entire year, and then I moved to Hawaii, which necessitated paying an expensive shop to do the work. Lots of the work was stuff I couldn't have done anyway, but some I could have.
The bottom line seems to be that when you change stuff other stuff may not work anymore, or things don't line up just right. Unless you have the skills, tools, and time, it becomes prohibitive for many guys.
Car's log booked, still needs skid plate and underbody. Rally computer, intercom, gauges.

Quote
frumby
This thread is completely derailed JV.
Question on your Duratec suggestion for merkur. Has anyone done it? The reason I ask is that my engine is basically stock, but there was so much engineering involved in getting the stock motor to work with the new engine mounts, intercooler plumbing, and alternator mount.
The idea of going to a Duratec someday is attractive, but not if it takes massive r&d and $$ to make it work. I'm seriously asking.
Btw.. Car pulls hard with the tbird ecu, intercooler, and cossie housing! Nice T5, square beam, supra diff, and big brakes. Pretty badass setup!

Click the youtube link at the bottom of the vid above to actually watch it on youtube so you can look at the specs in the description and comments...



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I often wonder if any car PM Motorsports has built has ever driven. I've only ever seen videos of their cars stationary.

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Quote
NoCoast
I often wonder if any car PM Motorsports has built has ever driven. I've only ever seen videos of their cars stationary.

I would like to state for the record that I have actually seen your Merkur move. And even race. Of course, that was six years ago.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

Quote
NoCoast
I often wonder if any car PM Motorsports has built has ever driven. I've only ever seen videos of their cars stationary.

I'm not really familiar with that shop just found it on the net..but the cars sorta moving in this vid:





Not so sure about the craftsmanship and layout(or those wheels-yuk!) but here's the actual link to the car:

http://www.pmmotorsportsny.com/sooyung.html





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Support your Local North American Rally Forum!!

While they are still around-and get the hell off Farsebook!!

We still have Specialstage & RallyAnarchy.

Post up Here:

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and here:

https://www.specialstage.com/forums/forum.php

Quote
hoche

Quote
NoCoast
I often wonder if any car PM Motorsports has built has ever driven. I've only ever seen videos of their cars stationary.

I would like to state for the record that I have actually seen your Merkur move. And even race. Of course, that was six years ago.

Didn't I even stop to see if you guys needed help in the Eclipse also that year? So you've seen it move and stop! Amazing!

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Grant Hughes