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XR Build Thread

Posted by Thomas Kimsey 
NoCoast
Grant Hughes
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 06, 2016 07:20PM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
What have people done for rear stay connections to the bodywork? My local NASA inspector wont accept what is on Skye's car (1st image) and wants to see it more like the 2nd image. Is there a good way to load the strut into the cage but also make the inspector happy?

That is well more than the 40 cm^2 required by the rulebook.

I've got to deal with a few NASA scrutineers regarding rules interpretations or legalities. At least three customers I've had to intercede with the scrutineer though the first he was actually correct that the cage was not NASA legal since NASA doesn't follow FIA 253 as closely as I had thought and I hadn't read NRS book that closely since most customers were getting RA logbooks. It should be noted that the FIA revised 253 in 2014 and it now aligns with the NASA interpretation of that particular rule. (Regarding V in roof and V in rear stays being required together) That was I think our third cage.



Grant Hughes
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2016 09:06PM by NoCoast.
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 08:12AM
The NASA scrutineer isn't concerned with suspension loading into the shell and is more worried about front impact to the top of the cage loading into the rear tower towards the back of the car. Doesn't care that that lower member will be in tension and should hold things just fine.

Quote
NASA Scrutineer
A crash on the roof at the windshield would push the main hoop backwards and the backstays would not be able to stop it...They would just bend all that mess backwards. The backstays should go to plates on the top-front of the original tower so the backstays would try to compress the plate and tower in a crash.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 10:06AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
The NASA scrutineer isn't concerned with suspension loading into the shell and is more worried about front impact to the top of the cage loading into the rear tower towards the back of the car. Doesn't care that that lower member will be in tension and should hold things just fine.

Quote
NASA Scrutineer
A crash on the roof at the windshield would push the main hoop backwards and the backstays would not be able to stop it...They would just bend all that mess backwards. The backstays should go to plates on the top-front of the original tower so the backstays would try to compress the plate and tower in a crash.

That shock mount in both design--arches! mllions of arches!! and material--it is way thicker--easily 2.5 times---is the strongest thing in the car..I have some towers chopped out, Maybe aI can post a piccie, and give a measurement..... ITS fawking strong---Mr Scrut Tin Ear why do you suppose Ford did it and for FUCKS SAKE does he think a thin wheel arch or the SIDE of the tower stronger?.

Have you tried ridicule? Cause the guy is not thinking too hard.



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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 01:23PM
Remaining civil, I also explained its what Ford did on their works cars. No progress.
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NoCoast
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 01:48PM
It is not his job to theorize.loadings, it it his job to say if it is built to the rules. Plenty of people theorize ideas and worse implement them when they could very well be worse.
I'd call or email your local NRS head.



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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 02:07PM
Point to the NASA rule book:
The backstays must be attached near the roofline and near the top outer bends of the main rollbar or lateral rollbars, on both sides of the car. They must make an angle of at least 30° relative to a vertical plane, must run rearwards, must be straight, and be placed as close as practical to the interior side panels of the body shell. Although not required to do so, the backstays usually connect to the rear strut towers

Look for diagrams of homologated designs as supporting information. Go over his head if you have to.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 02:10PM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
Remaining civil, I also explained its what Ford did on their works cars. No progress.

Copy and paste the rules quoted just above and include the photos I posted and search for more.

There is no stronger place in the back of the car...Some thinking may be required.



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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 07:20PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Copy and paste the rules Morison so kindly quoted just above and include the photos I posted and search for more.

Awwww...
Thanks for playing so nicely John.
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turoc
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 07, 2016 11:13PM
Quote
NoCoast
It is not his job to theorize.loadings, it it his job to say if it is built to the rules. Plenty of people theorize ideas and worse implement them when they could very well be worse.
I'd call or email your local NRS head.

This has been the trend lately. Rules don't mean much anymore its what the scrutineer feels like that moment. There are at least a couple of cars that were rejected prior to an event although they were grandfathered in. One ended up re-caging cause the same scrutineer as above decided it was not safe yet that very car won a national championship a few years back...



rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 07:57AM
Quote
turoc
Quote
NoCoast
It is not his job to theorize.loadings, it it his job to say if it is built to the rules. Plenty of people theorize ideas and worse implement them when they could very well be worse.
I'd call or email your local NRS head.

This has been the trend lately. Rules don't mean much anymore its what the scrutineer feels like that moment. There are at least a couple of cars that were rejected prior to an event although they were grandfathered in. One ended up re-caging cause the same scrutineer as above decided it was not safe yet that very car won a national championship a few years back...

Has anyone gone above his head to get a logbook?
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 08:50AM
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
The NASA scrutineer isn't concerned with suspension loading into the shell and is more worried about front impact to the top of the cage loading into the rear tower towards the back of the car. Doesn't care that that lower member will be in tension and should hold things just fine.

Quote
NASA Scrutineer
A crash on the roof at the windshield would push the main hoop backwards and the backstays would not be able to stop it...They would just bend all that mess backwards. The backstays should go to plates on the top-front of the original tower so the backstays would try to compress the plate and tower in a crash.

Student or Teacher (engineer or hippy?) Both great people but sometimes they do go a little OTT. Getting a logbook on the westcoast was so easy.
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Thomas Kimsey
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 09:17AM
Quote
DexterVW
Quote
Thomas Kimsey
The NASA scrutineer isn't concerned with suspension loading into the shell and is more worried about front impact to the top of the cage loading into the rear tower towards the back of the car. Doesn't care that that lower member will be in tension and should hold things just fine.

Quote
NASA Scrutineer
A crash on the roof at the windshield would push the main hoop backwards and the backstays would not be able to stop it...They would just bend all that mess backwards. The backstays should go to plates on the top-front of the original tower so the backstays would try to compress the plate and tower in a crash.

Student or Teacher (engineer or hippy?) Both great people but sometimes they do go a little OTT. Getting a logbook on the westcoast was so easy.
Engineer
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 10:22AM
I'm still fixing bad things that the previous owner of my car an engineer did to it.



I would rather drive a slow car fast as a fast car slow!
first rule of cars: get what makes you happy, your the one paying for it!
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MarkHille
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 11:55AM



This was the exact photo that I received in an email from Mike Hurst and Don Taylor from Rally America that they said was both their preferred method of attaching the backstays to the rear tower.

I wish Gene had not been kicked off the site because I think he would have had valuable insight on this issue. My understanding of the situation is if you do anything considered "unconventional", even if you have followed the rules to the T, the individual scrutineer is the person signing off on the vehicle and the one personally responsible (whatever that ultimately means is up for interpretation) if something happens. If you do the cage in the "conventional" manner and even if the cage may "look/ feel/ whatever" dangerous, there is little power for the scrutineer to say no. I'm no expert but I have been in contact with numerous people with both NASA and RA about this very issue. My cage has been deemed legal everywhere except on the east coast in RA. Don wants me to add two bars and then he would be fine with it.
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Re: XR Build Thread
June 08, 2016 03:43PM
I've been going back and forth on this topic all day (damn slow day in Solidworks land): on one hand they should scrutineer to the rules, not ad in FIA regs or extra tubes, but on the other hand it's your life they are signing on... it's not really a tough if I was in their shoes. A few extra tubes is 40-50 bucks of material and time... where's the fight really?
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