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VW MK2 Motor Mounts

Posted by anakilat 
anakilat
Alan Hoppe (sr)
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VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 12, 2014 10:35PM
I read an old post that referred to 5 engine mounting points on a mk2. I've got an 89 GTI/16v that has the normal 3 plus the damper off the passenger side of the engine. I don't know if that's 4 of the 5, or if the 5 mounting points are different. Can anyone share some info on this?



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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 13, 2014 03:33AM
Don't know of anyone using five. Mk1's (Rabbits, Sciroccos, etc) use four - a front, a rear mounted in the middle, one that goes to the frame rail about where that damper is, and one that goes to the frame rail on the transmission side. The brackets for those bolt right on, but of course you'd have to fab up the frame rail mounts.

Most people just use the stock ones for the Mk2's. Some tips if you go that route:
1) Ditch the damper. It's mostly to reduce vibration passed to the occupants and doesn't really do anything else but add weight.
2) If you have a later Mk2, ditch the damping block located on the front crossmember. It's quite literally just a square block of weight. It was only on some Mk2's so you may not have it.
3) Don't use the hydraulic front damper from the later Mk2's. That looks like a flying saucer, and is filled with gel. The idea is that gel is soft enough to absorb vibrations at low revs and stiffens up at high ones. What actually happens is that when you come crashing in on the nose, the thing squishes, rebounds, and rips itself apart. Then you have no front motor mount and one (or both) of the rears will immediately fail. Instead, get a vertical front mount from one of the earlier Mk2's (I think it might be the same as on the Mk1's). It looks like a hockey puck rolling on edge with a bolt running through it. You can run it stock, or if you like, fill the gaps with durethane. Or just replace the rubber with hockey pucks.
4) By all means, reinforce the arm that comes off the transmission and runs straight back to the mount on the subframe. The one that's bolted onto the fifth-gear housing with two bolts. It's just stamped steel and is prone to bending. If it bends, the transmission won't fall out of the car or anything, but you'll find that the arm that holds the shift linkage will break. That's the piece that bolts onto the diff casing with three bolts. It's more fragile than it looks and will fracture and then you'll have all kinds of issues getting it into gear.
5) The main motor mount looks puny but is actually pretty strong. The only time I've ever broken one is when I've had one of the other two fail, usually caused by a chain of events that started with "well, I was being stupid, and..."

You can also get fancy aftermarket mounts for it still, I think. I've heard Vibratech ones are pretty good but I don't have first-hand experience with them. I've known a couple of people who've used a solid front mount too. I don't like those for rally because they don't seem to be able to hand shock well and I've seen a couple of people rip them right out of their mounts, but who knows what they were doing at the time.



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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 13, 2014 03:39AM
After I posted that, it occurred to me that the five "mounting points" could be the following:

1) The rear main, going to the crossmember
2) The damper going to the frame rail (not actually a mount)
3) The front
4) The arm coming off the transmission going straight back to the crossmember
5) The shift linkage bracket that also goes to #4's bolt on the crossmember (not actually a mount, although it looks like it should be)

I'm not sure though, at least not without looking at the post you're referring to.



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anakilat
Alan Hoppe (sr)
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 13, 2014 09:21AM
Doh! I can't find the post again. I think it was a post about breaking axles and JVL was making a point about old factory teams using 5 motor mounts because holding the engine still was that important.

I finally got it on the ground and running yesterday and when I parked it after a very short run it splatted oil from the front mount. Previous owner assured me he had replaced the torn front mount bracket and the mount itself. I'm guessing he used a mount from the junkyard too.

I haven't found an older style mount bracket at the junkyard yet, I've read they're NLA new, so I'll have to do something else for now. I'm not really convinced the solid front mount is the right design for the same reasons you give (ie. pulling out of the crossmember). I would want a different/stronger crossmember or a triangular base to spread the pulling force over a wider area, maybe even have a backer plate.

I like your suggestion to reinforce the transaxle mount arm. I'd like to connect the mounting points at both ends directly to the frame. I might be able to chop up my spare mounting arm for the front mount and a simple piece of angle iron with a gusset and a few holes will work for the back. I think I'll play with that idea. That would give me the 5th mounting point too.

Any comments on changing the damper to a solid bar?



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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 13, 2014 11:09PM
Um...so I dug out my "GOLF GTI 16V Gruppe A" manual, and started looking around at the motor mounts. The front mount is something I've never seen before - a bracket with a rubber bushing that's mounted longitudinally. But it's clearly marked as rubber, so they must've felt that having some compliance there is necessary.

They don't seem to mention the main motor mount or any bracketry for it, but if you look at the pictures of Mark Lovell's Grp A Rallye Golf (http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21906/lot/361/), you can clearly see that there's something welded onto the frame rail right there. That car dates from after this manual by a couple of years though.

This manual also mentions a "torque bar" that appears to be fastened onto the head somehow. They don't show how, but it sort of looks like the pitch-stopper that's standard on Subarus, and probably goes to the firewall somewhere. That might be the mysterious fifth mount.

On the transmission side, they don't show the whole mount, but they show that there's a bracket that bolts onto the fifth gear housing, where the two-bolt ears for the current arm are. The orientation leads me to believe it was for a frame rail bracket, but if so it was custom. It doesn't look like the stock Rabbit mount at all (the rubber bushing is a lot smaller).



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 01:41PM
I'm currently running the Black Forrest Industries solid front motor mount. You may want to reinforce the front cross member so it doesn't crack it, but that noodle should be reinforced anyways.

Reinforcing the transmission mount as mentioned above is another great idea.

If you need a mk2 early front mount let me know, I might have one floating around in the parts pile... somewhere.

Michel, do you have any scans or a digital copy of the 16v GpA manual?
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hoche
Michel Hoche-Mong
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 02:43PM
I don't think the front crosspiece needs to be reinforced if you have a rubber damper there, but feel free to add more weight to your car.

Robert, I definitely have a printout of a bad scan. I should have the original pdf of the bad scan, but I'll have to dig around. I may not have saved it because it used to be readily available on vwmotorsport.com.



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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 03:39PM
Quote
hoche
I don't think the front crosspiece needs to be reinforced if you have a rubber damper there, but feel free to add more weight to your car.

On the solid aluminum mounts, they have been known to crack where the mount meets the cross member. I have never had one happen, but the internet says otherwise. Maybe I just need to be harder on my car? Maybe it's only happening to the stanced'd VW crowd...?
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Towona
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 05:06PM
I have the scanned pdf. Email me at towona at gee male dawt calm


Correction... It appears I have the 16v one



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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2014 05:15PM by Towona.
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 06:56PM
There's a lot of Group A GTI info at clubgti.com. Lots of transverse VW motorsports info in general, too. People there seem to be more concerned with trying to deduce what cylinder head casting was used on X car from various photos, and not cosmetic parking lot ornament crap.

Here's one, for instance - lots of reference photos and diagrams. http://www.clubgti.com/showthread.php?255799-Gruppe-A-VWMSification-for-a-MkII



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Erik Christiansen
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 14, 2014 11:06PM
I used to co-own (with Eddie Fiorelli) a mk2 VW that was prepped by Salty for the US factory VW team in the 1980's. It had an additional mount from the end of the 5th gear housing to the frame horn. I wish I had pictures of it, but back then (13 years ago) we didn't fully understand what we had.

In my current car, I run an old style front mount filled with urethane. Works great. I have never reinforced the front cross member, and never had any issues there. My skidplate even mounts to it with no problems.

I've heard that solid aluminum mounts break under rally conditions from a few people, but I have no first hand experience. Don't know if it was the BFI mount, or a different one. Robert, how many rallies on your mount?
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Towona
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 15, 2014 09:36AM
When I bought my car it already had the urethane filled oem mounts installed. I never had an issue with them nor the oem front x-member. The car however, didn't (and still doesn't) have the arm/brace that goes from atop the 5th gear housing back to the rear trans mount installed. Should I?



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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 15, 2014 10:31AM
I'd have to find the picture, but I built a torque mount, down very low, that ran from a bracket on the back side of the engine block to mounting tabs welded into the subframe, a "dogbone" engine brace. That was on the Golf build for the Mosers, now owned by the Robinsons.

-Jon
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Robert Culbertson
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 15, 2014 10:36AM
Quote
Erik Christiansen

In my current car, I run an old style front mount filled with urethane. Works great. I have never reinforced the front cross member, and never had any issues there. My skidplate even mounts to it with no problems.

I've heard that solid aluminum mounts break under rally conditions from a few people, but I have no first hand experience. Don't know if it was the BFI mount, or a different one. Robert, how many rallies on your mount?

Good to know. Sounds like the cross member is fine from the factory.

I have zero stage miles on my car. But I have 1000mi of road racing, multiple rally crosses, and about 4k in commuting/fun miles.
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fliz
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Re: VW MK2 Motor Mounts
July 15, 2014 01:56PM
Quote
Towona
When I bought my car it already had the urethane filled oem mounts installed. I never had an issue with them nor the oem front x-member. The car however, didn't (and still doesn't) have the arm/brace that goes from atop the 5th gear housing back to the rear trans mount installed. Should I?

So the whole transmission is just hanging out there w/ no support? Seems like a bad idea/good way to crack the case.

My car I had stock rear mount, Burmeister front (almost solid old-style, about half inch of urethane between two aluminum chunks), and both rear trans mounts were reinforced. AL welded perpendicular to the diff mount, square bar welded to the top of the 5th housing mount.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2014 01:59PM by fliz.
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