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Mk2 vw transmission ratios?

Posted by Kurt Thiel 
lapinGTI
Nicolas La Branche
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
August 18, 2014 04:57PM
Hi you're looking for a diff, I have a VW motorsport for 020 gear box (not the gemini, but the GF). PM if interest.



Rabbit GTI 84. Rally, GR2.
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Kurt Thiel
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
August 18, 2014 05:18PM
I am interested, what kind of condition? what ratios? how much? and i see your from Qubec, are you going to defi? i may be able to pick it up if you are. Kurt.
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
August 18, 2014 06:12PM
Quote
lapinGTI
Hi you're looking for a diff, I have a VW motorsport for 020 gear box (not the gemini, but the GF). PM if interest.

What era is it from? Ratios? Clutch plate diff?



John Vanlandingham
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lapinGTI
Nicolas La Branche
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
August 18, 2014 06:52PM
Hi,

It's from mk2 erea, it's a Goeorge Fisher part number: 020 409 122 VWM

Clutch type. Saddly can't post the PDF doc from VW Motorsport, and It's no longer available from VW-Motorsport veb site??? If interested I can send a copy. 2,5 MO.

Not Going to Defi

Here some pics:


By lapingti at 2011-02-11


By lapingti at 2011-02-11


By lapingti at 2011-02-11


By lapingti at 2011-02-11


By lapingti at 2011-02-11


By lapingti at 2011-02-11



Rabbit GTI 84. Rally, GR2.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2014 08:26AM by lapinGTI.
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lapinGTI
Nicolas La Branche
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
August 18, 2014 07:09PM
Here Pic of the pages 41 and 42 from the VW motorsport 16V workshop manual from 1989.



Rabbit GTI 84. Rally, GR2.
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Attachments:
open | download - VW diff VW Golf GTI 16V workshop manual P41.png (44.5 KB)
VW diff VW Golf GTI 16V workshop manual P41.png
open | download - VW diff VW Golf GTI 16V workshop manual P42.png (56.6 KB)
VW diff VW Golf GTI 16V workshop manual P42.png
ReluctantGolf
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
October 27, 2014 11:51AM
Quote
wildert


If you only rev to 6500 (8V maybe?) then the numbers get better.
1st to 2nd is "only" 2850 rpm, and 2nd to 3rd is just under 1800 rpm. Top speed is around 110 mph with the 195/50-15 tire.


Brian, thanks for this info. I am VERY new to the engineering behind gear ratios and wheel sizes etc so I had a couple of question for you and the rest of the aces around here. I downloaded your sheet and it had the actual ratios you bought which is great. Here are my questions:

1. If I follow your sheet and substitute the 3.94 Fd with a 3.67 which is very common around here, I notice that you get higher top speeds but the RPM drops are about the same as if using the 3.94 FD. Is there any other disadvantages to going with a 3.67 vs a 3.94 using the 1.68, 1.35 and 1.17 MTS gears you had for 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively?

2. What is my best option if I am running an 8v in a mk2 with 14inch wheels (175/70/14)? would it be the 3.67 option with the gears you got above?

thanks!
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wildert
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
October 27, 2014 02:39PM
Quote
ReluctantGolf
Brian, thanks for this info. I am VERY new to the engineering behind gear ratios and wheel sizes etc so I had a couple of question for you and the rest of the aces around here. I downloaded your sheet and it had the actual ratios you bought which is great.

No sweat man - that's what we are here for smiling smiley.

Quote

1. If I follow your sheet and substitute the 3.94 Fd with a 3.67 which is very common around here, I notice that you get higher top speeds but the RPM drops are about the same as if using the 3.94 FD.

They are not "about the same" - they are THE same - that is the whole point...
The FD only changes the speed at any given RPM, in any given gear.

Quote

Is there any other disadvantages to going with a 3.67 vs a 3.94 using the 1.68, 1.35 and 1.17 MTS gears you had for 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively?

Well yes - you'll get less multiplication of the power of the engine, at the wheels => less actual power at the wheels at any given RPM, in any given gear. That in turn equals less ability to accelerate.
Obviously if you can use the actual top speed of the 3.67 - like ALL the time - then it is worth while.
But if you only are to hit the limiter with the 3.94 every once in a while - let alone what that would be with the 3.67, then from a performance point of view, you would be worse off with the 3.67 vs. the 3.94.

Quote

2. What is my best option if I am running an 8v in a mk2 with 14inch wheels (175/70/14)? would it be the 3.67 option with the gears you got above?

Well - you can put 175/70-14 into the sheet. If you do, you will notice that the top speed at the limiter in each gear, does not change much from the 195/50-15 that is in the sheet.

Secondly - it really depends on what you are going to do with the car, the level of tune of the engine, etc.
The actual 3rd, 4th and 5th from MTS makes for a pretty decent half breed close ratio gearbox. No particular need to change them as such. So point of interest is more in the FD-area.

Here you should go for the lowest FD (highest ratio/ie. number) that gives you a top speed that is still sufficient that you wont be bouncing off the limiter all the time.
BUT! Do recall that cars lige the R5 and S2000's actually have FD's that give them a top speed of as little as ~100 mph. And we are talking cars with in excess of 250 bhp.

Now, European rally roads may slightly less like a highway compared to yours, but having the engine at the rev limiter for a few hundred meters even every stage, may be worth it, given that every single one of ALL the other accelerations will be more efficient.

We are lacking a few informations about state of tune/future plans, type of event, etc., to give any more sound advice.
But if I were to guess, I would think that 6500 rpm is a reasonable red line. It's a 8V and you are in rallyX, thus probably not the hottest tune out there. Secondly a VERY low top speed could be usable with rallyX. May be something as low as 70 mph could be usable.

"My" setup with the 3rd , 4th and 5th that I chose, but with the 3.64, would give you a top speed at around 108 mph with your tire. I think that is too much actually. It is in the area of what I have now with my 7500 rpm red line, and now that I have driven this transmission in anger a few times, I would trade the slightly lower top speed for better acceleration.

Guessing from what I read here and elsewhere, it could be pretty good for an 8V on North American rally stages though.

3.97 yields around 100 mph which is still far from 70 mph.
4.25 which is also a stock part, gives you a 92 mph top speed.
After that, you are in motorsports territory, and prices start to increase.
My old 4.64 gives 85 mph - but the price of the 4.64 is much different.

An alternative could be different 3rd, 4th and 5th - there alternatives that gives lower top speed AND smaller gaps in rpm at the same time.

But the availability of the FD shouldn't worry you too much, if you are going to order the 3rd., 4th and 5th from MTS anyway. They can set you up with just about any FD you like at the same time.



Brgrds
Brian

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ReluctantGolf
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
October 27, 2014 03:19PM
Brian,

Thanks! I think I follow you regarding being quicker inside of the the max speed that we need for our stage rallys here in the u.s. I realistically will probably only do 2 or 3 rallys at most per year and they are NEFR, Black River and possibly one other gravel type rally. I have never done a rally but have worked and crewed for teams at NEFR so I still have a lot to learn about how these other ones are in terms of pace/speed and suspension and brake demands.

You are right, my little 8v is basically stock with a slightly more agressive cam and chip but thats pretty much it for now. It sounds like the 4.25 FD with the gears you used in the sheet are the ticket for me to both maximize my acceleration while at the same time saving some $$$.

I appreciate the help and hopefully will have something to report once I get these gears and have the tranny installed!

thank you!

- Kevin
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
October 29, 2015 09:20PM
Wildis.... I gear my car for about 170 km/hr @ 7150 varv/min
It is 4 speed...I use 62cm Michelin 14-62 x 15---a tire made in heaven....
Final drive is old school 5.43, top is 0,92
Works great in North America...beat most PGT and even PGT (kinda Group N turbo 4wd but is Mistubitchy shells nobody else used--or "stock" Celica All-Trac reigning national champion--not just beat but caught on SS in roughly 7.5 km...that with little V4)

VW water cool is perfectly happy making 7000-7200 rpm

The primary thing I have problems getting guys to understand is that we want the cars to KEEP accelerating all the way to say 105/6 mph which is 170 km/hr..

Any speed above that is less advantage--because it is so seldomly seen----than more 3rd and 4th gear ax.

No point in pissing away 3rd and 4th (and 5th if you have these modern things) ax, it is the decisive thing.

Now Steve is up in Canada and they traditionally have somewhat faster roads.. So maybe top speed closer to 110 mph would be OK..


(wonder what we call "ax" (svensk för acceleration...jag brukar säga ''yank'' which mean a sharp pull++have pity Wildert and help me with what to call AX!)



John Vanlandingham
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wildert
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
November 02, 2015 05:44AM
Not to sound like an ass - but was there a question in there?

Well - except for the language one? And for the record, I don't know of a Danish equivalent of "ax" - an certainly not of an English smiling smiley.

I can give a slight update on the transmisson though.
I have just returned from our national championship finals, and for the first time ever, I actually had a use for the top speed.

We hit the limiter (7500-7600 rpm) quite a few times in 5th this weekend, and it equates to 175-176 kph. (not mph).

I think I may have bent a shift fork, since shifting has become a bit clunky, and got worse over the weekend.
My 1 year old modified shift linkage may be putting a fair amount of pressure on the internals, when doing those downshifts from 5th to 2nd, coming down to a chicane from +100 mph.

So, since the season is over for us anyway, I am opening the tranny over winter, fitting new synchros once in there, and checking forks and sleeves.

I am still contemplating whether to change my 3.9-something FD for a 4.25 when overhauling the internals, because even though we hit the limiter a few times this weekend, I still think that the better "ax" from the 4.25 is more beneficial overall.



Brgrds
Brian





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2015 05:44AM by wildert.
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ElectroTech
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
November 05, 2015 06:19PM
Quote
wildert
Not to sound like an ass - but was there a question in there?

Well - except for the language one? And for the record, I don't know of a Danish equivalent of "ax" - an certainly not of an English smiling smiley.

I can give a slight update on the transmisson though.
I have just returned from our national championship finals, and for the first time ever, I actually had a use for the top speed.

We hit the limiter (7500-7600 rpm) quite a few times in 5th this weekend, and it equates to 175-176 kph. (not mph).

I think I may have bent a shift fork, since shifting has become a bit clunky, and got worse over the weekend.
My 1 year old modified shift linkage may be putting a fair amount of pressure on the internals, when doing those downshifts from 5th to 2nd, coming down to a chicane from +100 mph.

So, since the season is over for us anyway, I am opening the tranny over winter, fitting new synchros once in there, and checking forks and sleeves.

I am still contemplating whether to change my 3.9-something FD for a 4.25 when overhauling the internals, because even though we hit the limiter a few times this weekend, I still think that the better "ax" from the 4.25 is more beneficial overall.
If you know of anyone with a 16V 020 4.20 FD let me know, I'm of the same mind, quick is better than fast. Did the math, 10 miles of straight away at 120 is 5 mins, at 105 its 5 mins 40s, when you get more pluck out of every corner I doubt those 40s would ever matter, nor would you likely see 10miles of top speed anyways.



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wildert
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
November 11, 2015 02:37AM
Quote
ElectroTech
If you know of anyone with a 16V 020 4.20 FD let me know, I'm of the same mind, quick is better than fast. Did the math, 10 miles of straight away at 120 is 5 mins, at 105 its 5 mins 40s, when you get more pluck out of every corner I doubt those 40s would ever matter, nor would you likely see 10miles of top speed anyways.

Isn't the 4.20 a VWMS-item?
Those are kinda rare smiling smiley.

I use a 8V pinion shaft as it is now anyway, so I can go for the stock 4.25 that was available in some diesels.
Not overly common, but not that hard to get.



Brgrds
Brian

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ElectroTech
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Re: Mk2 vw transmission ratios?
November 11, 2015 07:50AM
Quote
wildert
Quote
ElectroTech
If you know of anyone with a 16V 020 4.20 FD let me know, I'm of the same mind, quick is better than fast. Did the math, 10 miles of straight away at 120 is 5 mins, at 105 its 5 mins 40s, when you get more pluck out of every corner I doubt those 40s would ever matter, nor would you likely see 10miles of top speed anyways.

Isn't the 4.20 a VWMS-item?
Those are kinda rare smiling smiley.

I use a 8V pinion shaft as it is now anyway, so I can go for the stock 4.25 that was available in some diesels.
Not overly common, but not that hard to get.
My issue is that I have a 1.43 VWMS 4th gear with the larger 16V splines on the pinion shaft. So I would have to get an 8V 1.43 from MTS and then I could use my 8V 3.94 gearing which is what I'd prefer over 4.20, but VWMS never made a 16V 3.94 R&P. Otherwise it may come to combining my 8V 4ths centre with the VWMS 16V outer, it would be simple if the stock gears weren't hollowed out since the Gemini stuff is uniform thickness.



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