Notes from scratch.

Re: Notes from scratch.

OjNK — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 13:11:18 -0600

Quote
Ferdinand
Sometimes during recce a driver will call a corner a R5 (for example) when you might think it's actually a R4. You might think the driver is always right, the codriver is always wrong, so just write it down as the driver sees it. But when it comes to that point during the rally and you're calling the notes at speed, you call it as written R5, but see what you actually think is really a R4, then you're going to hesitate thinking you might be lost in the notes or might have made a mistake. That's why it's important that you both agree on the system being used, and you both use it consistently.

I backwards-learned this one my second season when I was still driving vs co-driving. I did an event where I was a little anxious after a previous minor off and I wanted to control my speeds on the stage so during recce I called to my co-driver (who was also quite new) most of the corners 1 grade harsher than I actually felt they were. The event was HORRIBLE. When it came to actually running the stages I didn't trust any of the notes and I pretty much ran the event blind. Don't do that. :) Establish a consistent language for each type of instruction and stick with it. If there's some factor to the corner (surface, camber, water, etc) call that rather than changing the corner. Thats my $.02 anyway.

Also I've found it really helpful now as I've switched to mostly co-driving to pepper instructions with 'landmarks'. 'Big Rock', 'Water outside' and marking most road intersection/junctions. I find these a lot more useful to get myself back on track when I'm off-notes than mileages since I never ever consistently remember to mark mileages down during recce. (I'd pay good money for a rally odo that had an option to beep every .5/1km to remind me to take those notes!)

Most of the comfort in taking notes comes with experience. Keep it simpler at first, and grow your detail/language as you get faster.

Re: Notes from scratch.

hoche — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 21:00:05 -0600

Quote
steevano61
Also note every instruction from the route book (they will be marked on the stage by a stake/arrow with the corresponding instruction number) in your notes!

Stakes/arrows are much less common now than they used to be. If the event has them, great, but don't rely on that.

If you're just hopping in with a driver that's already established and he/she asks you to drop the +'s and -'s, go with that. If you're working to develop the driver, or have other long-term plans to work as a team, don't drop them. It's better in the long run if you run your first few events slightly slower and steadily work to increase your driver's ability to process the information.

The rest is pretty OK advice.

Re: Notes from scratch.

steevano61 — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:37:35 -0600

Here's a couple sites to check out:
http://rallynotes.com/2008/01/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-rally-notes/
http://www.andrewbargery.com/codrive.htm

The most important thing to remember is that you write the notes with regard to how the driver perceives it. You might call a straight section 100 but the driver see it as 80, whats important is the drivers POV. On RECCE have the driver call the shots.

You mentioned the tape on the steering wheel, thats how I was taught by Craig Drew/David Higgins and it works very well. I would personally drop the + and - from corners for your/drivers first couple events because the reality is he/she will realistically be driving 80% by what they see since you haven't developed a trust/bond that only comes from seat time together.

A couple things to seriously note (or you'll be spending more time than you'd like with a sweep crew) is crests into corners (you will get light on the suspension from the crest and the car will not hook up like it normally would with the suspension loaded, you'll lose traction and have a date with a ditch) and turns that tighten (R5>4).

Absolutely make notations for downhills, newbies and downhills dont play well together!

Also note every instruction from the route book (they will be marked on the stage by a stake/arrow with the corresponding instruction number) in your notes! It is not a question of IF you will get off your notes (lost) at some point but WHEN and how many times you will during an event. Do not be afraid or hesitate to tell your driver "I'm Off on the Notes" immediately!!! As soon as you realize your off, start looking for the next instruction stake/marker and also find it in your notes. As soon as you see the stake/marker, you'll be back on place in your notes.

good luck

Re: Notes from scratch.

Ferdinand — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:37:19 -0600

It doesn't matter what system you use, so long as you use it consistently and both the driver and co-driver agree with the way each corner is described.

Sometimes during recce a driver will call a corner a R5 (for example) when you might think it's actually a R4. You might think the driver is always right, the codriver is always wrong, so just write it down as the driver sees it. But when it comes to that point during the rally and you're calling the notes at speed, you call it as written R5, but see what you actually think is really a R4, then you're going to hesitate thinking you might be lost in the notes or might have made a mistake. That's why it's important that you both agree on the system being used, and you both use it consistently.

The tape system on the steering wheel is just a handy way to help consistently rate corners. You could simply have just three positions marked to each side, easy, medium, tight left or right. Or you could divided it into any number of gradations that you prefer. But for sake of harmonizing with the Jemba style supplied notes provided in most American rallies it makes sense to use the 1-6 rating system, with 1 being the tightest and 6 being the straighest.

When you're just starting out, it's probably enough information to keep it very simple with only fast, medium, or tight corners. Too much info is going to overwhelm the driver (or codriver) if you're struggling to keep up, and then you'll stop listening to each other.

But, as you get more familiar with your note system, and start to drive faster, you'll realize that a 1-6 scale is not nearly enough, as some corners are slightly faster than a 4 but not yet as fast as a 5. Hence then need for a 4+ or a 5- to give an even finer gradation.

Here's a pretty good video explaining the principle.

Re: Notes from scratch.

BobOfTheFuture — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 01:35:23 -0600

No sir. We were doing the last pass and somebody got stuck a few cars up, and bunched up the field. We stopped as normal, and when the road cleared we couldn't get it into gear anymore.

Turned out the clutch slave was leaking badly. Sure enough its a shared reservoir with the brakes so it wasn't a good idea to keep going, And the part wasn't available within any sort of reasonable distance.

Luckily, Registration was the next morning, So I think the driver got a refund.

Re: Notes from scratch.

alkun — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:58:35 -0600

you didn't roll on recce did you?

Re: Notes from scratch.

BobOfTheFuture — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:28:24 -0600

Ozgur! Thanks for your help this weekend!

So, we ended up just going at it with a blank sheet. Jacob called them out, and I added details as needed. For the second pass we moved a bit quicker and they seemed to be mostly without surprises, other then the 1 or 2 times I wrote a corner number without a direction.

Unfortunately despite yours and our efforts we didn't get past the last pass of recce...

Re: Notes from scratch.

turoc — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 09:09:22 -0600

Quote
MConte05
Corner grades don't change with the surface. Just how you attack it. I wouldn't attack an L3 on glare ice like I would on dry gravel, however the corner itself would still be the same.

The notes from 2014 should be at least a good basic starting point.

Actually they do! It all depends on how the roads are plowed. This year the WMWR roads were wider so didn't make as much of a difference but last year we had to down grade bunch of the notes.

Using the summer notes and modifying them would have been the way to go or Jacob could have called me and you guys could have copied my notes. I think i ran this event the most - well at least recce :)

Re: Notes from scratch.

Clayto — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 23:52:51 -0600

Lemme guess.. You're going in with Jacob?:)

Re: Notes from scratch.

Jard — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 16:04:42 -0600

lol

Some good proper funny shit in here.

Find me in Wellsboro, I might actually need to hitch a ride for recce, but that's a different story. Taking the 2014 stage notes and making changes to them based on recce is my advice since this is your first event. That will be what you are going to get at 100% of other NASA/RA events on the east coast after you finish this.

The biggest thing is distances - what does 100 look like at recce speed vs. racing

When you write notes you aren't writing stage notes (Jemba are stage notes, they describe the road) you are writing pace notes (how should I drive the road). IMHO you'll be better off with stage notes here.

I should be getting to the Fairgrounds around 2pm tomorrow.

Jared
703-625-6534 (text is fine whenever)

Re: Notes from scratch.

BobOfTheFuture — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 12:04:59 -0600

Quote
Anders Green
You guys are all overthinking this.

Bottom line: this is a skill. You have to practice it to become adept. So, go try it and see what happens.

You sound like a bunch of 14 year olds all trying to explain to each other what it's like to have sex when everyone in the whole group is virgins. ;)

Anders

Anders, Give it up. The real pros use Klingon don't they...

John, I'm shocked at how long it's been, I've never really thought about it.

Re: Notes from scratch.

ALS FTW — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 11:16:18 -0600

It is clear enough any system used needs to make sense to the people using it.
If most events do offer these jambo pace notes, then it make sense to mimic their syntax and style. (assuming the jambo notes use the same style from event to event)

I can't speak to others, but I didn't miss your point at all; I just disagree with it. Again, I'm one of the virgins the other guy is thinking about, but 'the point' is about how we communicate, not about pace notes exclusively.

My point was simply that if you want repeatable, predictable results you are better off to use a defined and measurable grade. If I mark my steering wheel, even with no experience I can go out and write notes where a '3' corner is a '3' corner. It might not be your '3' and it might not be the same '3' as I did at the last event, but that's ok isn't it?
Particularly with no experience, how would I know what a medium left is or what a sweeping left is. How would I make those notes as consistant as possible?
(as much as you expect to see a gigantor number 5 in the middle of the road, I'd expect to see a man with a broom on a sweeping corner.)

Quote
john vanlandingham
They will have to discuss and discover what works best...speed, road, ascending speed, descending corner and if making up a agreed upon "code" makes 'em feel better than using a few select words in phrases consistently to describe what the road will be doing in 1 to 1.5 seconds

This is worth repeating.

Re: Notes from scratch.

NoCoast — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:22:58 -0600

Who cares what you prefer or what works better.
Use a number system since that's what Jemba is and what 99% of the events you will likely run will be in.
Or try to be Irish and just scream at him to go faster the whole time and only really worry about notes on the gotcha corners.

Re: Notes from scratch.

Racinkid13 — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 10:17:58 -0600

So what do you fellas think of this site? Dunno whose it is.

http://www.jdrally.com/pacenoting

Re: Notes from scratch.

Aaron Luptak — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:54:21 -0600

Quote
MConte05

Quote
Anders Green
You sound like a bunch of 14 year olds all trying to explain to each other what it's like to have sex when everyone in the whole group is virgins. ;)

But we've watched enough videos to know right?!

My big brother said the people in those videos are just actors...

Re: Notes from scratch.

MConte05 — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 09:48:20 -0600

Quote
Anders Green
You sound like a bunch of 14 year olds all trying to explain to each other what it's like to have sex when everyone in the whole group is virgins. ;)

But we've watched enough videos to know right?!

Re: Notes from scratch.

Anders Green — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 07:06:49 -0600

You guys are all overthinking this.

Bottom line: this is a skill. You have to practice it to become adept. So, go try it and see what happens.

You sound like a bunch of 14 year olds all trying to explain to each other what it's like to have sex when everyone in the whole group is virgins. ;)

Anders

Re: Notes from scratch.

john vanlandingham — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:46:13 -0600

Quote
ALS FTW
I don't really know anything about pacenotes,
(snip)

Someone said earlier in the thread that words didn't need translating and that numbers were too abstract and didn't mean much. I think the opposite is true. Here are some examples:snip

Jeesus.
Meaning in language is subtly negotiated between speaker and listener.
Brief introduction to numbering systems heard/encounter in last 15 years:

For some people the numbers indicate:
speed in ascending order...1 is slow and 6 is fast
speed in descending order...1 is fast and 6 is slow
what kind of turn it is...1 is I don't know and 6 is a barely perceptible deviation from straight
what kind of turn it is....6 is a "severe' turn and 1 is a mere nothing.
Angle of steering input

Thus there is no intrinsic meaning to "a 2l" or "a 4R" since it could be anything the 2 people in the car decide it means...just as they could choose any other random words like in the example suggested--and chosen to perfectly illustrate the problem with use of randomly chosen words or symbols..
.It is pretty obvious that a co-drive shouting "Pannonia L opens , into Pyrenees R and Vlandern L narrows and 400 Delft R" could work just fine....but is pointlessly complicating things.

All the examples in the responses were missing the point....

No point in reinventing the whole wheel..Bob speakka da Englisch pretty good. I know because I have been talking with him for several years thru finding a car, fixing junk he's no encountered...

He's a noob in this amateur sport so's the guy he'll be riding with.
We all are.

They will have to discuss and discover what works best...speed, road, ascending speed, descending corner and if making up a agreed upon "code" makes 'em feel better than using a few select words in phrases consistently to describe what the road will be doing in 1 to 1.5 seconds

Re: Notes from scratch.

ALS FTW — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:28:21 -0600

I don't really know anything about pacenotes, but I've started to think about them as I get ready to get involved in the sport. So, I don't have a lot to say on them specifically, but I did want to comment about one aspect.

Someone said earlier in the thread that words didn't need translating and that numbers were too abstract and didn't mean much. I think the opposite is true. Here are some examples:

When assembling something with reasonable percision would you want to be told to tighten a bolt 'good and tight' or to '100 ft/lbs torq.' (would you want head bolts tightened down, good and tight)

When I was in emergency last, they would regularly ask me to rate my pain on a scale of 1 to 10. In that case it didn't matter if my 10 was someone elses 6... it was just a reference to my discomfort.

I just spend some committee work time to develop a functional specification for a project. We used a grading processs where we ranked the importance of various functions on a scale of 1-10. It helped get rid of 'loaded' valuations and helped us average out the thoughts of the committee members.

I think we all know what 'turn it up to 11' means, 'play it loud' is much less clear.

a heading of 275deg is much more specific than 'west'

But, what all of those cases, except the ER one, have in common is that the 'grade' is defined and meaningful.

This makes me think the tape on the steering wheel has some value; It serves to give you consistent grading of corners.

I do agree with the other poster that people who throw out numbers, or even words for that matter, without understanding what they are supposed to mean are headed for more trouble than success.

TLDR: Numbers are just another language.

Re: Notes from scratch.

blackboxrally — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 22:48:14 -0600

Just throwing another perspective out there: might be worth doing a run with another experienced team to see what you can learn. your notes from wwr will be very different from the STPR jemba notes due to the way they pave the road and the snowbanks. if your driver is used to numbers, I'd start with the basics, as above. if he isn't, just yell at him every time you think he's about to crash ;)

Re: Notes from scratch.

stgallagher — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 20:57:48 -0600

Driver's first event and at speed in the car?

You've never written notes before?

I'm guessing based on the weather the last couple of weeks there's going to be a Shit Load of snow.

Run the route book if there is one, if not follow the tracks. Stay on the road and finish.

Worry about notes if you run more than this event.

Re: Notes from scratch.

john vanlandingham — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 15:23:08 -0600

https://www.youtube.com/embed/62AbA1h6PY4"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>

Re: Notes from scratch.

Racinkid13 — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 14:02:10 -0600

Quote
Andrew_Frick

The tape and stuff on the steering wheel is mechanisms to help the driver call the right number the first time.

So thats what its for. I will have to do that on my personal rig just to get used to it. Some time i feel i may try my hand at navvie.

Re: Notes from scratch.

MConte05 — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:17:00 -0600

Corner grades don't change with the surface. Just how you attack it. I wouldn't attack an L3 on glare ice like I would on dry gravel, however the corner itself would still be the same.

The notes from 2014 should be at least a good basic starting point.

Re: Notes from scratch.

BobOfTheFuture — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:42:59 -0600

I have the book from STPR 2014. I figured they'd be pretty different, what with the snow..

Re: Notes from scratch.

KTurner — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:41:12 -0600

Quote
BobOfTheFuture

Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.
?

Try to keep things simple then, no pluses and minuses, focus on the gotchas and cautions. WM stages are pretty fun.

Re: Notes from scratch.

czwalga — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0600

Quote
BobOfTheFuture

Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.

Al, What's the shorthand for Sasquatch crossing?

In that case he'll be ignoring you 90% of the event and just trying to not wreck hahaha.

I'd still just write whatever he tells you... maybe having him watch some video of STPR stage 1 and 3; and try and write some notes. Maybe you'll have something to base recce off of. 95% of WM hasn't changed over the years except a few spots.

Re: Notes from scratch.

BobOfTheFuture — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 05:39:17 -0600

Quote
Everybody
Write what the driver says to write

This is the drivers first event. And due to mechanical issues, this is going to be the first time we are at speed in the car. So the additional info to avoid firey death is very much appreciated.

Al, What's the shorthand for Sasquatch crossing?

Re: Notes from scratch.

alkun — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:14:31 -0600

writing notes is super fun, but exhausting. To me the toughest part is the distances between instructions.

Make the driver call the notes, write it all down, edit/clean up heavily when you get back to the hotel. Obviously the most important is to clearly anounce the big hazzards; deceptive corners, huge ditches, sasquatch crossings...

and go to the art store and get one (or two) of these, they rule.

http://www.dickblick.com/products/alvin-pro-matic-lead-holder/?clickTracking=true&wmcp=pla&wmcid=items&wmckw=20626-1001&gclid=CKf2z43z6cMCFc1gfgodP7sA5g

Re: Notes from scratch.

Andrew_Frick — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 14:35:10 -0600

As a navigator the most important thing is to get the notes to the drivers liking.

The most common method is to have the driver call the corners as they see them the first time through the stage. The next time you read them back and make corrections as needed. Then if your hand writing sucks rewrite the notes after recce so you can read them.

The tape and stuff on the steering wheel is mechanisms to help the driver call the right number the first time. As John said it does not really matter what system you use as long as it works for the driver. Numbers, Letters, descriptions are all driver preference.