So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?)

So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) Ominous title notwithstanding, I found this an interesting development: http://couperallye.com/fr/manchettes/item/341-challenge-extreme-elite.html Not that many people outside Quebec competed in the events that switched, but some people in fleur de lis country didn't seem happy with CARS. Will be interesting to see how things go with NASA. I personally am a strong supporter of CARS' vision and work they have done, especially in the past 5 years with rallysport in Canada. I don't always agree with their decisions, but at the very least if we bitch and moan loudly enough, they usually come around. https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,112919#msg-112919 Fri, 26 Jun 2026 13:26:04 -0500 Phorum 5.2.15a https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114896#msg-114896 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114896#msg-114896

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dreamsofjvl
...and you are certainly the last person I would ever take advice from on anything business related.

Far be it to presume to give you any advice on business. So far I've been expressing my opinion - in this case that having 100 potential clients is more valuable than having 10 mandated clients. Besides which, in any discussions that are even remotely business related, you've shown not even the remotest ability to grasp anything but the most superficial understanding. (Including not being able to invoice for services or even not being able to deposit payment when received... and this is when you were handling other people's money!)

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dreamsofjvl
I'll be at your event as I've committed to the full CRC season.

The CSCC and WCRA have events that I have organized... I'll assume you mean those events. I put a lot of effort into making events happen, and always try and consider how they impact the volunteers, competitors, and local stakeholders. I don't think of them as 'my' events by any stretch.

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dreamsofjvl
While I disagree with CXE and Tremblay, people like you are the reason (right or wrong) NASA has made inroads into Canada.

I'd love for you to point to some examples to substantiate this suggestion.

The only 'inroad' NRS has in Canada is CXE. The only reason CXE is NASA sanctioned is that Tremblay couldn't come to a working agreement with RSQ that would allow him to be CARS Sanctioned. (If you read through the initial GCRs for CXE there was a really funny typo that made it clear they had done a find/replace for CARS and NASA... 10.7. Decals - On all NASA, the organizing committee must ensure that all series sponsor decals are installed according to the positions previously established by the CXE and supplied by the CXE.')]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Mon, 03 Apr 2017 18:35:14 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114893#msg-114893 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114893#msg-114893

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Not Trolling
That doesn't surprise me. Disagreeing with me seems to be a sport for you these days.

I forgot about this thread for a couple of days. I had a big long post written up but ended up having to do something and closed the window.

The gist of my post was, you don't know everything Keith, and you are certainly the last person I would ever take advice from on anything business related. :drink: But keep on keepin' on, I'll be at your event as I've committed to the full CRC season.

While I disagree with CXE and Tremblay, people like you are the reason (right or wrong) NASA has made inroads into Canada.]]> dreamsofjvl Rally Chat Mon, 03 Apr 2017 16:54:09 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114829#msg-114829 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114829#msg-114829

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Not Trolling

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john vanlandingham

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Not Trolling

From what I'm hearing, their involvement with the CXE isn't really creating 'good will' in the community.

The UNDERSTATEMENT of the WEEK Award

goes to Mieth Korrison of Calgary out in fair Alberta.

To be fair, MIA Rally Anarchist Don Holland-Oates made that comment before I did.

whatever...

I've heard stuff that makes me sound like a fawkin choirboy..]]> john vanlandingham Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:54:04 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114828#msg-114828 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114828#msg-114828

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john vanlandingham

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Not Trolling

From what I'm hearing, their involvement with the CXE isn't really creating 'good will' in the community.

The UNDERSTATEMENT of the WEEK Award

goes to Mieth Korrison of Calgary out in fair Alberta.

To be fair, MIA Rally Anarchist Don Holland-Oates made that comment before I did.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:17:20 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114826#msg-114826 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114826#msg-114826

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Not Trolling

From what I'm hearing, their involvement with the CXE isn't really creating 'good will' in the community.

The UNDERSTATEMENT of the WEEK Award

goes to Mieth Korrison of Calgary out in fair Alberta.]]> john vanlandingham Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:10:19 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114825#msg-114825 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114825#msg-114825

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dreamsofjvl
10 entries for the most extreme of things series next event which is 3 weeks away...

Apparently their only appeal is being able to use studded wrc tires. Who knew?

Only a single BRAND of NEW tires purchased from a single source
Only a single gasoline purchased from a single source..
Come on mang, you only telling half the awesomeness.]]> john vanlandingham Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:06:36 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114824#msg-114824 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114824#msg-114824

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dreamsofjvl
I'm not so sure about that.

That doesn't surprise me. Disagreeing with me seems to be a sport for you these days.

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dreamsofjvl
By taking control over essentially the market for a region, they have dictated that (regardless of whether people are running in CARS or NASA events) that the region runs those products regardless, and at inflated prices to boot.

But they haven't 'taken control' over anything but the market for the CXE. Over 100 teams entered CRC events, and a fair number more entered regional events only in 2017. While some teams buy Panta and Pirelli anyway, it wouldn't take a lot of 'loyalty' buys from across Canada to match the sales of the Spec deal. (This assumes the product is good, and priced fairly)

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dreamsofjvl
Pretty brilliant market strategy, have basically given themselves a defacto monopoly that also affects other eastern regions (Ontario and the maritimes) on what brands they buy in the off chance they want to compete in those events.

I'd agree with you if we saw every team in the east burning panta and melting pirelli... I don't think we do.
From what I'm hearing, their involvement with the CXE isn't really creating 'good will' in the community.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:49:04 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114823#msg-114823 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114823#msg-114823

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Not Trolling
for Spec suppliers who are not selling to a broad market. (I'd think they would sell as much product by being a 'preferred supplier' for the CRC as they are by being a mandated supplier in the CXE

I'm not so sure about that. By taking control over essentially the market for a region, they have dictated that (regardless of whether people are running in CARS or NASA events) that the region runs those products regardless, and at inflated prices to boot.

Pretty brilliant market strategy, have basically given themselves a defacto monopoly that also affects other eastern regions (Ontario and the maritimes) on what brands they buy in the off chance they want to compete in those events.]]> dreamsofjvl Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:32:53 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114822#msg-114822 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114822#msg-114822 Considering this is run on a road course and support roads with lapping... it'll be interesting how they fold in the other vehicles.

VLT was 10 cars, 1 bike, 1 quad, 4 SxS
Mekinac was 11 cars, 1 bike 2 SxS
Portneuf was 5 cars, 1 bike, 3 SxS

Neutral in terms of entry numbers... and relatively disappointing I'd think for both a series that used to draw mid-20s regularly AND for Spec suppliers who are not selling to a broad market. (I'd think they would sell as much product by being a 'preferred supplier' for the CRC as they are by being a mandated supplier in the CXE]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:09:08 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114821#msg-114821 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114821#msg-114821
Apparently their only appeal is being able to use studded wrc tires. Who knew?]]> dreamsofjvl Rally Chat Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:12:25 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114094#msg-114094 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114094#msg-114094 Haven't paid much attention to it but my impression is that it hasn't caught on.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:27:58 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114093#msg-114093 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114093#msg-114093 https://www.facebook.com/ChallengeXtremeElite/photos/pb.1586344314992838.-2207520000.1479926982./1626689964291606/?type=3&theater

What the hell is going on?

Too much branding, not enough thinking.]]> Vincent Gagnon Rally Chat Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:56:28 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114030#msg-114030 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114030#msg-114030

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NoCoast
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?

They started 8, 6 cars and 2 UTVs, disappointing I'm sure when events like prescott and gorman are 20ish for entries.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:50:36 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114029#msg-114029 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114029#msg-114029

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NGTD

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NoCoast
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?

They are talking about Rallye Portneuf in Quebec - 5 cars, 1 bike and 3 Side-by-sides.

What a shame.]]> Vincent Gagnon Rally Chat Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:41:12 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114025#msg-114025 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114025#msg-114025

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NoCoast
Are you guys talking about Seed 9? I thought they only had like six entries?

They are talking about Rallye Portneuf in Quebec - 5 cars, 1 bike and 3 Side-by-sides.]]> NGTD Rally Chat Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:56:08 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114023#msg-114023 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114023#msg-114023 NoCoast Rally Chat Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:46:15 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114011#msg-114011 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114011#msg-114011

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Vincent Gagnon

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aj_johnson
Not that I care to participate in the argument, that was an existing stage car with new paint and new motor and new fancy trans. I have no real clue but I'd assume the opportunity for testing as a 0 car would be a big bonus.

Da fuck are you babbling about?

Isn't that the old platto Quattro that ran a few years ago?
I agree with your sentiments on entry count and fees. Lackluster.]]> aj_johnson Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:01:19 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114010#msg-114010 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114010#msg-114010

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Vincent Gagnon
I think you gurs are missing the point here.

Inscription is now 850$.
They had 8 entries.
They are building fucking zero cars.

:up:

This is RallyAnarchy... missing the point is to be expected.

Entry fees for bikes are $600... wonder why they are $250 less expensive that cars (and only got one entry.) Any idea if SxSs are charged bike or car rates?

2 of the 3 side by sides DNF'd because of a 'belt,' which I am assuming is a drive belt. I made my way through some comments on line an it looks as if the SxSs have some concerns that the drive belts won't survive tires with aggressive studding. (Looks like they've found a spec tire sponsor for side by sides as well)

All I know is that I would hate to be the guy making inventory decisions about the 'sweden stud' tire they have as a spec tire. (Which online chatter says is a semi-custom build for the CXE)]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:00:32 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114009#msg-114009 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114009#msg-114009
Inscription is now 850$.
They had 8 entries.
They are building fucking zero cars.

:up:]]> Vincent Gagnon Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:23:47 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114008#msg-114008 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114008#msg-114008

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Gravity Fed
There is likely no "right" answer to this then. Just a preference for the organizer.

Absolutely.
I would stand firm on the requirement for full safety gear (less the onesies) in a caged course car though. Having seen a 'slow' accident without a HNR cause life altering injuries and very nearly cost a life, the minute a helmet goes on, so does the rest in my mind.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:46:54 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114007#msg-114007 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114007#msg-114007

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Gravity Fed
Typically, the "0" is the fastest pre-race car and is just doing a final check. They are also thus still on an just closed road. So two things really.

1. They are still going a bit quick. They all do it. All of them. Not as fast as competitors, unless you compare to the back of the pack. But enough that having a caged car is worthwhile.

2. Possible encounters with traffic since people have attempted to when the zero cars are running.

its not like its hard to find a caged car to use. So why not?

Possible encounters with traffic is indicative of other serious holes in stage security that are simply not acceptable. If you have a system that allows that to happen between 00 and 0 in a way that it is a concern for 0's safety, then there is nothing stopping that same thing from happening between 0 and 1, or after a long delay between any of the cars on stage.
Radio blockers are a HUGE part of the safety network for these scenarios, when they do happen.

Further, I always instruct my opening crew to drive in a way that allows them to avoid collisions with oncoming traffic. I've had it happen to me as a 0 car where I had on-coming traffic and it isn't fun.

For the hell of it I'll repeat what I said in my other post.
Course cars can't afford to go off the road and need to bring a reliable car and drive accordingly. The reason to not allow a cage is to remove that sense of 'I'm more protected so I can take more chances.' Also, to avoid pushing down the cost of helmets, seats, belts, and HNRs.]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:42:32 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114006#msg-114006 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114006#msg-114006
There is likely no "right" answer to this then. Just a preference for the organizer.]]> Gravity Fed Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:34:10 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114005#msg-114005 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114005#msg-114005

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Gravity Fed
So the ubiquitous argument for safety goes out the window here then?

Far from it.
First, I recognize each organiser has their own way of doing things and that not every event will run course cars the same way or have the same expectations. However, it would be fairly universal that any of the course cars not completing the stage will fuck up the event and probably result in a cancelled stage. If you're in an event that allows the first car to start before the last opening car has completed the stage, then that car rolling can also have a significant impact on the results of the event AND create a situation where the first car on the road comes across a stricken car when they have no expectation of it. (We've seen this - and course cars being caught - in the WRC and ERC for sure... but it is neither funny nor right.)

What I ask of my course opening crews is that they bring a reliable car and allow themselves the time to complete the stage safely at a pace no faster than what you'd see in a 'brisk' TSD. If a course car driver rolled at one of my events, they likely wouldn't be back in that role. (Of course there will always be mitigating circumstances.)

As an organiser of several events in Western Canada, I get approached regularly by people thinking course opening roles would be great to 'learn' the sport or a cheap way to get some practice/shakedown in. It isn't, at least not at my events.

I've been at events in a sanctioning body role where I've seen course cars go flying past obvious safety concerns that I would include in their responsibilities to fix. In these events it was clear the drivers were just out to play and didn't understand the scope and importance of the role (at one event it was every course car, including the sweep vehicles.)

The TLDR version is that none of the course cars can afford to leave the road, so there is absolutely no need for a cage. (Before anyone jumps on this, the 0 car at Big White will be a caged car that comes with the trio of course cars we're using... and with that cage come helmets, proper seats, proper harnesses, and HNRs)]]> Not Trolling Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:30:43 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114004#msg-114004 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114004#msg-114004
1. They are still going a bit quick. They all do it. All of them. Not as fast as competitors, unless you compare to the back of the pack. But enough that having a caged car is worthwhile.

2. Possible encounters with traffic since people have attempted to when the zero cars are running.

its not like its hard to find a caged car to use. So why not?]]> Gravity Fed Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:23:26 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114003#msg-114003 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114003#msg-114003

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Gravity Fed
So the ubiquitous argument for safety goes out the window here then?

I'm always anti-safety :spin: But further to that, if there is never a situation where Car 0 needs a cage, why would it need a cage? Because if you are arguing from a safety perspective, then ANY car that sets foot on a stage road should be caged.

Keith may be in more of a predicament with his stance on safety.]]> dreamsofjvl Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:16:18 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114002#msg-114002 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114002#msg-114002 Gravity Fed Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:06:09 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114001#msg-114001 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114001#msg-114001

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Gravity Fed

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Not Trolling

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Vincent Gagnon
And I forgot to mention, they are building zero cars!
Not everyone (matt) agrees with me, but I've always though that caged opening cars are neither needed nor a good idea.

I think that for the "0" car its a good idea. Coming from a codriver who has been upside-down in a "0" car.

I am in agreement with Keith, all it would do is promote this sort of bad behaviour. There are approximately 0 reasons a 0 car should be on its roof.]]> dreamsofjvl Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:40:55 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114000#msg-114000 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,114000#msg-114000

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Not Trolling

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Vincent Gagnon
And I forgot to mention, they are building zero cars!

Not everyone (matt) agrees with me, but I've always though that caged opening cars are neither needed nor a good idea.

I think that for the "0" car its a good idea. Coming from a codriver who has been upside-down in a "0" car.]]> Gravity Fed Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:27:00 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,113997#msg-113997 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,113997#msg-113997

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aj_johnson
Not that I care to participate in the argument, that was an existing stage car with new paint and new motor and new fancy trans. I have no real clue but I'd assume the opportunity for testing as a 0 car would be a big bonus.

Da fuck are you babbling about?]]> Vincent Gagnon Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:26:48 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,113996#msg-113996 Re: So it begins (splintering of Canadian rallysport?) https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,112919,113996#msg-113996

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Not Trolling

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Vincent Gagnon
And I forgot to mention, they are building zero cars!

Not everyone (matt) agrees with me, but I've always though that caged opening cars are neither needed nor a good idea.

Not that I care to participate in the argument, that was an existing stage car with new paint and new motor and new fancy trans. I have no real clue but I'd assume the opportunity for testing as a 0 car would be a big bonus.]]> aj_johnson Rally Chat Wed, 16 Nov 2016 03:06:49 -0600