this topic seems to permeate every thread about rallying on pretty much every rally related online forum. i thought it deserved its own thread for once. i think the key to growing rally is a local series that can gaurantee at least 4-5 smaller events for at least 3 years. these events should have very low entry fees. no rented banquet hall just a big EZ up and some pizza and pop. 3years of conistant events will encourage locals to build cars as they know there will be an affordable place to use them in the future. i am aware of this working very well in CO and the PNW. here is another question: as a regional competitor would you add 25 bucks to your entry if it were donated to a prize fund that paid out to the top 5 or more depending on the entries? recently we had a regional event in MN that i could not go to to work at but i kicked in 25 bucks to a 2wd prize fund as i would have spent way more than that on gas to get there. https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16026#msg-16026 Sat, 27 Jun 2026 19:25:01 -0500 Phorum 5.2.15a https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16780#msg-16780 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16780#msg-16780 -------------------------------------------------------
> I find it curious that my financial circumstances
> are now probably very much like many young guys
> just starting out. But, I'm 61 and will probably
> continue working full time for at least another 10
> years. I still love to play in the woods with my
> rally car, but could only do a Stage Rally with
> very limited time and resources.
>
> Does this sound familiar to anyone else?


Rich,

I think, it's fair to say... that at the bare minimum. you hit the nail on the head.

Cheers,]]> hudson Rally Chat Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:46:02 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16779#msg-16779 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16779#msg-16779 -------------------------------------------------------

> And BTW, stage rally in the US really got active
> over 40 years ago, with the guys in MI; with
> events like POR going to a form of stage format.
> It's been here a lot longer than 20 years.
>
> BTW #2: Since lack of funds (for which I
> sympathize more than know, and to which I can
> still relate) seems to be core of your limitations
> in rally, can you come up with ome idea of what
> you CAN afford? Since the high cost of
> professionalizing the sport seems to be one of the
> thigns to drive people out, what entry fee and how
> many motel nights and so on CAN people afford to
> pay? This really needs to be answered or everyone
> chases their tails on this type of subject.
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

Mark,

Sorry for not being able to respond to you sooner.

I reference the last 20 years because the Olympus Rallys of 1986, 87, and 88 were World Rally Championship events in Washington State. They mark the big turning point when many (most?) people in the NW Rally community felt that it might be possible for American Rally to get Professional and bigger via trickle down theory. This outlook was jointly held by many Competiors, Organizers, and Volunteers who wanted to do it again. Many still do. It remained alive within the SCCA ProRally/Divisional Rally system, saw the rise of the Spitzner era, and outlived it. Since that time the desire to "grow the sport" within a professional, sponsored, environment has been the dominant factor and goal. But I don't think trikle-down has worked out very well.

Today, for myself, it looks like this:

1. I could afford no more than 2 local events per year (like Doo Wops) when work allows.

2. I can only afford about 200 miles to an event.

3. I don't care anything about rallycross or sprints. (Not my thing.)

4. TSD as means of travelling to a one day Stage Rally might be fun.

5. Being able to camp-out and picnic is a big plus.

6. It will take me a year to rebuild & update my car to get back in the game.

7. If I wad my car up, I would have to sit-out a year before returning.

8. The Pomeroy roads of Wild West & Olympus are way too fast for my beloved Colt and me.

9. Oregon Trail was great in 1995 as an SCCA Divisional, but I wouldn't do it now.

So for me, a stable Local or Regional Stage Rally Club would still be ideal. This is what I hoped the old SCCA Divisional Rally program would provide. But then it got big ideas and crashed. Too bad. I don't think it had to be that way.

I find it curious that my financial circumstances are now probably very much like many young guys just starting out. But, I'm 61 and will probably continue working full time for at least another 10 years. I still love to play in the woods with my rally car, but could only do a Stage Rally with very limited time and resources.

Does this sound familiar to anyone else?

Rich Smith


]]> Rich Smith Rally Chat Thu, 26 Jun 2008 22:55:46 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16719#msg-16719 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16719#msg-16719 -------------------------------------------------------
> If Colorado can get 50 rally cars all done and
> running, then they will probably have around 30-35
> that take the start at most events over a years
> time. That will be a great program. Seems like we
> always lose about 5 entries due to mechanical
> issues or something. They could have a really big
> 45 car field for an event also.
>


Kind of what we are thinking. Get consistent 25-35+ car fields then work on a second rally. Get consistent 35+ fields then a third rally (then call it quits on the expansion).

We are getting there. Right now we are an almost consistent upper teens. One, maybe two more years and we should have the competition support to look to supporting a second rally (assuming we can keep the consistent upper teens at Rally Colorado this year)


> I'm sure there are roads available in some areas,
> possibly in the South West or Montana and Idaho.
> But if there is no rally there, no infrastructure,
> no organizers, no rally cars, a huge task lies
> ahead. Jens is really working hard to bring rally
> to his area, and it is very hard work. You have to
> have the time and will power to start it all from
> scratch. It's a monumental task trying to recruit
> and train workers where none are.



]]> JVLslittlebuddy Rally Chat Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:27:59 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16715#msg-16715 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16715#msg-16715
I'm sure there are roads available in some areas, possibly in the South West or Montana and Idaho. But if there is no rally there, no infrastructure, no organizers, no rally cars, a huge task lies ahead. Jens is really working hard to bring rally to his area, and it is very hard work. You have to have the time and will power to start it all from scratch. It's a monumental task trying to recruit and train workers where none are.

Figure what it costs to pack up PRG/ORG members from Western Washington and Oregons coast and get them over the mountains 7 to 10 hours away for a weekend to put on a rally...huge expense.

Hopefully all goes well in CRC growth and the west coast ORG/PRG/CRS can just maintain what we have. I'll bet we lose some to the travel costs and other consequences of the gas prices alone. I did notice a fair amount oof motorhomes and several bigger fishing boats heading for the coast last weekend, but there was much action at our marina..lots of slips still open.
]]> heymagic Rally Chat Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:41:30 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16703#msg-16703 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16703#msg-16703 -------------------------------------------------------
> good question about Colorado's rally program.
>
> chicken or the egg?

Both

>
> When I was out there in January, I stopped by
> CheckPoint Racing and learned that the Denver area
> has about 50 different rally builds going on right
> about now.....(true? yes, no?)
>
>

There aren't 50 different current builds. There are something like 50 different built or being built cars (including a handful of cars that are for sale)

> so do they have a lot of events because of so many
> participants?
>


Again, both. The hill climbs were there before there were many rally cars. But there were rally teams here in the 70s and odds are before that. In 1999 a group of people started re-building the idea of rallying in CO. It started with RallyCross for just a handful of people and then ballooned. In 2001 there was the Cog rally. In 2002 or 2003 the CHCA let rally cars run in their own class as an exhibition and the competitors have jumped at the opportunities. With there being real opportunities there is more incentive to build new cars.


> all the events?
>
> the CRC is new though, right? So it looks like
> you need members first....then build it.

The CRC is a product of the growth. Part of the goal of the CRC is to solidify that growth into a defined foundation for rally in CO. Build more competition and unite more competitors. To have something like the CRC you need low cost events, lots of people, and a desire on the behalf of the people to race. To varying degrees the idea of teh CRC has been being kicked around for over 2 years before the stars aligned and it was launched. Hopefully the frame work will now help facilitate both more growth on the competitor/supporter side and in a year or two some more events.

]]> JVLslittlebuddy Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:42:34 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16701#msg-16701 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16701#msg-16701
chicken or the egg?

When I was out there in January, I stopped by CheckPoint Racing and learned that the Denver area has about 50 different rally builds going on right about now.....(true? yes, no?)


so do they have a lot of events because of so many participants?


Or do they have a lot of participants because of all the events?

the CRC is new though, right? So it looks like you need members first....then build it.]]> Jon Burke Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:04:57 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16699#msg-16699 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16699#msg-16699
the biggest "problem" for rallying in america is goegraphy. we are all too spread out.

we need to creat rally communes and clump all the competitors as close together as possible.

why does the colorado program seem to be growing so fast?

geography.

they have a VERY unique situation that is very conducive to single venuew events that can get high turnouts.

i dont think rallying is doomed. i just titled this thread the way i did to get everyones attention. and it seems to have done that.

there is only one person to blame for me not being able to afford to rally.

Me. it is my own damn fault i make as little money as i do. i am not too broken up about it either. someday i want to get behind the wheel on the stages. when that day comes my grand child might be my co driver but i will still get to do it.]]> Greg Donovan Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:31:09 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16681#msg-16681 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16681#msg-16681 -------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
>
> > The current organizers and volunteers are
> very
> > dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do
> > anything more.
>
> Except try and get the numbers OUT IN THE WOODs,
> and get them in cars a normal human being with a
> bit of a normal life can afford to beat on.
>
> You may poo-poo older cars Gene but they ARE the
> mainstay of rallying WORLDWIDE and especially
> where rally is a mass-participation sport.
>
> Just like dual-sport bikes can go towards making
> an event break even so can or could 20-30 MORE
> older rwd cars.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca

John,

Absolutely not my job, nor any organizers, to recruit mass numbers of competitors into the sport. We currently have pretty close to ideal numbers as far as I can tell, at least on this coast.. Maybe more competitors in Kansas or would help. Rally is pretty much at it's limit on the west coast. There are rallies in maybe 10 to 12 states ?? Trying to increase that to say even 25 states is a monumental task. Since many expect that task to be done with no sponsorship, at no profit, by already existing overworked organizers, at prices the local paperboy could afford...who wants to undertake that? You have to find new roads, new workers, new competitors. You need all 3 pieces to that puzzle.

I like old cars, have several sitting here myself. But with old cars comes old technology, old rust. old hidden damage and hard to find parts. This is not the rest of the world, certainly not Europe. I can't make it Europe. Rally is a minor blip on the radar here. Want to see old cars compete ? Go to the drag strip or a circle track. That is what is popular in the States..not my fault. It is cheaper to build a NA Sube than an old Merkur. The cars are cheap to buy. Parts available in all wrecking yards. Perfomance parts available everywhere. Suspension available from a dozen affordable sources overnight. I can build a Sube without special rear axle adapters or Supra diffs or one of kind control arms or brakes or whatever.

If old Volvos, Merkurs, Datsuns were what people wanted to compete in they would. You do realize that Volvo doesn't doesn't make the 240 anymore and Ford dropped the Sierra ? Both in favor of FWD commuter cars.

Not my job, RA or NRS job to convince people to rally old cars. Just the same story with Jens and his electric wet dream. I help organize, RA/NRS provide the rule sets and insurance. Someone else needs to drive around recruiting.

Rally is a niche sport, I enjoy it, all of us enjoy. But it is what it is. I'm a realist. I see the obstacles and benefits with equal clarity.

John, we have a lot of similar ideas. Let me tell you that every stage needs around 20-25 volunteers. Start, finish, pace, sweep, medics and road guards. This is after someone sets the course, arrows and banner guards eveything. This takes days BTW. Say you're lucky enough to have 8 stages and can leap frog a couple crews. You still need 100 volunteers or so. People who aren't crewing or spectating. Someone who wants to stands for hours on end in the wet/dust/heat/ woods/cold waiting for a car to show up every minute and hopefully not get their ass chewed out because someone doesn't like the start order or time written down, or an instruction on the last stage.

Anyhow, this is the US of A and people have their own ideas about what to do with their free time on a weekend, if they get weekends off that is. Nothing anyone can realisticly due will influence people to rally old cars or new cars or donate roads or work events. Enjoy rally for what is it, PARTCIPATE in rally now, but don't be mean, devisive, bitter, insulting, abusive, unappreciative towards the people who go out of their way to provide this great pastime for our enjoyment.
]]> heymagic Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:04:20 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16671#msg-16671 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16671#msg-16671 > We as a community are far too vocal about the
> negative, far too set in our own opinions and
> ways, and too quick to demand of others what too
> few of us are actually willing to do.

What I find interesting is the snippets I get from other sports every so often. Like, water polo. I popped in on a discussion board there. Guess what I found? Complaints about participation levels, exposure, growing the sport, cost of travel... and they only have to buy swim suits!

I wonder how many other sports are in the same situation (and by that I mean "not currently ridiculously exploding in popularity and a media darling, with passionate participants working on improving it") currently?

Anders

ps: yes, the water polo guys were arguing about the sanctioning bodies too! *grin*

]]> Anders Green Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:54:49 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16669#msg-16669 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16669#msg-16669
> The current organizers and volunteers are very
> dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do
> anything more.

Except try and get the numbers OUT IN THE WOODs, and get them in cars a normal human being with a bit of a normal life can afford to beat on.

You may poo-poo older cars Gene but they ARE the mainstay of rallying WORLDWIDE and especially where rally is a mass-participation sport.

Just like dual-sport bikes can go towards making an event break even so can or could 20-30 MORE older rwd cars.


]]> john vanlandingham Rally Chat Mon, 23 Jun 2008 01:53:08 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16667#msg-16667 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16667#msg-16667
Rally currently has some unique opportunities whereas a person can compete on the same roads at the same time as the current champion and top tier. My son has had ACPs crew service his car as well as he servicing for Andrew. That just doesn't happen everywhere.

I think grassroots is just fine in the NW. We have DooWops( 2 regionals), 2 or 3 regionals with Oregon Trail, 2 regionals with Olympus, the worker rally sprints,2 regionals for Wild West, Mt.Hood and several rally Xs. That's at least 10 point scoring rallies within 7 hours of many competitors. Most events are within 3 hours. Idaho Rally adds another event as well as Nevada and several in Canada. Oregon is looking at a couple of new venues so we may have more. I'd guess we have at least 60 cars that could compete with minimal effort.

The current organizers and volunteers are very dedicated, but I'm not sure we can really do anything more.]]> heymagic Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:02:50 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16658#msg-16658 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16658#msg-16658 -------------------------------------------------------
> JVLslittlebuddy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is kind of funny how things look from the
> other
> > side Jason.
> >
> >
> > The problem with rallying is the priorities
> of far
> > too many of the rallyists.
>
> I don't know if I get what you're driving at?
>
> Andrew McNally
> Hamilton ON
> 28


Sorry, those were two different thoughts.

It is just ironic seeing someone that has really poured a small fortune into a couple of different drivers over the last two years comment about open checkbook racing.


The other comment I think speaks for itself.

I have never come across such a passionate, yet disfunctional group. Everything is always wrong, or can be better. People complain about events being to expensive, or too far away, but then they find reasons and ways not to support far too many closer or less expensive rallies. We argue about what is wrong, about what others do, about what others should do, but far too few of us take the time to pursue the changes. This is a sport that demands so much of the individuals that sometimes people get consumed by that instead of looking to the broader picture.

We as a community are far too vocal about the negative, far too set in our own opinions and ways, and too quick to demand of others what too few of us are actually willing to do. I am not meaning to say that we should all be happy lovey and never make criticisms (that would potentially be worse) but far too few people are willing to look past what they find to be deficient and start working on real solutions.]]> JVLslittlebuddy Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:26:39 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16657#msg-16657 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16657#msg-16657 -------------------------------------------------------
> It is kind of funny how things look from the other
> side Jason.
>
>
> The problem with rallying is the priorities of far
> too many of the rallyists.

I don't know if I get what you're driving at?]]> hudson Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:22:05 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16656#msg-16656 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16656#msg-16656 -------------------------------------------------------
> As somebody who grew up watching the WRC and the
> british rally champs in england and now somebody
> who has a car in NA. Rally here will continue to
> struggle as long as RA keep kissing the ass of
> Subaru usa and rockstar.
>
> Racing here unlike most domestic euro champs is
> still open checkbook racing. The BRc for example
> stopped this open checkbook fiasco a couple of
> years back and now make the top teams including
> the Higgins conform to grp N so that the privateer
> now stands a chance of running with the big boys.
> To me this makes much more sense and more cost
> affective. Yes before somebody points out that we
> tried grp N and it faded out but now look at the
> state of rallying in the US it is hardly anything
> to be proud off, and 2 cars anyway just keep
> running away with the races as along as they stay
> sunny side up race after race because there
> checkbooks are simply bigger not because they are
> far superior drivers.
>
> As long as we continue along this road with the
> way our economy is going fewer and fewer people
> will be racing, and less and less raceswill take
> place because of lack of entries to operate.


It is kind of funny how things look from the other side Jason.


Separate Thought: The problem with rallying is the priorities of far too many of the rallyists.]]> JVLslittlebuddy Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:40:04 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16653#msg-16653 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16653#msg-16653
I sure appreciate the efforts of all those who put on events for us to play in the woods.

I don't care if we have big dollar$ guys to compete with.

I just want to play in the woods with my friends.]]> JohnLane Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:31:14 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16651#msg-16651 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16651#msg-16651 -------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, you didn't forget that NASCAR isn't only the
> Sprint series. They have every thing down to local
> tracks and small dollar racers. Kind of an apples
> and oranges comparison. As long as there is
> racing, there will be a spot for the little guy.
> Whether it is bracket racing,stock cars,
> NASA/SCCA/Conference roaad racing, karts, Formula
> V or Ford, RallyX, tough trucks and so on. There
> will always be a place for the "little guys".


Gene,

You seem to miss my point. Wanting to run with the big dogs can be fun' specialy if you maange a good finish just behind some of the top guys; it is a huge personal satisfaction. Running with Buffum was fun to a point, though I got a lot more fun running against my seed competition. The point is that wanting to run with TP will dissappear if things get big, just as runing with Richard Petty, Junior Johnson, Ned Jarrett, and such guys dissappeared for the lower end NASCAR guys. That's not an apples and oranges comparison at all; it's the reality of all racing when $$ get involved.

I bet I know more about the NASACAR lower levels than you. And let me tell you, many of the tracks in this region religiously avoid any NASCAR regional affiliation like the plague. It may be the NASCAR guys around here, but they exude a level of condescention and deisre to control things that really irks a lot of track operators and competitors alike. I personaly feel this flows down from the big $$ ned of the sport, but that my IMO.

Mark B.
]]> starion887 Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:42:41 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16650#msg-16650 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16650#msg-16650 -------------------------------------------------------
> Mark,
>
> A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their
> efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years.
> And, I salute you and your love for the sport.
> But, it really is time to connect the dots and
> take stock of the achievements… and the failures.
> To look with clear eyes at the tally of who
> benefits and who does not. I agree with you that
> it is important to remember the history of past
> efforts to “professionalize” the sport while
> keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations
> like National & Division classes and graduated
> entry fees, and look again at the current state of
> the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over.
> The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you
> personally wanted? I don't think so.

And I again am amazed that that you think the grassroots in nearly gone. What is going on in the PNW that I am missing? The dots seem to be connnected out here, at least for some events and organizers, and not just limited to one sanctioning body, IMO.

Sounds like you want to step back to what used to be known as Fast TSD's, at least here in the east. These had some average speeds on sections that made a car go pretty much balls out. But, these faded out, probably as organizers saw the liability become more and more of a real and potentially personally destroying issue. We have at lest 50 millions more people here in the US since the heyday of the Fast TSD, and a bunch or people who will mush more readily sue over things.

And BTW, stage rally in the US really got active over 40 years ago, with the guys in MI; with events like POR going to a form of stage format. It's been here a lot longer than 20 years.

BTW #2: Since lack of funds (for which I sympathize more than know, and to which I can still relate) seems to be core of your limitations in rally, can you come up with ome idea of what you CAN afford? Since the high cost of professionalizing the sport seems to be one of the thigns to drive people out, what entry fee and how many motel nights and so on CAN people afford to pay? This really needs to be answered or everyone chases their tails on this type of subject.

Regards,
Mark B.]]> starion887 Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:33:15 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16647#msg-16647 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16647#msg-16647 -------------------------------------------------------
> This works pretty well in Hornetracing.
> In Hornetracing the winning car gets claimed by
> the track and the owner of it gets paid $1000 as
> prize money for an enduro event. This keeps
> people from putting stupid money into their cars.
> Keeps the fields thick with junk too.

True.. but if you didn't have a mandatory buy when you win.. but a more informal "hey let's not put more than 30k into our cars guys" understanding, that could be enforced as a buy at say $35-40k if enough people thought bob has gone a bit far.

If you only had 25k in your car and and the rule was enforced and it was bought from you, you'd have 35k in your pocket.. sure you're probably pissed, but not too hard done by.

Which begs the question of where the money comes from, who owns it afterwards and what gets done with it if say the club bought.

Ideally it would be enough incentive to not put 60k in your car...

I don't think it needs to be said that all these numbers are straight out of my ass.

]]> hudson Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:31:50 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16646#msg-16646 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16646#msg-16646
On this forumn we use our real names, and fill out the profile honestly.


]]> JohnLane Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:16:09 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16645#msg-16645 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16645#msg-16645 -------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think the most effective way to keep costs
> reasonable would be to have a rule that in class X
> any competitor can buy your car for Y. There
> would of course have to be stipulations on this
> and the price would have to be reasonable. But it
> would stop a lot of the crazy spending.
>
> Now I know that's pretty radical and a lot of
> people would be against it.


This works pretty well in Hornetracing.
In Hornetracing the winning car gets claimed by the track and the owner of it gets paid $1000 as prize money for an enduro event. This keeps people from putting stupid money into their cars. Keeps the fields thick with junk too.

]]> JohnLane Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:15:00 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16643#msg-16643 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16643#msg-16643 -------------------------------------------------------
> Mark,
>
> A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their
> efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years.
> And, I salute you and your love for the sport.
> But, it really is time to connect the dots and
> take stock of the achievements… and the failures.
> To look with clear eyes at the tally of who
> benefits and who does not. I agree with you that
> it is important to remember the history of past
> efforts to “professionalize” the sport while
> keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations
> like National & Division classes and graduated
> entry fees, and look again at the current state of
> the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over.
> The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you
> personally wanted? I don't think so.
>
> And I say this:
> To the extent Stage Rally has successfully
> contributed to the health and development of the
> Grassroots, it has succeeded in developing and
> perpetuating the future of the Sport. But the
> converse is also very, very true.
>
> It's time for the Grassroots to reach for daylight
> again.
>
> Rich Smith
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 21, 2008 by Rich
> Smith.

To all things there is a season...I love that saying. It's something to live by. Everything has it's time in the sun. Life is all about change. Rally like everything else will change. It has to. Whether from lack of roads, enviro issues, technology advances, lack of volunteers, lack of interest and growth or the economy.

I'm sure different parts of the country have different issues to contend with. We just went to Grays Harbor County to try and find 5 more miles of road for DooWops . ( we have some surprises next year ). It needs to be close to the core rally, we don't want to transit 100 miles for a stage . They found a 3 mile road we can use. Not the best, but it'll do. When you look at ownership maps it becomes pretty daunting to find gravel or paved roads of enough length, with friendly ownership that can be closed down for an event. There are huge blocks of land that simply have no roads. There are roads that have a dozen different owners.

Thirty years ago you could travel hundreds of miles on Grays Harbor/Pacific County logging roads. Now they are gated every few miles. Many are patrolled. The Capitol Forest has washouts and blowdowns blocking many roads. Some roads have been deconstructed and are gone forever. Neither RA nor NRS have the ability to change that kind of obstacle.

Rally has to change to survive at all. The RallyMoto program is one change that is proving huge. Stadium and fender to fender events may be another. I don't know the final answer, of course any answer will change as times and cirumstances dictate. I will tell you that it doesn't evolve around 100 RWD 20 and 30 year old cars, bias ply tires, 100s of miles of un-permissioned roads and thousands of eager volunteers. Brent just went ot work a track day in Kent. It started at about 4 pm on a Thursday. The Alfa club I believe. Anyway the volunteers were all fed. 60 cars or more showed. $200 entry, an hour of track time. Brent gets $100 voucher for future events he wants to run. Easy to do,contained venue, no long treks, no stuck in the woods, no dust, lots of cars racing each other...EASY ..kinda like that big button on the tv ads. They turn away entries at every one of these, yet we get 30 some cars at DooWops and usually less at each rally after that. Certainly not RA, NRS, Subaru or Corporate Americas fault. It wasn't really better 30 years ago, just different.

To remember and honor our past is one thing, to be consumed by returning to it is another.


]]> heymagic Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:36:19 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16641#msg-16641 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16641#msg-16641
A lot of men have sweat blood, like you, in their efforts to keep rally alive these past 20 years. And, I salute you and your love for the sport. But, it really is time to connect the dots and take stock of the achievements… and the failures. To look with clear eyes at the tally of who benefits and who does not. I agree with you that it is important to remember the history of past efforts to “professionalize” the sport while keeping the “grassroots” alive with innovations like National & Division classes and graduated entry fees, and look again at the current state of the sport. But, the “big time” mindset took over. The grassroots are nearly gone. Is this what you personally wanted? I don't think so.

And I say this:
To the extent Stage Rally has successfully contributed to the health and development of the Grassroots, it has succeeded in developing and perpetuating the future of the Sport. But the converse is also very, very true.

It's time for the Grassroots to reach for daylight again.

Rich Smith
]]> Rich Smith Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:57:44 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16640#msg-16640 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16640#msg-16640
Don't forget Casey Kahne and Greg Biffle are local Washington boys. Derrick Cope and Chad Little also. They absolutely didn't start in Sprint Cup cars.

20 years ago we had 2 guys who normally won, Buffum or Millen. Usually Buffum. We had no divisional series. Nothing much happened in Canada, at least on the west side. I won overall the last Canadian event I ran. Now we have Pinker, Pastrana, Block, ACP, Lageman(sp), Foust, L'Estage, Richard all capable of winning on any given day. Also some very fast Irish guys from the East coast in USRC. We have 2 sanctioning bodies, several championships, decent regional programs, better tires, better cars, better suspension. We have great regional competition where a modest Rabbit or radical Volvo can go heads up with AWD turbo cars. It just isn't all doom and gloom. Certainly we have some challenges and adjustments ahead, but we'll keep rallying until the last road is gated.

]]> heymagic Rally Chat Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:52:19 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16635#msg-16635 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16635#msg-16635
absolutely, and I get that and can see how the sport could get to the same point NASCAR did like you said I hope it doesn't come to that...and if it does, I certainly won't try to keep up. Hopefully I'll have run my one RA event so I can say ' been there, done that' and then stick with local CRS events....I'll be happy as a clam.

BUT, it would be nice to find a good middle ground to keep that from happening and keep everyone happy. Maybe we're already there and we don't even know it. HANS devices have dropped in prices already.....NorCal picked up an event this year (NNR.....so annoyed I had to miss it at the last minute) and hopefully that will be around next year too. For a NASA rally beginner's stand point on the West coast, I honestly hope things just stay the same for the next 2 years.]]> Jon Burke Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:56:38 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16628#msg-16628 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16628#msg-16628 >
> I REALLY LIKE the fact that I can build a car and
> go enter it in an RA event and get my name in the
> line-up behind TP and all those guys. That they
> will let me play with the big boys no matter how
> much I know I'm gonna get my ass handed to me. NO
> OTHER sport will let me do that today. Someday I
> will get to say, "I went there, and I did that,
> and I raced with the big boys, and I did it with
> my own two hands and hard work."
>
> So I DON'T want to see that aspect change, and
> maybe we're all just being paranoid and it won't
> change, and maybe I'm being a jackass suggesting
> that we charge Monster and Redbull more money so
> TP and those guys can 'keep rallying with us'(or
> 'we can keep rallying with them')
>
> Maybe I'm being completely fucking ridiculous.

No not at all. You are talking about a dream and a passion, it does not have to make logical sense!

But I will re-iterate a story that I have probably made a lot of folks sick with its retelling: My dad took me to my first NASCAR race at Martinsville, in spring '63; I was 9 and really ate it up. He took me to several more races over the next few years, all in the 60's. There were 6-8 really top cars, some good cars, and the rest of the field filled with guys like most of us on this forum. In '67, at Asheville-Weaverville, there were 10-12 top cars and then the same graduated field. By the mid 70's there were fewer guys like us, running cars they built in their garage, and by the early 80's these guys were all elminated.

The warning is that if you want to run with the big dogs and the sport takes off, then you had better try to build a pro team now, and forget the joy-of-rally and adventure aspects of the sport and make it a pure business. Those amateur/hobby types who wish to run with the big boys will NOT survive IMO if it takes off.

I've been through the exercise of trying to make this rally sport a part time business, in the early and mid 80's I was not really a dedicated business person then, so it did not go anywhere. I readily learned it was my hobby, not my living. The pure amateur/hobby side or all racing forms and the pure advertising business aspect rarely ever really mix successfuly. The cost struture of a business is so much higher.

So, Jon, have your fun running with TP, but, my advice for most is that you better had put your dedication behind the participation sport advocates, no matter the sanctioning body or what. For most of us, that is what it will be: a hobby. I think this is the core thrust of this thread: get away from the high-dollar pro deal, and get back to good ole basic rally for the pure joy of the sport.

Regards,
Mark B.

]]> starion887 Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:15:29 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16627#msg-16627 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16627#msg-16627



I'd say theres a fare bit of US Rally exposure in that.]]> Carl S Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 16:19:55 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16624#msg-16624 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16624#msg-16624 -------------------------------------------------------
> hudson Wrote:
> >
> > What I'm trying to say is I think the idea of
> a
> > structured entrance fee depending on the
> > badassness of your vehicle and sponsorship
> is
> > sound. Also, this would likely encourage
> people
> > to get in the sport and hopefully catch the
> big
> > and build a more badass car.
>
> I disagree on HP level being the criteria for any
> structured entry fee. How about the guy/gal who
> wants to rally on the cheap by building a V8
> pickup? That's a budget effort wiht moderate to
> high HP.
>
> Since I am getting pissed at the apparent lack of
> willingness of many here to spend any effort at
> learning any US rally history, here is some
> history on this topic:
> In the 70's and 80's it was not uncommon for some
> US rally events to have tiered entry fee. My first
> completed event was '78 Sunriser 400; the entry
> was $100 for amateur entrants, and $200 for
> sponsored entrants. At that time, it was also not
> unusual for some events to offer a lower entry fee
> for the 1 or 2 lowest seeded entrants; typically
> 15-20% less. This continued until the mid-80's
> when the Pro Rally rules were changed, and the
> SCCA ruled that all entry fees would be the same
> for all entrants. I don't know the reasons behind
> that change.
>
> For that '78 Sunriser, there were only handful of
> sponsored entrants out of the 70-80 total, so it
> only made small dent in overall event income. If
> the entry fees were equalized, then the extra $$
> lost from the doubled entry fee for the sponsored
> entrants, spread over everybody, would have raised
> the non-sponsored entrant's entry fees by $10-12.
>
> Since the number of really pro US rally teams out
> there is very small, don't fool yourselves into
> thinking that doubling their entry fees will
> result in some great bonanza of decreased fees for
> everyone else. It would take raising those pro
> entry fees by 5x or 10x to make any real
> difference. The only real benefit of doubling pro
> team entry fees IMO is to make a few folks feel
> better.
>
> I would be more in favor of reviving the graduated
> fee struture if the lower fees went to new
> competitors in their first 3 events.
>
> Mark B.
>
>
>
>

Thanks Mark, I did not know that either.

so to clarify a few things more. I didn't really specify, but I guess my comments are mainly for RA. again, not a 'dig' on RA, but RA seems to be getting all the press and that's where the big boys play. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not fully immersed in the sport from every angle.

NASA events (at least in CA) just seem to have a numbers problem...we just need more people competing, pretty simple. A basic fee structure like the one Mark just mentioned I *think* would be a possible improvement. but you never know. Honestly, I think most of the NASA events in the SW (ie the CRS events) are priced pretty well.


Regarding corp sponsors making money/profit off of these events....yes, its certainly not a 'money making' scenario, but there is definitely a very powerful and intrinsic value to it all. I mean, why does ANY car company race? Its more of a branding thing, which is something that cannot be bought and does not happen in the span of a 60 second TV commercial.

No, I have not seen a single subaru TV commercial featuring rally....but yet, the Subaru brand is very different today from the Subaru brand of 1985. (Ohhhh, its a SUBARU!)


I REALLY LIKE the fact that I can build a car and go enter it in an RA event and get my name in the line-up behind TP and all those guys. That they will let me play with the big boys no matter how much I know I'm gonna get my ass handed to me. NO OTHER sport will let me do that today. Someday I will get to say, "I went there, and I did that, and I raced with the big boys, and I did it with my own two hands and hard work."

So I DON'T want to see that aspect change, and maybe we're all just being paranoid and it won't change, and maybe I'm being a jackass suggesting that we charge Monster and Redbull more money so TP and those guys can 'keep rallying with us'(or 'we can keep rallying with them')

Maybe I'm being completely fucking ridiculous.

but yet....here we are, in a thread titled 'how would YOU save rallying in NA?'.


]]> Jon Burke Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:57:55 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16623#msg-16623 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16623#msg-16623 -------------------------------------------------------
> I disagree on HP level being the criteria for any
> structured entry fee. How about the guy/gal who
> wants to rally on the cheap by building a V8
> pickup? That's a budget effort wiht moderate to
> high HP.

True

> Since I am getting pissed at the apparent lack of
> willingness of many here to spend any effort at
> learning any US rally history, here is some
> history on this topic:

I apologize for my ignorance.

> I would be more in favor of reviving the graduated
> fee struture if the lower fees went to new
> competitors in their first 3 events.

Now that's a good idea!

It's just as a potential new rally guy.. the whole thing is about as scary as marriage (seriously).

Huge upfront costs & sacrifices all on the idea that both myself and my friends (that I would have to rope into the whole thing) are really going to enjoy this and all the work and money is going to be worth it.

ANYTHING that made the initial commitment easier to swallow would be a good thing in my opinion.]]> hudson Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:25:40 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16619#msg-16619 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16619#msg-16619 >
> What I'm trying to say is I think the idea of a
> structured entrance fee depending on the
> badassness of your vehicle and sponsorship is
> sound. Also, this would likely encourage people
> to get in the sport and hopefully catch the big
> and build a more badass car.

I disagree on HP level being the criteria for any structured entry fee. How about the guy/gal who wants to rally on the cheap by building a V8 pickup? That's a budget effort wiht moderate to high HP.

Since I am getting pissed at the apparent lack of willingness of many here to spend any effort at learning any US rally history, here is some history on this topic:
In the 70's and 80's it was not uncommon for some US rally events to have tiered entry fee. My first completed event was '78 Sunriser 400; the entry was $100 for amateur entrants, and $200 for sponsored entrants. At that time, it was also not unusual for some events to offer a lower entry fee for the 1 or 2 lowest seeded entrants; typically 15-20% less. This continued until the mid-80's when the Pro Rally rules were changed, and the SCCA ruled that all entry fees would be the same for all entrants. I don't know the reasons behind that change.

For that '78 Sunriser, there were only handful of sponsored entrants out of the 70-80 total, so it only made small dent in overall event income. If the entry fees were equalized, then the extra $$ lost from the doubled entry fee for the sponsored entrants, spread over everybody, would have raised the non-sponsored entrant's entry fees by $10-12.

Since the number of really pro US rally teams out there is very small, don't fool yourselves into thinking that doubling their entry fees will result in some great bonanza of decreased fees for everyone else. It would take raising those pro entry fees by 5x or 10x to make any real difference. The only real benefit of doubling pro team entry fees IMO is to make a few folks feel better.

I would be more in favor of reviving the graduated fee struture if the lower fees went to new competitors in their first 3 events.

Mark B.



]]> starion887 Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:02:01 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16618#msg-16618 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?1,16026,16618#msg-16618
The road damage issue and adjusting cost has some merit but a few flaws. If a 400 hp RWD car enters and DNFs on the first transit what then ? With the turbo restrictor the normal Mitsu/Sube power is from 250 to 315 hp at the wheels. Depends on boost and tuning and a certain amount of dyno differences. So how do we draw the line on that issue ? I'd guess that driver style makes a bigger difference. Tanner is the definition of smooth, Block is very aggresive and brutal. Both are fun to watch though ! Hard braking by any car does a fair amnount of damage also.

I remeber being at the back of the pack in the old days . There were only a couple three AWD cars then. The roads were miserable at the stage starts. I think less damage is actually done now.

I don't think we can just charge one guy more than another just because he has more money or sponsorship. Washington used to charge car tabs ( road use)by the value of the car. A Ferrari cost a huge amount, a Hyundai next to nothing in comparison. Most Ferraris put on very few actual miles compared to most econo boxes. They already paid more sales tax on purchase. Hardly equitable, and no longer done. We really have to avoid basing fees on income, no caste type class systems...although some guys might like having a world rally blue dot on their forehead...ya never know.

A "pro" clas might be good. Charge them more money, ok. I suspect anticipation of a return ( prize money ) would then raise it's head. That would end up being a push. Really the top guys cost us not much more effort or money. They do bring in good publicity, signing autographs, visiting Childrens Hospital,extr hand me down tires for pace and sweep, excitement to fans and workers alike.

Rally really needs some new organizing blood. Someone who isn't burned out, old , tired, already committed to other events. Someone with fresh ideas, new contacts, willing to organize a C1 and maybe just break even. That person sure isn't me, nor most of the current organizers I know. Some of you new guys with new visions need to step up. It's easy ( not really) but can be done. ]]> heymagic Rally Chat Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:59:00 -0500