Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Mad Matt F — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:28:13 -0600

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Aaron Luptak

As others have mentioned, we're lacking lower displacement cars (esp. historically - lots of new stuff < 2l), but we're also lacking lower displacement classes. (Yes, a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem)

Aside from their lightly subscribed "b-spec" class, rally-america's lowest displacement class is 2.5L. NASA appears to be similar.

We (CARS) had a low displacement class... P1, sub 1.4L adjusted. It was basically Swifts and Justys. Late 90's early 00's there was a ton of cars running it. I knew of 6 Justys in Ontario and Quebec personally, plus probably 10+ Swifts. We had a BLAST dukin' it out when I got started in '04. Those cars are to long rotten, and gone. I don't know why the Echo, or Yaris didn't take their place. Subsequently P1 disappeared (but not before we got a First in Class, Dead Fn' Last!)

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

john vanlandingham — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:59:23 -0600

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Cosworth

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NoCoast
There is a small contingent of rally guys that will not even consider JVAB parts. Saw a guy posting on facebook the other day and one of us telling him to order JVAB and be done with it and he said never.
Lol and that is the typical case where John could shine. I tried to say that it would fix his issues but he did have his point.
And the Fiestas are only fast with fast drivers. I've yet to see some Joe Schmoe jump in the car and set the world on fire. John kept saying what a nice 1.6 with good gear and suspension can do, well with the driver it had pedaling it even in a POS they could delight everyone. And as far as the "other" Fiestas out there, where are they in the leaderboards? What's their return for spending 60k on a car that is keeping them in the same places in the classifications.

Paulinho I keep stressing very explicitly "Look what that guy Brendon Reeves can do with a little 1.6 with the right bits"
A little sentence diagramming would show the SUBJECT of the sentence is Brendon Reeves, the clause "in a little 1.6" and 'with the right bits' are auxiliary clauses....
The central thing is obviously the subject: Reeves.

We all know that it is harder and thus more costly to build I highly tuned little motor, and it takes a close ratio gear set to keep it on the boil PRESUMING THE DRIVER CAN...and that's a jump I can't take after watching our drivers..

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Aaron Luptak — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:04:06 -0600

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danster
I find it really strange as it seems many in the USA ignore anything under 2 litre engine size as being a viable option to rally. Some of the best and closest competition over here in the UK is in the smaller capacity classes where true talent and commitment shines through.

As others have mentioned, we're lacking lower displacement cars (esp. historically - lots of new stuff < 2l), but we're also lacking lower displacement classes. (Yes, a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem)

Aside from their lightly subscribed "b-spec" class, rally-america's lowest displacement class is 2.5L. NASA appears to be similar.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

NoCoast — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:32:45 -0600

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danster
I find it really strange as it seems many in the USA ignore anything under 2 litre engine size as being a viable option to rally. Some of the best and closest competition over here in the UK is in the smaller capacity classes where true talent and commitment shines through.
I was speaking earlier to a long term rally connection who has a pal that currently competes at a high national level in an ex WRC car, and he was saying they do not actually enjoy it as much as when they were battling in the 1.3 and 1.6 classes. Basically the hassle and cost of running such high end cars is not really justifiable even with extensive sponsorship and the guy being fairly well off. It has taken a lot of the fun out of it for them.

I've heard similar sentiments in all forms of hobbies that people decide to try to make careers out of.
I've definitely heard that same sentiment second hand from Finland about rallying.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Josh Wimpey — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:57 -0600

Only banned in Rally-America.. Go run NASA and get your coefficients then run whatever you like

As far as displacement goes, over here in the good ol U S of A, displacement is king. So much so that it is hard to name many sub 2-liter cars in the past 25 years that anyone would ever consider a performance machine on any level. That isn't to say that they aren't capable, they just aren't offered for sale here.

I remember sometime in the early 1980s that the VW Rabbit GTI with the 1.8l was the quickest or second quickest production car available in the US despite the huge number of god awful huge displacement corvette & mustang things available at the time that were crippled with early emissions equipment and 20 years of foregone squirt/squish/bang engineering compared to the germans.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

danster — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:00:05 -0600

Well the bashed Fiasco in the original post never sold at 9k so I guess Fiestas with trunks ain't going to be the emperor's new clothes on the gravel.....

But wait, had another look and it has been re-listed and now has eleven bids and is sitting at 7.2k so you never know.

Josh aren't those dangerous turbos banned for newbies over there?

I find it really strange as it seems many in the USA ignore anything under 2 litre engine size as being a viable option to rally. Some of the best and closest competition over here in the UK is in the smaller capacity classes where true talent and commitment shines through.
I was speaking earlier to a long term rally connection who has a pal that currently competes at a high national level in an ex WRC car, and he was saying they do not actually enjoy it as much as when they were battling in the 1.3 and 1.6 classes. Basically the hassle and cost of running such high end cars is not really justifiable even with extensive sponsorship and the guy being fairly well off. It has taken a lot of the fun out of it for them.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

NoCoast — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:25:17 -0600

But didn't that one chick that did stunt driving in Fast and Furious (or something like that maybe?), didn't she win Spec B rally two years in a row or something?

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Josh Wimpey — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:24:36 -0600

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john vanlandingham
Actually it is in line with all of Gene's angry ranting: it is all assertion and presumption....
"stock 6sp box will likely do"
"just a limited slip ....." link to one that fits the 6 speed. Book R&R time
"You no longer need the fancy gearbox, engine internals" Oh REALLY?

Sure, it is a big assumption that the STOCK gearbox, axles, and engine can handle the STOCK power levels.

So, give it 6 months and see just how much abuse they handle on the street before diving in. Surely there are already bozos putting stoopid big turbos on them and seeing what they can handle. If guys don't start grenading gearboxes, axles, and motors before the booooosts is turned up to insane levels, then they should be just fine for rally. You don't need (or really want) anything more than 200hp 200tq in a 2300lb machine on gravel so stock is plenty --- hell, keep the AC too for comfort.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

MattWatson — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:58:08 -0600

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Cosworth
What's their return for spending 60k on a car that is keeping them in the same places in the classifications.

It looks cool and (arguably) looks better. Same reason lots of people buy a new car every 5 years.

I am extremely pragmatic, so old is fine. I even steped away from a car I love (saab 900) to something cheaper, because, well it was cheaper to build something that could some day be competitive.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Cosworth — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:02:43 -0600

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NoCoast
There is a small contingent of rally guys that will not even consider JVAB parts. Saw a guy posting on facebook the other day and one of us telling him to order JVAB and be done with it and he said never.

Lol and that is the typical case where John could shine. I tried to say that it would fix his issues but he did have his point.

As for building a Fiesta ST, I don't see the point in looking at the specs on paper and say that it will be a ballistic missile going down the stages. Many things look good on paper but not practically, how well will that car handle the power, torque steer, will it put the power down? Will the box survive wheel hop?. And the Fiestas are only fast with fast drivers. I've yet to see some Joe Schmoe jump in the car and set the world on fire. John kept saying what a nice 1.6 with good gear and suspension can do, well with the driver it had pedaling it even in a POS they could delight everyone. And as far as the "other" Fiestas out there, where are they in the leaderboards? What's their return for spending 60k on a car that is keeping them in the same places in the classifications.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

NoCoast — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:15:43 -0600

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MattWatson
I believe he already manufactures suspension to fit it (or did I hear that wrong?) and gearboxes are being made in europe, cages are easy 1 off, and other suspension parts are available in europe really easily.
Maybe I am being naieve here... but whats to develop?

There is a small contingent of rally guys that will not even consider JVAB parts. Saw a guy posting on facebook the other day and one of us telling him to order JVAB and be done with it and he said never.

What do you want to buy? Car guys buy stuff. Most rallyists are more car enthusiasts than race car drivers, hence they spend more buying parts than racing cars. Brake kits, braided brake line kits, differentials, cage kits, top mounts, control arms, tubular cross members, beam strengthening kits, skid plates, seat mounts, and on and on and on. Yeah, you can probably order all that from M Sport but I can probably build it cheaper. Well, maybe not the differential. :)

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

MattWatson — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:00:28 -0600

In my opinion, if I had 30-50k to spend on a rally car, I wouldn't be doing the work myself, someone else would be doing it for me. Just my 2c on that side.

Having talked with John a lot, he comes by the apples to apples philosophy with a healthy dose of bang for the buck. So, if the fiesta is like for like to a golf or whatever (really doesn't matter) than in his thinking the golf is "better" because it is 8 thousand dollars cheaper.

I believe he already manufactures suspension to fit it (or did I hear that wrong?) and gearboxes are being made in europe, cages are easy 1 off, and other suspension parts are available in europe really easily.

Maybe I am being naieve here... but whats to develop?

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

NoCoast — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:27:49 -0600

Believe it or not, there are people out there who can go and drop $20 or $30k in cash on a vehicle.
It all depends on their outlook and if they want to put that amount of money into the full endeavor.
Maybe it's time I buy a Fiesta ST also and start developing gravel rally parts for it...

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

john vanlandingham — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:01:53 -0600

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ReluctantGolf
Josh, this makes a lot of sense to me; given my very limited knowledge.

Actually it is in line with all of Gene's angry ranting: it is all assertion and presumption....
"stock 6sp box will likely do"
"just a limited slip ....." link to one that fits the 6 speed. Book R&R time
"You no longer need the fancy gearbox, engine internals" Oh REALLY?

And on and on..
I have talked to a dozen people---three just yesterday alone---who thought this thread is as silly as I do, $9000 is about where these guys will be done enough to start thinking about entering---and practicing.

We ALL agreed, "maybe in 10 years, just like the Focus too 19 years before there was affordable cars and alternate parts.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

ReluctantGolf — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:43:17 -0600

Josh, this makes a lot of sense to me; given my very limited knowledge. I am in this "reluctant" state as I have been trying to figure what makes more long term sense..the constant building of a reliable golf or some version of the fiesta and your thought on the fiesta st is a permutation that I hadnt thought of. Do you think the uprated driveshafts are even necessary from the base ST to the R2 driveshafts (assuming they fit)?

So is this a sample "blueprint"?

- base fiesta ST
- cage
- seats, harnesses and all safety equipment required
- LSD
- motor and tranny mounts

and then you are ready to go??

Would this basically be a fiesta st + the R1 kit?....seems like it?? no??

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Josh Wimpey — Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:24:40 -0600

I posted this on SS a while ago....It is relevant to the original post in that it makes more sense $$$ & Performance wise to buy a NEW Fiesta ST rather than a regular Fiesta even if the Fiesta is free.

So, here is a thought...

Buy a new Fiesta ST with the turbo 1.6L

When ready to rally, instead of purchasing the full R2 kit, you can leave out the engine bits, the ECU, the wiring loom, the gearbox, driveshafts, clutch kit, gear change equipment, gear display, etc...

By my count, you would save over $20,000 in the engine and drivetrain R2 parts not purchased which way more than makes up for the $5500 or so price difference in the base car. You no longer need the fancy gearbox, engine internals, ECU & etc to keep the 1.6L in the powerband --- the turbo does that for you and then some (+30hp and 80lb-ft over the R2 package output). So, the stock 6sp box will likely do with just a limited slip differential upgrade ($1000 + labor) and nothing more. And by the time you sell off the nice stock seats, and other bits you don't need for rally, it will come out close to even.

AND, now that you aren't in need of a full engine build, drivetrain build, and fabrication to go along with it (mounts etc), you can likely do everything short of the cage installation yourself with simple hand tools in the garage. And you still have a well engineered package with appropriate suspension, brakes, safety, and chassis protection (skid plates, etc). Heck, you may be able to save some more dough in the brake kit as the ST has upgraded brakes over the regular Fiesta so long as you can stuff them under the needed 15" wheels.

So, you would have a brand-new well engineered and likely competitive car for under $50k with minimal fabrication skills required.

Hell, anyone want to buy a couple of really nice Golves?

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

MattWatson — Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:08:57 -0600

One question: Why is everyone here so obsessed (over-exaggeration) with sponsorship from manufacturers? When WRC, ERC, ASDF and other acronyms exist, which are much higher and more prestigious are looking for sponsors, Bilstein, Ford, etc are going to them not to small people here.

Want sponsorship? Go elsewhere. In Alberta? Oil and Gas companys. There are 10 million oilfield services companies here. Talk to them. Get 50 No's before you get 1 yes, and hell it might only be for a couple grand. Elsewhere... I dunno... whats local? Who WOULDN'T be getting calls from this that and the other thing. Talk to them. Most companies have some sort of mandate to participate in the community and their marketing budget will offer cash and or sponsorships.

Nothing is free, do some work and you might get something back from it. You are asking for free money, so expect people to say no. Have a plan for what you are giving them in return. Keep the sponsors happy and they will stay with you. If you take the money and run, then they will tell you to f off next year. Updates, posters, thank-you's. Those will keep it.

I have done it before, and will try to do it again. And I did it in a sport that throws you down a shute in a fiberglass coffin. No manufacturers to get sponsors from there.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

LexusFman — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 15:13:22 -0600

If you think the fiesta is shit now cuz it's expensive, will it be good in 5-10 years?

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

JohnLane — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 15:08:32 -0600

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Clayto
Haha!!!
No way, gold bars!!! Way more $ per brick.

No gold!

They won't let us dig it outta the ground.

Our Government overlords would rather we didn't work.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Clayto — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 21:16:09 -0600

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john vanlandingham

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JohnLane

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john vanlandingham
Just get one, motor along at 37 mph and back the pickup to the armored car and start shovelling in the bundled 100s..

Don't be stupid!

Everyone knows that they will hand you a great big check....

Can't be having competitors injuring themselves handling all those bricks of C-Notes.

Wot was I thinking? What an oaf.

Hold on, in the armoured car delivering the dough, they probably have some kids , sub minimum wage who are like overjoyed to be working for the big star, like volunteers-groupies, and that would to the shoveling.

Haha!!!
No way, gold bars!!! Way more $ per brick.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

john vanlandingham — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 09:53:50 -0600

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JohnLane

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john vanlandingham
Just get one, motor along at 37 mph and back the pickup to the armored car and start shovelling in the bundled 100s..

Don't be stupid!

Everyone knows that they will hand you a great big check....

Can't be having competitors injuring themselves handling all those bricks of C-Notes.

Wot was I thinking? What an oaf.

Hold on, in the armoured car delivering the dough, they probably have some kids , sub minimum wage who are like overjoyed to be working for the big star, like volunteers-groupies, and that would to the shoveling.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

JohnLane — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 09:31:17 -0600

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john vanlandingham
Just get one, motor along at 37 mph and back the pickup to the armored car and start shovelling in the bundled 100s..

Don't be stupid!

Everyone knows that they will hand you a great big check....

Can't be having competitors injuring themselves handling all those bricks of C-Notes.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

john vanlandingham — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 22:49:58 -0600

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Clayto

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Mad Matt F

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Clayto

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd

Get an S40... Even the windshield washer motor says Ford.

http://www.autos.ca/car-test-drives/test-drive-2005-volvo-s40-t5-awd/

Looks like an Audi!!! Too rich for me, I drive an Escort with cheap replacements.....
That's funny. My engine says Mazduh, tranny says Kiuh, and my axles say Cardone:)

The S40 wheelbase is close enough to my Escort. Maybe on my search at the pick a part and see if S40's live there yet.

Those things really are Fucci underneath...
especially the stamped plate 1/8" junk FWD trash in back.

But they're NEW so instant sponsorship!
Don't fret them money to buy it, that's an investment. Think of all the moolah that will come flooding your way without effort.
Without results!
Just get one, motor along at 37 mph and back the pickup to the armored car and start shovelling in the bundled 100s..

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Clayto — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 22:39:14 -0600

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Mad Matt F

Quote
Clayto

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd

Get an S40... Even the windshield washer motor says Ford.

http://www.autos.ca/car-test-drives/test-drive-2005-volvo-s40-t5-awd/

Looks like an Audi!!! Too rich for me, I drive an Escort with cheap replacements.....
That's funny. My engine says Mazduh, tranny says Kiuh, and my axles say Cardone:)

The S40 wheelbase is close enough to my Escort. Maybe on my search at the pick a part and see if S40's live there yet.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Clayto — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 21:46:35 -0600

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Cosworth

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Clayto
Now if the silly Ford folks can revamp selling all the cool ones overseas and give US a few more I would be totally happy paying a little extra for a nice AWD Ford whosamawhatsit.

All we get are cool turbo powered fwd RS + ST

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd
You trying to say that those RS and ST are AWD in Europe??? Hmmm I think the last Ford car to come AWD was back in 1996! Right when FIA was changing from GrA to WRC rules.

No, not saying they do currently but they could again. My typing got away from me.... If they decide to do it again it would be nice to not leave the US out.

96 Sierra Cosworth was last one right?

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Mad Matt F — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 21:24:39 -0600

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Clayto

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd

Get an S40... Even the windshield washer motor says Ford.

http://www.autos.ca/car-test-drives/test-drive-2005-volvo-s40-t5-awd/

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Cosworth — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 21:18:31 -0600

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Clayto
Now if the silly Ford folks can revamp selling all the cool ones overseas and give US a few more I would be totally happy paying a little extra for a nice AWD Ford whosamawhatsit.

All we get are cool turbo powered fwd RS + ST

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd

You trying to say that those RS and ST are AWD in Europe??? Hmmm I think the last Ford car to come AWD was back in 1996! Right when FIA was changing from GrA to WRC rules.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

Clayto — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 21:10:49 -0600

Ford ended their WRC campaign in 2012 and left the privateers to take the reigns and go where they want to go with it.

They left a lot of race/shops to fill the gaps.

Since I've been in the Rallyality of finally acquiring a car and now constantly bookmarking sites of aftermarket race suppliers to the random message board threads to keep up with what and how folks are keeping it together, no matter what year make or model........and it seems that the best rally car is the one you currently have.

Now if the silly Ford folks can revamp selling all the cool ones overseas and give US a few more I would be totally happy paying a little extra for a nice AWD Ford whosamawhatsit.

All we get are cool turbo powered fwd RS + ST

Instead I go to bed wondering how to(call me crazy) convert my old fwd to awd

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

frumby — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 20:39:04 -0600

The new Fiesta ST has 200hp turbo motor. The Focus has a 250hp motor available. They look pretty nice, but well over 20,000 new.

Re: Cheap 2013 Fiesta for those wanting to build one

heymagic — Sun, 03 Nov 2013 12:38:21 -0600

Oddly enough we have an acquaintance living close by with an early Escort. It is an old race car or TSD rally car. We asked him to display at the Ford store but the engine was out and I think he was trying to get trans parts (I referred him to JV ).

A display of various Ford rally cars and any Ford competition car would be very helpful. We benefited last year from Block having his car over there on display while they were testing earlier in the year. I have a bit more time to work on it this year.

There are current generation Honda and Fords as well as a slew of other newish cars being rallied in the world, must be someone making parts and somehow people are financing the effort.