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Fulcrum
I don't think I've met anyone, outside of restorers, who has ever had the "recover money" thought when building a rally/race car.

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After one event, I sold my first build (2nd gen RX7) for exactly what I had put into it... but I was lucky and had the right buyer for it. I didn't plan to sell it, but the right circumstances came up.
The point was that any money put into building a Crown Vic ('cause that's what you mentioned) is likely thrown away while building something more commonly campaigned would allow you to probably recover a bit more in any event.

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Fulcrum
Though I agree on this being a whole other argument, I'm still going to comment on it. I decided to build because it gets my butt off the couch and I get to learn new things. Is this the best method to enter rally, especially since this is an "unsupported" car (B16 Nissan Sentra)? For some yes and for others no. I'll find out how well I did once I get it out on stage, or at least on local shakedown drives, both on (following the proper rules) and off road.

There have been a few Sentras run, but older body styles I think, so not a completely orphaned choice.
Without a doubt you'll learn a lot building your first car. For some, this is absolutely the way to go. For others, it isn't. I know several people who bought their first cars just to see if they are inetrested in the sport, and who were able to do a few events, learn build techniques and preferences from the 'mistakes' of their 'beginner car' and go on to build beautiful cars that were well put together after that.
I've also seen more people 'buy and try' the sport than I have seen 'wanna-be' builds completed. That is kind of frustrating. I've also seen people spend years on a build only to come out and realize they don't like the sport, or that it is more challenging than they thought.
But, this really is another argument completely.

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Not Trolling
I'd suggest you are focussing on the junkyard availability a bit too much, and need to consider the value of building something that has been built before

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Not Trolling
You should never plan to need to recover money from a rally build, but you should also never plan to NOT be able to recover some of your build cost.

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Not Trolling
I still recommend buying a first car, but that's a whole other argument.

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Fulcrum
I think we need to define "grassroots" here as I think you're referring more to events and competitions, while I'm referring to drivers and builders with a minimal budget.

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Fulcrum
Yet I could find a Crown Vic or Dodge Charger with a decent body for under $1500 if I wanted RWD or a Nissan if I want FWD. Please bear in mind these are what's easily available at the scrapyards within 45 minutes of here.

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Fulcrum
7 hour minimum to Perce Neige. 4.5 - 5 hours for Lanark and the rest. I misjudged where Lanark is run as I thought it was east of Ottawa.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
It is hard to compare the sport to local dirt track, or other grass roots sports, because it isn't the same for so many reasons

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Fulcrum
Yet the $7500-15K number that I put out was for only 1 or 2 events and not a full season, so I think I do have a decent starting point when it comes to costs (about $2500 for each weekend + car and gear).

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ElectroTech
LOL, see, here is what I mean. I’m talking the right nonerable Slime Minister.....

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ElectroTech
Lots, and well established......so beyond the “grassroots” phase?

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Not Trolling
The cost of the good starting shell is a small part of any build. A Crown Vic is a horrible place to start for a rally car, the reason you don't see them on stage has nothing to do with being outside of the rules. (Same can be said about v8 trucks to some degree.)
Start a thread about building a Crown Vic or a v8 Truck and I'll let John explain why.

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Not Trolling
In my mind, "ish" buys me up to 4 hours and according to Google Maps times you're within 4 hours of all the Ontario events and 6 hrs to Perce Neige.

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Not Trolling
It is hard to compare the sport to local dirt track, or other grass roots sports, because it isn't the same for so many reasons

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Not Trolling
The reality is that between towing, accommodations, and running costs, reprep you'll spend $7500 to do the season without touching the cap cost of the personal safety gear, rally car, trailer, or tow pig.

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Fulcrum
Why isn't Ottawa a hot bed?

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Fulcrum
Pull out a map and draw a line between Kingston and Tobermory and you will find most of Ontario's population south of said line. Tall Pines is about 5-6 hours for me, Lanark is 6-7 hours and the Burnt River facility (Rallysprint location) is 3-4 hours.
I'm in the heartland of Ontario at the 401/403 junction

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Fulcrum
I just used my own truck, and myself, as an example. Lots of old Crown Vics and Chargers available around here but I had to rule them out as a half decent, low costish, entry level option as the engine is simply too big.

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Fulcrum
Policing would be difficult, but not impossible. I would need to spend some time spitballing ideas with scrutineers and those more familiar with the tech to offer more suggestions...

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
Ontario is starting up a rallysprint series of 3 events this year, and it looks like it is getting some traction

Thanks for saying this as this is the first I've heard of it. With that said, I had to do some digging to find some information on this. $750 entry was all I could glean from Facebook before the popup appears, blocking my full screen, telling me to register and the PMSC website for dates and location, assuming the location remains the same for all 3.

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Fulcrum

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Not Trolling
Events like Perce Neige, Defi, or any of the Ontario Championship events are struggling and they are all 3 hrs-ish from major centres.

Define the major centres though. I'm in the heartland of Ontario at the 401/403 junction and there is nothing within 3 hours of me, on our side of the border at least as I haven't looked at New York events, outside of a couple of rallycross events in the Niagara area.

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Not Trolling
Ottawa should be a hotbed of activity then... but it ain't

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Not Trolling
Agreed, more promotion is important - but really falls down to the 'local' level if it is going to be done well.

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Not Trolling
with the truck, talk with your events and region about ways to be included.

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Not Trolling
I'd love to hear more about a simple hard-cap on power and torque.
Lets say you limit open awd to 300whp/400ft lbs.
- How do you enforce that at an event?
- Is the power at sea level, or at the event's altitude? (and then at the highest elevation of the event, the lowest elevation, or at service park)
- How do you prevent a dieselgate situation where the car is tested on one map and is on stage with another map?

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Not Trolling
Ontario is starting up a rallysprint series of 3 events this year, and it looks like it is getting some traction

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Not Trolling
Events like Perce Neige, Defi, or any of the Ontario Championship events are struggling and they are all 3 hrs-ish from major centres.

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ElectroTech
I’d agree, most people like to make a weekend out of things. Travel Friday, home Sunday night type of thing. Not overlapping with other events in the PNW for those that don’t mind yuuuge drives.

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ElectroTech
Seems CSCC and ERC don’t really march to the same drum, I know their are lots of members of ERC involved in stage Rally but it doesn’t appear to be a big thing on the organizations part.

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ElectroTech
Chasing affordability and overcoming the “big show” mentality need to be at the forefront, hard to get a bunch of sponsorship with the size of the fields...

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ElectroTech
...and I think it comes down to travel, if not the fact that someone in Edmonton, who is slightly interested in stage Rally, might wander on to the CARS site and see a few events, spread right across the country, and even the “local” ones being 13h away might not go any deeper.

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ElectroTech
I know John harps on the over the sea scene... the plain idea behind their tiny regions, and packed entry lists is clear to me.

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ElectroTech
If BW iand RMR costing that much for volunteers it seems that even though they are the premier events that it is unsustainable.

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ElectroTech
What is driving that cost?

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ElectroTech
Kelowna is a fair size city, seems that some volunteer based organization should be jumping at the chance to get a sizeable donation, and in time move from just covering the auxiliary roles to taking on primary responsibilities as they get experience.

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ElectroTech
As for Kananaskis I believe at the time a lot of that was chalked up to timing and the stars aligning against it.

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ElectroTech
Perhaps what really needs to happen is a pragmatic view on where the competitor base is and what needs to happen to better regionalize/shrink/split or whatever so that there are more events closer together. Depends on what the end goal has been and perhaps it needs to be addressed on a fundamental level.

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ElectroTech
There’s so many lurkers, with cars that have been on stage, or are really close, if you had 6 events within 3hrs of Calgary/Edmonton I think there would be an influx.

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ElectroTech
It’s hard enough to plan a family trip to the Okanagan for a week, let alone fuck off there, spend $5k for a weekend, Jesus you realize what $5k buys for a weekend in Vegas?? So I see kind of a thing there where the Okanagan has damn near enough of its own teams, and Alberta kind of the same, but stringing it out like it is strains resources on all fronts, competitor and volunteer.

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ElectroTech
We need a prairie rally, red deer area, med hat, etc, hell Ive identified roads up here that could support at minimum a kick ass Rally Sprint, and within the snowmobile, ATV and hunting clubs, along with sports leagues, volunteer fire departments etc there are a lot of volunteer resources that could be approached.

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ElectroTech
Changed jobs, I’m out of Camp and have a 4day work week now, hoping to help out more, maybe not directly but if there’s a lead to chase or roads to identify or some resource needed we need to get on it.

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ElectroTech
Need to have the ratio of travel and transit to stage miles a lot higher, 10:1 is just too high, 5:1 would get some meerkats poking their heads up.....

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ElectroTech
Cut the entry fees in half...

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ElectroTech
You did send me the cost breakdown of one of the premier events and the fucking banquet alone would make Trudeau blush.

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ElectroTech
It sickens me as a person building a car to have seen prices increase as much as they have and for what?

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ElectroTech
This bullshit figure for the county road maintenance due to a Rally just exemplifies how city folks don’t know fuck all about the actual costs of things...

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Fulcrum
Here's a few of my observations:
1a) Want to find competitor filmed stage videos of recent events? Either I'm looking in the wrong places or section 3.11 of the CARS GCR removes the legal ability of a competitor to upload in car footage, even though it was filmed by said competitor.

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CARS Rulebook
3.11 Commercial Rights
CARS is the sole holder of the commercial rights for visual images, and filming or recording of rallies run under its sanction.
Every person, body, group of persons, etc., organizing a competition or taking part therein shall by doing so or by and upon applying for an organizing permit or by and upon applying for a licence from CARS or by and upon entering a competition, be deemed to have and recognize that they:
(a) Recognize that commercial rights from sanctioned events belong to CARS;
(b) Agree that CARS may release or use particulars concerning participants in any of the events
including images of the participants for commercial purposes by CARS;
(c) Agree that CARS may access and use these images or film as part of its grievance and
disciplinary proceedings as well as in determining violation/compliance of its sporting regulations.
Competitors may install in-car cameras and film/record their participation in the event subject to the above regulations.

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Fulcrum
1b) CRC TV videos are well produced, but they seem to limit focus to the top 5 open AWD vehicles and the top 2 or 3 of the open 2WD. Granted they're only 25 minutes long so some cutting has to happen in order to fit that time window. Did I also mention that the commentator, though being very professional, is also very dry.

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Fulcrum
2) Rule changes that appear to be intended to reduce the costs of fielding a top producing vehicle yet wind up increasing costs because competitors are competitors and top level guys will find the next best thing to spend their money on. Rather than mandating restrictors and pop-off valves, how about a simple hard-cap on power and torque and let the competing teams decide how to achieve that end.

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Fulcrum
3) Figure out a way to include trucks other than Mazda and Ford Rangers. Why should my truck be ruled out just because it's displacement is greater than 4000cc (this is the only rule that is stopping it)? Sure these trucks might run 400-500HP, but they're also 7000lbs+.

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Fulcrum
4) Unlike other motorsport disciplines, if you're not involved in the rally scene than there is a good chance that you may not have heard of rally before. CARS, along with local clubs, need to get out amongst the general public to introduce the sport to new people. New people means more rides and more rides mean more entries. Up until 2016, I was under the impression that Canadian rally was dead outside of TSD events.

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Fulcrum
5) The trailer "issue". I'm not sure if it was a CARS rule or a Tall Pines rule, but only enclosed trailers, and not flat decks, were allowed in the service park.

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Fulcrum
I know I'm new here, but these are a few things that I have noticed.

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Not Trolling
But ease of use and the ubiquitousness of the next MySpace is simply too attractive to the youngins today. (This is far from the only forum that is suffering.)=

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Not Trolling
And... its a real shame. This place had some great discussions and good information that could be found between the piles.