Any preference on wiring one up (positive vs. negative). NHRA requires the positive be switched but I can't find anything in either rules that speaks to how it's wired. I see 2 ways. To switch positive: battery > switch > starter/accessories. With the alternator charge cable run to the battery side of the switch to kill all power to ecu/fuel pump. Or just simply switch the negative to cut power. Anything I'm missing???? https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24106#msg-24106 Sun, 07 Jun 2026 12:19:04 -0500 Phorum 5.2.15a https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,26339#msg-26339 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,26339#msg-26339 token-negro Construction Zone Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:40:32 -0500 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24404#msg-24404 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24404#msg-24404
better information..
http://www.bussmann.com/pdf/15e0468b-2837-4360-aeb8-6d391d3f173b.pdf

they also make nice master switches. I have a master switch in the center of the dash for an emergency shut off. It can be reach from either side of the car.]]> Sackett Construction Zone Sat, 07 Mar 2009 10:01:35 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24368#msg-24368 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24368#msg-24368 -------------------------------------------------------
> This is wrong.
> Andrew_Frick.


Yes correct - I wrote that line backwards - Doh.

So reverse this statement "(electrons can't get from the + post on the
> battery to the - post on the battery). "

To "electrons Can't get from the - post on the battery to the + post on the battery."

However, the rest remains true.

> In the switched negative situation if the battery
> flops around. You can now get sparks in every
> circuit since the + is trying to pull electrons
> from everywhere. So all circuits could have
> electrons flowing down them and thus the whole
> harness becomes a fire hazard.
>

This does finally make some sense in why everyone says switch the Positive. ]]> mack73 Construction Zone Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:19:11 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24360#msg-24360 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24360#msg-24360 NoCoast Construction Zone Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:18:14 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24359#msg-24359 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24359#msg-24359 >
> Well not really. The risk is the same if the
> switch was on the + or -
>
> Since the voltage needs to flow in a circle,
> disrupting the path at any point (before or after
> the device) will result in the same event
> (electrons can't get from the + post on the
> battery to the - post on the battery). The only
> difference is where the electrons are held up: at
> the + switch or you guessed it, at the - switch.
>
>
>
> So in your example: if switching positive, but the
> battery were to flop around and the + post or the
> wire leading from the battery to the master switch
> came in contact with the body = sparks of fun.
>
> If the switch was on the negative and the battery
> were to flop around and the - post or the wire
> leading from the ground switch to the battery came
> in contact with the body = sparks of fun.
>
> I understand what your getting at but if the -
> battery cable was removed from the battery and you
> touched a positive cable from the battery to the
> car, you don't get any sparks do you?
>
> So which battery cable do you take off first when
> removing a battery
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Mar 3, 2009 by
> mack73.


This is wrong. Electrons flow from the negative terminal of the battery to the positive terminal on the battery. Electrons are negatively charged. The reason the positive sparks is that steel and may other materials for that matter have lots of extra or weakly retained electrons that are basically getting sucked out of the material by the positive source. Causing the spark to jump from the negative to the positive.

The reason the negative does not spark is that both sides have plenty of electrons so there is nothing that is motivating them to start flowing.

You are right in my setup if that battery flops around there will be sparks to the battery or the lead that goes to the switch from whatever started touching it. But the sparks will be limited to the battery and cable that comes form the lead since the switch is preventing the rest of the system from seeing the + attraction of the battery.

In the switched negative situation if the battery flops around. You can now get sparks in every circuit since the + is trying to pull electrons from everywhere. So all circuits could have electrons flowing down them and thus the whole harness becomes a fire hazard.]]> Andrew_Frick Construction Zone Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:12:33 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24294#msg-24294 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24294#msg-24294 Rallymech Construction Zone Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:59:19 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24290#msg-24290 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24290#msg-24290 -------------------------------------------------------
> So I don't see how the breaker on the negative is
> safe when compared to the positive source. Say if
> you have a wreck were the batteries negative post
> is grounded to the body or the wire from the
> negative post on the battery to the switch
> grounded to the body your negative switch is no
> useless in shutting off the car or isolating the
> battery from the electrical system.


Well not really. The risk is the same if the switch was on the + or -

Since the voltage needs to flow in a circle, disrupting the path at any point (before or after the device) will result in the same event (electrons can't get from the + post on the battery to the - post on the battery). The only difference is where the electrons are held up: at the + switch or you guessed it, at the - switch.


So in your example: if switching positive, but the battery were to flop around and the + post or the wire leading from the battery to the master switch came in contact with the body = sparks of fun.

If the switch was on the negative and the battery were to flop around and the - post or the wire leading from the ground switch to the battery came in contact with the body = sparks of fun.

I understand what your getting at but if the - battery cable was removed from the battery and you touched a positive cable from the battery to the car, you don't get any sparks do you?

So which battery cable do you take off first when removing a battery ;)]]> mack73 Construction Zone Tue, 03 Mar 2009 12:23:13 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24281#msg-24281 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24281#msg-24281 NoCoast Construction Zone Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:04:31 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24275#msg-24275 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24275#msg-24275
IIRC, there's no specific rule around having a manual electrical cutoff, is there? so its pretty much just dowhatchyalike?]]> Jon Burke Construction Zone Mon, 02 Mar 2009 23:27:30 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24258#msg-24258 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24258#msg-24258
The switched positive has been in use for years and is probably great and many people who have had the negative breaker put in still are using a positive switch. I know in my case when I had a short, the breaker would have helped, the positive switch was too late, and that the switches are usually just an annoyance/scare/complication/added expense to me, but what do I know I'm only on my second rally car and have only been rallying for 5 years or so.

PS> Won't the ignition switch accomplish much of the same things as a master power switch?]]> NoCoast Construction Zone Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:10:52 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24256#msg-24256 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24256#msg-24256 -------------------------------------------------------
> So I don't see how the breaker on the negative is
> safe when compared to the positive source. Say if
> you have a wreck were the batteries negative post
> is grounded to the body or the wire from the
> negative post on the battery to the switch
> grounded to the body your negative switch is no
> useless in shutting off the car or isolating the
> battery from the electrical system.

Yep afterall where does neg on battery go?
Straight to the body. Thus it in essence IS the same as body.

Unless there's some massive load on, and neg is loose somewhere like in open, there isn't going to be any excitment if neg toughes.

+ on the other hand, yikes!
So i want to cut off + at the place lots of + energy is stored---the + terminal of the battery.

But what the fuck do I know?


]]> john vanlandingham Construction Zone Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:37:45 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24255#msg-24255 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24255#msg-24255 Andrew_Frick Construction Zone Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:06:26 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24231#msg-24231 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24231#msg-24231 -------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks guys.
>
> I think I'm going to forget the master switch and
> stick a breaker on the ground. Everything that
> isn't running on the stock wiring (ECU, Lights,
> Fan, Fuel Pump) is going to be running through
> individual breakers anyways.
>
> I'm looking at this breaker: (Bussman 150 amp.)
>
> I'll keep a pre-terminated battery cable in the
> car to jump the breaker incase it fails.
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com


Seems like a very good idea. Some thoughts: Look and heed any instructions for mounting on a metal surface or in clear air or whatever. This is a thermal only type of breaker so has a finite internal resistance and will produce some small degree of heat for its action' extranl haet sources can effect its trip point. The mfgr should give instructions on how to mount. I would not want a 'nuisance trip' on-stage at night when I had 6 100W Halogen lights going just becasue I mounted this on the floor where the exhaust could heat it, and it got just a bit too hot for a bit too long!

Regards,
Mark B.
]]> starion887 Construction Zone Sun, 01 Mar 2009 08:13:48 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24230#msg-24230 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24230#msg-24230 http://wiringproducts.com/index1.html

But whatever you do don't order it from these motherfuckers. $100 order of stuff never showed and unfortunately was during a really busy period for me and kept calling and sending emails with no response regarding my order and went beyond the chargeback date. I think someone said they got one at Autozone too.

RE: Breaker failure, quite a few options, but the easiest is to just bolt both onto one terminal if the breaker were to fail.]]> NoCoast Construction Zone Sun, 01 Mar 2009 08:01:21 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24225#msg-24225 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24225#msg-24225 http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/1333043/vpcsid/0/SFV/30046]]> Jon Burke Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:10:18 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24224#msg-24224 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24224#msg-24224
I think I'm going to forget the master switch and stick a breaker on the ground. Everything that isn't running on the stock wiring (ECU, Lights, Fan, Fuel Pump) is going to be running through individual breakers anyways.

I'm looking at this breaker: (Bussman 150 amp.) http://www.keefeperformance.com/circuit_breakers.html

I'll keep a pre-terminated battery cable in the car to jump the breaker incase it fails. ]]> mack73 Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:03:06 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24221#msg-24221 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24221#msg-24221 -------------------------------------------------------
> Got a picture on my phone but having network
> issues getting it to myself. The idea is courtesy
> of Salta Motorsports who have done the same in
> about 10 other rally cars in Colorado and was
> used/tested in Mitch Williams cars all last year
> during the USRC, as well as many cars at Rally
> Colorado, Rally Idaho, and other Southwest Cup
> events.
> It's a 150 amp and I got it direct from Salta. I
> did set it up so it's easy to bypass it if the
> breaker were to fail.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

That breaker idea is smart thinking 101.
]]> hudson Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:05:31 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24217#msg-24217 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24217#msg-24217 It's a 150 amp and I got it direct from Salta. I did set it up so it's easy to bypass it if the breaker were to fail.]]> NoCoast Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:12:24 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24204#msg-24204 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24204#msg-24204
If the switch is close to the battery, I can't see much difference in + or -. We have done both; the only disadvantege I have seen in the - side is that the switch has some finite resistance, and the resistance to ground of the battery through a switch is not as low as with the switch in the + side. As a result, we have had some noise issues in the intercom in the - lead installation we did on one car.

From a wreck standpoint, maybe the best lead is the one that is shrotest from the battery to the switch. This minimizes the chance fo having a hard short in a wreck between the switch and the battery post. Just thinking out loud.

Regards,
Mark B.

mack73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok so I guess I'm back to my origional question:
> Switch the positive or negative?
>
> I would rather switch the negative for easy of
> wiring. Good, bad, indiferent?
>
> Grant: what size breaker do you have on the
> ground? 100? 150? 175? amps
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Feb 27, 2009 by
> mack73.


]]> starion887 Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:27:46 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24203#msg-24203 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24203#msg-24203
This breaker idea seems pretty good. But do you carry a jumper for jumping around the breaker just in case? Breakers can fail, 'specially when they are subjected to a lot fo shock and vibration. This is just a suggestion.

Regards,
Mark B.


NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In 2004 I went off thanks to a patch of glare ice
> and gravel tires in my rally car while driving
> through the mountains to a rally cross. A pole
> came under the bumper and took out a few
> components and shorted some wires to the ground.
> I was almost instantly on the master battery kill
> switch after the wreck, but still ended up having
> to replace a large amount of the wiring harness
> that had burnt.
>
> With my current setup, the short would have
> tripped the breaker on the battery ground and the
> harness would have probably survived.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


]]> starion887 Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:20:22 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24200#msg-24200 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24200#msg-24200
I would rather switch the negative for easy of wiring. Good, bad, indiferent?

Grant: what size breaker do you have on the ground? 100? 150? 175? amps]]> mack73 Construction Zone Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:01:15 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24175#msg-24175 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24175#msg-24175
With my current setup, the short would have tripped the breaker on the battery ground and the harness would have probably survived.]]> NoCoast Construction Zone Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:43:19 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24173#msg-24173 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24173#msg-24173
No, it's 100% the right idea to have a master cutoff to the battery. Just don't turn the switch off while running normally. The reason you DO want to cut of the battery entirely in an emergency/wreck is the you could have a major short in the car due to the damage, and the amount of energy that a battery can put into a hard short will start fires in very short order. Also, a rapid discharge of a battery through a hard short can cause so much heat in a bettery that it can explode or melt the top off and catch on fire. FOR REAL! You do not want a shorted battery discharging anywhere close to anyone or anything.

The separate fuel cutoff switch is an excellent idea too. Cut that off and the engine will stop running very quickly, 'specially on a high pressure pump of an FI car. Putting it in line with the coil to the fuel pump relay or it's control line form the ECU is a good place. For carburated cars, just use it to control the fuel pump power directly, or through a relay.

Place both switches where either driver or navvie can reach them but not where they can be easily bumped by accident. And kick yourself in the a** the first time you forget to re-enable the fuel pump switch after you cut it off for some work, and then panicked 'cuz you thought something had died!!

Regards,
Mark B.


mack73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So bad idea for a "master" battery off switch?
>
> What about just running all of my accessories
> through one of these switches then to a normal
> on/off switch.
>
> That way in an emergency the master off can kill
> everything (ecu, fans, lights, fuel pump, etc)
> without actually removing the battery entirely.
>
> Or is this overkill, just put them on normal
> switches that are easy enough to flick off in one
> swoop of the hand rather than fiddling with a
> twisting knob thing
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com


]]> starion887 Construction Zone Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:56:18 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24165#msg-24165 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24165#msg-24165
The ignition switch, start button and kill switch are all beside each other where the radio/HVAC used to be.

Theres a ground from the battery to chassis and extra grounds from alt/starter to chassis.

To shut the car down I can kill the ignition and THEN the battery.
]]> david amor Construction Zone Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:33:28 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24158#msg-24158 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24158#msg-24158 -------------------------------------------------------
> Jon,
>
> The battery is an important part of the electrical
> system when the car and alternator are running.
> The battery acts as an electrical ballast to keep
> any spikes in voltage out of the system. One
> should never purposely switch off the battery when
> the car is running or the resulting spike as the
> battery 'load' on the system is removed can damage
> a lot of electrical stuff. It's not guaranteed to
> happen but it sure can. (For example, older Ford
> electromechanical regulators were guranteed dead
> the instant the battery was disconneted; ask me
> how I learned that one!) With ECU's and such I
> would never disconnect a battery on a running car.
> I have to wonder if your 3+ year battery had an
> intermittent cell short or open that was causing
> this.
>
> Regards,
> Mark B.


learn something new every day! That makes sense. Well, makes a LOT of sense since the new battery fixed the issue.



I'm thinking two master switches is a good idea....a master switch on the battery (pos) and then the above master w/relay for the starter/ (with the relay switch somewhere in the interior).

]]> Jon Burke Construction Zone Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:00:07 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24154#msg-24154 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24154#msg-24154
What about just running all of my accessories through one of these switches then to a normal on/off switch.

That way in an emergency the master off can kill everything (ecu, fans, lights, fuel pump, etc) without actually removing the battery entirely.

Or is this overkill, just put them on normal switches that are easy enough to flick off in one swoop of the hand rather than fiddling with a twisting knob thing]]> mack73 Construction Zone Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:53:38 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24152#msg-24152 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24152#msg-24152
The battery is an important part of the electrical system when the car and alternator are running. The battery acts as an electrical ballast to keep any spikes in voltage out of the system. One should never purposely switch off the battery when the car is running or the resulting spike as the battery 'load' on the system is removed can damage a lot of electrical stuff. It's not guaranteed to happen but it sure can. (For example, older Ford electromechanical regulators were guranteed dead the instant the battery was disconneted; ask me how I learned that one!) With ECU's and such I would never disconnect a battery on a running car. I have to wonder if your 3+ year battery had an intermittent cell short or open that was causing this.

Regards,
Mark B.]]> starion887 Construction Zone Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:14:17 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24147#msg-24147 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24147#msg-24147 -------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok,I get it...makes perfect sense. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Last question (for now), I've seen batt
> relocation
> > kits that have a 15ft positive wire, but only
> a 3
> > foot ground...so is it acceptable to just put
> a
> > ground post next to the battery and run
> ground
> > through the chassis from there?
>
> Jon, think about this yourself--follow along.
> What does the battery ground to in the original
> location?
> Right the body shell.
>
> Next, is the bodyshell in the front of the car
> connected to the bodyshell in the back?
>
> Right its all the same steel.
>
> In fact all the circuits use the bodyshell as the
> ground.
> Ground the battery to a good clean spot and all is
> well.
>
>
> >
> > I realize you'd also have to make sure the
> > alternator is grounded properly in the engine
> bay
> > as well.
>
> Think now: whats the biggest load?
> Right, the starter.
>
> Now if we feed it with a big fuckin fat cable, you
> do know that you have to have an equally large
> ground dontcha?
> Soooooooooooooooo, just run a ground, like as fat
> a cable as the fat + cable to the starter, from
> block to say the old original ground.
>
> >
> > i'm trying to minimize voltage drop...I have
> a
> > LinkG3 ECU and its pretty sensitive
> electrically.
> > My tuner basically said to NOT relocate the
> > battery, but for space and a few other
> things, I
> > need to move it.
>
> Why?
> Isn't VREF like 5V?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> > Blog:
> > 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Thanks John, I forget how scary simple electricity is sometimes.

and I'm not sure on the vref for this ecu...all I know is I was having a 'hesitation' issue between certain RPMS for a while....we pulled plugs, coils, etc...everything was fine, but the ecu was pulling timing for some reason. (like 17 degrees of timing)

Battery was +3yrs old, but car started fine, no issues. But sure enough, put a new battery in there an everything was fine. What I don't get is, nothing is supposed to run off the battery when the car is running and the alt is fine, so its annoying for sure.

I emailed the mfg about it, we'll see what they say...but I would think a 1ga wire from the back of the drivers seat should be fine.]]> Jon Burke Construction Zone Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:01:22 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24135#msg-24135 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24135#msg-24135 NoCoast Construction Zone Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:00:41 -0600 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24132#msg-24132 https://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?5,24106,24132#msg-24132 -------------------------------------------------------
> ok,I get it...makes perfect sense. Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> Last question (for now), I've seen batt relocation
> kits that have a 15ft positive wire, but only a 3
> foot ground...so is it acceptable to just put a
> ground post next to the battery and run ground
> through the chassis from there?

Jon, think about this yourself--follow along.
What does the battery ground to in the original location?
Right the body shell.

Next, is the bodyshell in the front of the car connected to the bodyshell in the back?

Right its all the same steel.

In fact all the circuits use the bodyshell as the ground.
Ground the battery to a good clean spot and all is well.


>
> I realize you'd also have to make sure the
> alternator is grounded properly in the engine bay
> as well.

Think now: whats the biggest load?
Right, the starter.

Now if we feed it with a big fuckin fat cable, you do know that you have to have an equally large ground dontcha?
Soooooooooooooooo, just run a ground, like as fat a cable as the fat + cable to the starter, from block to say the old original ground.

>
> i'm trying to minimize voltage drop...I have a
> LinkG3 ECU and its pretty sensitive electrically.
> My tuner basically said to NOT relocate the
> battery, but for space and a few other things, I
> need to move it.

Why?
Isn't VREF like 5V?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> Blog:
> 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10


]]> john vanlandingham Construction Zone Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:34:18 -0600