john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Marketing is all visual.
> >
> > Feisty Peacock?
>
> Damn I guess that counts you out then.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


Very Possibly. And frankly, thats how it goes. Why should I sit around and waste my time bitching and moaning about it? Whats that going to accomplish? NOTHING. Your not going to change how sponsors view you by whining about them.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dave Shindle, as Leon would say "you are a dickhead"!! get your facts straight, I have been Leons Friend for more than 12 years He moved in with me for 3 months after he left his wife , long befor Lisa came into his life, the Governmant emminent domained his company as well as 1504 other businesses, so you are implying that the other 1504 businesses lost there property because of Lisa?? Also regarding selling the Escort, Leon is in the process of starting 3 new businesses and he knows sometimes you have to make sacrafices to make money, thats why he sold the escory, Dave Get your fact straight!!
John Watson
Ca

I know Leon misses you on as he calls it "Stupid Stage" !!
He keeps talking about you building him another Escort once things get "cranking" business wise
thanks I like the way you "don't mince your words" I know Leon always felt on the outside in rally America as he always spoke his mind and boy Rally America does not like that, he has been threatoned with a beating over comments on the cost of rallies in club events etc!! sheeetttt
John

You know, I'm sure Leon and Lisa are very good people and very fun and nice and smart, etc. Maybe it's just resentment because I see myself and my friends spending most of our money on rally cars, and seeing excellent drivers like Aaron McConnell priced out of the sport due to cost while Lisa gets paid rides and sponsorship because she's female and makes exaggerated claims or does things to make herself look like a better driver with better results than in reality. I have no problem with working your way to the top, and I hugely respect working hard to achieve your goals, but, as the title says, I'll never respect bullshit hype and trumped up stories/trophies to make yourself look good. And that's why I'll probably never have sponsors and I am perfectly fine with that.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, I'm sure Leon and Lisa are very good
> people and very fun and nice and smart, etc.
> Maybe it's just resentment because I see myself
> and my friends spending most of our money on rally
> cars, and seeing excellent drivers like Aaron
> McConnell priced out of the sport due to cost
> while Lisa gets paid rides and sponsorship because
> she's female and makes exaggerated claims or does
> things to make herself look like a better driver
> with better results than in reality. I have no
> problem with working your way to the top, and I
> hugely respect working hard to achieve your goals,
> but, as the title says, I'll never respect
> bullshit hype and trumped up stories/trophies to
> make yourself look good. And that's why I'll
> probably never have sponsors and I am perfectly
> fine with that.

Yeah that can be a bitter pill for sure. But without sponsors you have your private life and don't have to be a media whore that has to constantly watch ones tongue (depends on the level of sponsors of course)

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

John Watson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Isn't it interesting how jealous people get when
> someone gets what they cannot get
> I have know Lisa for 3 years now , yup she is a
> little strange at times, over excited I call it,
> she has an intense passion for rally and promotes
> herself well
> She gets approached by many sponsers, I asked ACT
> why they sponser her when she is relatively
> unknown and still learning to race and was told
> its because she self promotes and does have a huge
> fan base, Act also went on to tell me at Sema they
> had Tanner Foust and Lisa in their booth at the
> same time signing autographs and Lisa was signing
> more autographs then Tanner was
> Lisa has had 2 teams approach het to drive for
> them do they care if she is fast or not?? No ,
> they care about marketability, after a recent
> drift event it was Lisas picture in the paper, not
> her faster team mates
> Sure at Pikes last year she wanted to beat
> Micheles time, I know Leon would like to beat that
> time as well , Lisa is enthusiastic and likes to
> set goals in her life
> I say good on her
> I want to race but suck at marketing so sit and
> watch
> Lisa drives for 3 teams how many do you drive for
> Grant?? how much do you spend to race, Lisa gets
> paid to race so good for her
> You go gal
> John watson

because she's female. congradulations on being born female.

anyone who makes such a completely unrealistic goal deserves to be laughed at.

i know grant spends entirely too much of his time and money and money he doesn't have to race.

John Watson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another thing that bothers me is they give Lisa
> shit for her national rally win at Rim, yup it was
> not on traditional stages but if my memory serves
> me correct last year or the one before either wild
> west or Oregan trails rally lost its roads and it
> ended up like Rim, basicly a rally sprint, are
> you saying the winner(can't remember who prob Pat
> R or Travis,s win does not count as a win??
> The "rallysprint" Rim event was tough because one
> missed shift , of line once and you dropped 10
> places, she beat Leon/George and a bunch of other
> drivers
> Is she up to Travis,s level?? no of course not,
> she never says she is, she just likes to let
> people know she is racing and that makes the
> sponsers very happy
> John W

both events rallycrosses and no i don't count either as a win. big deal if you miss a shift you drop 10 places, same at all rallycrosses if you have enough entrants.

sagsert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In all honesty here is what I have to say.
>
> Leon and Lisa are both my good friends. I fail to
> understand how easily people pass judgement on
> people they have never met, never broke bread
> with.
>
> Leon is a hard working SOB. He is a smart
> entrepreneur, who knows when to bet, when to hold
> and he never counts his money before the deal is
> done (damn you Kenny Rogers). Sometimes it is a
> lot smarter to cut bait rather than continue to
> fish, sometimes Titan throws a foul ball at you
> and you cut the line and let the fish go. It's his
> business, he can run it or close it which ever way
> he pleases. His personal life ain't nobody's damn
> business either. He is a fast driver with a boat
> load of talent. Those he spanked with a lesser car
> may have a beef and talk shit about him but those
> who watched him drive can actually appreciate his
> talent.
>
> Lisa is the young talent of US Rallying. Her
> enthusiasm and drive is unfuckingbelievable. Se
> lives, breaths, eats, drikns and works her ass off
> for rallying. So what if she id drifting, how many
> people know that she is spending every penny she
> makes from drifting in her rally effort ? I
> applaud her dedication and commitment to rallying.
> If we had 20 more rallyists like her in the US we
> would perhaps have WRC Champions from our country
> instead of going oooooh-aaaaah at a bunch of
> Europeans. So what if she is unconventional, so
> what if she is a Punk Rocker, so what if she is a
> good looking chick in her early twenties ? She is
> fast, she has talent, she attracts crowds,
> youngsters ASSOCIATE with her. Over and above all
> she is a true amateur who is taking the right
> steps to become a professinal. I say TRUE AMATEUR
> taking the RIGHT STEPS, not like some asswipe who
> is buddies with this or that guy who has a motive
> or other and getting a free ride for a season to
> be the new big hit.
>
> Don't be jealous because she is sponsored, don't
> talk shit about her without knowing her, watch
> what she is doing and try to learn from her the
> art of getting sponsors.
>
> That's all I have to say about it.
>
> Cheers
> M.Samli
> Phoenix AZ
> Gaylant VR4
> EVO II GSR
>
>
> Rallies are no place for traitors

people make judgements all the time about people they don't know.

i know several people currently spending nearly every penny they make on rally. not only every penny but most waking hours that are available. eat, live, breathe? you should see the shirts.

i'm not jealous, but if there is hype and you don't live up to that hype (badly), you make it that much more difficult for the rest of us.

---

-Mark
www.nocoastmotorsports.net

I think Mustafa is trying to give you guys some well experienced advice. If you are spending every dime you make on a sport in the U.S. that is still not big enough to pay the middle of the field back anything in return enough to make the investment make total sense(if you land a podium finish), then you have a gambling problem.
What do I know, right? Well, I know I've been very humbled to spend time, and work on generating capital to just be around folks, learn their stories, and regurgitate it back in the electronic form when possible with no regard to who is going to give a real damn. Sure I spread myself on thick marketing wise, but it has paid off, and I'm in no way making a profit, but making friends for life makes one way more rich.

I think Mustafa is reminding you that etiquette trumps any one person or a groups hype, and if one can stand on their principles enough to take their creative vision to the next level, so what if the are mid grade. Opportunities are that, and you just have to look at them as that. So what if you fall on your face, just get back up, and press on like the rally mantra states. Talking shit only makes you appear as soiled as your words, unless you are fertilizing progression.

MArk, I never met you in CO, and you guys never even really introduced yourselves when I was in your presence. Were you jealous that I had a sponsor who paid for me( a virtual nobody from hicksville, nc) to come out and just gather footage for myself, not even the brand that was supporting the trip? If so, bad form sir. We here in the south still have posture and I consider myself a post modern southern gentleman with a punk rock exterior. Blame it on my enviroment through the years.

For a group of folks that have so many resources, you guys in CO act like a bunch of spoiled brats that never can get enough. Be thankful, and pass on the gratitude. It gets you much further, even if it doesn't bring you the financial reward.

BTW, Mustafa at the next event where I see you and Burak, please coach me out of my shell, as I was star struck by you sir at Sandblast, and was a bit busy with my daughter. My close friend Oscar speaks highly of both of you. JVL, thanks for offering up your resources here for me to lay this out as well.

May all of you on anarchy bask in its freedom.

-Jonathan

---

I roll so deep in the grass that I touch roots...
http://www.rallyboy.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 09:49AM by rallyboy.

rallyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> MArk, I never met you in CO, and you guys never
> even really introduced yourselves when I was in
> your presence. Were you jealous that I had a
> sponsor who paid for me( a virtual nobody from
> hicksville, nc) to come out and just gather
> footage for myself, not even the brand that was
> supporting the trip? If so, bad form sir. We
> here in the south still have posture and I
> consider myself a post modern southern gentleman
> with a punk rock exterior. Blame it on my
> enviroment through the years.


Believe me, nobody cared enough about any sponsors to "snub" you. Perhaps people were busy doing their own thing and worrying about themselves or just didn't care enough to put forth the effort to go out of their way to introduce themselves to just one of the many people they had never met before. Or maybe they just weren't interested in meeting you? It takes a lot of ego to think so highly of one's self to believe that people would A] want so badly to meet them and B] people would avoid an introduction for something as silly as a sponsor. I've got nothing against you Jonathan but come on, seriously?


>
> For a group of folks that have so many resources,
> you guys in CO act like a bunch of spoiled brats
> that never can get enough.

How different things look from the other side of the country. The community out here worked very very hard to develop the opportunities that we have. From spending years going to meetings trying to convince the CHCA that we should be let into their sand box to some individuals spending hundreds, if not thousands, out of their own pockets to build, support, and maintain CORE. We have it pretty good but we worked for it and we do what we can to keep it going and make it better. But spoiled, I think you have a very skewed view of how things are out here and that doesn't really surprise me in the slightest.

Kevin, I'm surprised, as you being a customer of mine previously, you sure can carry your weight. I'm not sure as to what surprise you are eluding to from my misconstrued perspective. I'm calling it as I have seen it, and my ego?
I'm sorry I was raised that courtesy goes a long way, and I grew up with folks from all over the world coming in and out of our home through the Rotarian club my stepfather was a member of. We were a host family for visiting ambassadors from other countries, and had learned introducing yourself was proper, and those who didn't were rude. I've come a long way socially from those days, but still feel quite amazed by how rude we are as a country of individuals wanting to be part of something but distantly unique at the same time. I stand corrected sir if you have had to go against adverse situations to get your way, but there is a time to fight, and a time to give thanks, and I don't see much gratitude to the system from your "club." Did you build the system? No, but you can make or break it. Just take it from a trained sculptor, if you break things against their fault lines too much, what you are trying to free only breaks under the pressure as you are stuck looking at the remains of something that could've been so much greater than yourself.

-Jonathan

---

I roll so deep in the grass that I touch roots...
http://www.rallyboy.com

rallyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> K
> I'm sorry I was raised that courtesy goes a long
> way, and I grew up with folks from all over the
> world coming in and out of our home through the
> Rotarian club my stepfather was a member of. We
> were a host family for visiting ambassadors from
> other countries, and had learned introducing
> yourself was proper, and those who didn't were
> rude. I've come a long way socially from those
> days, but still feel quite amazed by how rude we
> are as a country of individuals wanting to be part
> of something but distantly unique at the same
> time.

Hey Johnaton,
I was raised in the South, and then I moved to Europe in the late '60s , on my own at 17, to go race. It was a FAR more CLASS BOUND and FORMAL place then than I was used to.
Then I spent years in Sweden, a socially egalitarian society, like all the Northern countries.

When I was fast enough, just just enough- to make a living racing, I diod that where the pay was the best for me: France. And there I found a middle ground.
And explanations for the whole purpose of the IDEAL of "social manners" and of the reasons why some elements work to "keep up standards".

On a simple day to day level, like when you come in a store, a little Bon Jour monsieur lets ME know they've noticed I've come in, and my bonjour madame lets then know I heard them. It eases social interaction.
You should see the way I smoke cigarettes, a social ice breaking thing I first began doing in France in '77 (It makes Rasta-hits of de spliff look lightweight) which I've now done in dozens of situations even in China, and it never fails.
Shoulders relax, smiles break out when they see me smoke THEIR local ciggies and really hit them hard.

However in case you don't know it, in the South, the purpose of much of the "manners" is not to smooth social interactions, but to be social MARKERS, to delineate and differentiate stratum in society, and of course the roots go back, like everything in the South, to a time when there was a obvious "Gentry".
Now that doesn't mean that manners, and introducing yourself , and that lost thing in America "shaking hands", doesn't have a place, but it does mean that YOU, raised by parents wanting to be proper, should expect that others, raised in different systems and different values, should adhere or even be aware of what YOU consider, NORMAL.
Indeed, when out of your normal social network, it seems the wisest course is to withhold all value judgments, because , if we were raised correctly, then we know that our view is always a limited one, and we know the what is right is always a matter of time and place.

Asking a real question now, but are you aware that for many people, the front of propriety, which we see bruited about so much by the perpetually indignant vocal few at SS.com is by large segments of the population looked at as a smarmy, treacley facade, and from long experience we nearly always KNOW that those most concerned with "Propriety" and "Good manners" are most often back stabbing, hypocritical, and often downright mean and vindictive individuals?

So what I'm saying is relax, some people aren't as social as folks are in the South, hell most of the country isn't social at all.

I've said this when I've been dismayed by the hurt and enraged reactions of say, some teenaged frat boy type with a stock BMW he's had on his "site" listed as his "RALLYCAR" for a couple of years:
"These guys think that if I don't stick my hand in their jeans and give them a loving stroke job, then I've insulted them and their family and their damn dog".


Taking offense at (mis)perceived "slights" to one sense of manners is a deplorable and just too Southern trait---which has spread too far into American society in general.

In short, chill dude, you're harshin everybody's mellow.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

FACT: Press releases or not, Rallyestar is a TOTAL hottie. Unmf!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2008 01:44PM by MattJohnston.

rallyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Mustafa is trying to give you guys some
> well experienced advice. If you are spending
> every dime you make on a sport in the U.S. that is
> still not big enough to pay the middle of the
> field back anything in return enough to make the
> investment make total sense(if you land a podium
> finish), then you have a gambling problem.
> What do I know, right? Well, I know I've been
> very humbled to spend time, and work on generating
> capital to just be around folks, learn their
> stories, and regurgitate it back in the electronic
> form when possible with no regard to who is going
> to give a real damn. Sure I spread myself on
> thick marketing wise, but it has paid off, and I'm
> in no way making a profit, but making friends for
> life makes one way more rich.

it's not gambling, it's a passion and a hobby. if i was investing my money, time, and effort into this sport expecting any type of reasonable return i would be deluding myself. heck, if i could break even on anything that would be nice.

spreading it on a little thick would be an understatement in my mind. but that's just me.

nearly all of the friends that i have are from the rally community and i agree, that alone is worth everything.

> I think Mustafa is reminding you that etiquette
> trumps any one person or a groups hype, and if one
> can stand on their principles enough to take their
> creative vision to the next level, so what if the
> are mid grade. Opportunities are that, and you
> just have to look at them as that. So what if you
> fall on your face, just get back up, and press on
> like the rally mantra states. Talking shit only
> makes you appear as soiled as your words, unless
> you are fertilizing progression.

if you want to call it talking shit, fine, but also realize that within that is a large dose of reality which is what this thread is based upon. one person's trash is another's treasure and each person will take it differently.

> MArk, I never met you in CO, and you guys never
> even really introduced yourselves when I was in
> your presence. Were you jealous that I had a
> sponsor who paid for me( a virtual nobody from
> hicksville, nc) to come out and just gather
> footage for myself, not even the brand that was
> supporting the trip? If so, bad form sir. We
> here in the south still have posture and I
> consider myself a post modern southern gentleman
> with a punk rock exterior. Blame it on my
> enviroment through the years.

actually.... i was on the last stage at cog standing with erik and mike in the rain and asked as to where you were which happened to be farther down the stage. why didn't you seek me out and introduce yourself instead? i generally don't go up to people and start talking unless i'm hammered, and i was straight sober at parc expose this year. who cares anyways?

i'm not jealous and i simply don't care how you got out here. to insunuate so is just bad form for you, especially with all the southern gentleman rhetoric. i don't care where you are from and what you look like. you can be euro-trash gay, death metal rocker, classical snob, yuppie suburbanite, whatever. again, i don't care

> For a group of folks that have so many resources,
> you guys in CO act like a bunch of spoiled brats
> that never can get enough. Be thankful, and pass
> on the gratitude. It gets you much further, even
> if it doesn't bring you the financial reward.

one could argue that you should never be satisfied and that complacency leads to stagnation.

as for spoiled brats (love the southern gentleman there) other than rally colorado the nearest rally is some 800 miles away. other than that we have managed and been lucky enough to be invited to run in the chca and though dilligence have a wonderful test facility in core. we constantly pass on our gratitude by trying to get new people involved and support the sport as much as we can.

what i don't like is the fact that you can't ever say anything without making sure it's politically correct and doesn't offend anyone. i tone down what i actually think to what i actually post and still people get all up in arms about it.

> BTW, Mustafa at the next event where I see you and
> Burak, please coach me out of my shell, as I was
> star struck by you sir at Sandblast, and was a bit
> busy with my daughter. My close friend Oscar
> speaks highly of both of you. JVL, thanks for
> offering up your resources here for me to lay this
> out as well.
>
> May all of you on anarchy bask in its freedom.
>
> -Jonathan
>
> I roll so deep in the grass that I touch roots...
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Apr 1, 2008 by
> rallyboy.

at least this thread won't get locked like that one in colorado.

---

-Mark
www.nocoastmotorsports.net

Mark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you look like. you can be euro-trash gay, death
> metal rocker, classical snob, yuppie suburbanite,
> whatever. again, i don't care

I think I fit into at least two of those categories.

We are spoiled brats and we're not the most outgoing people in the world, unless there is beer involved. Ever heard of an introvert? My shrink tells me that this is what I am. And it makes sense, because I don't make small talk, I'm uncomfortable talking about things that are pointless and don't do it, and I think was faster than I am able to talk. That's why I type alot and prefer email correspondence. It's easier for me. But it's also one of those things that will only get worse with age and I've resolved to use the phone more and talk to people and become a little less of a introvert and maybe be a little more talkative.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > you look like. you can be euro-trash gay,
> death
> > metal rocker, classical snob, yuppie
> suburbanite,
> > whatever. again, i don't care
>
> I think I fit into at least two of those
> categories.
>

>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


Death metal Yuppie Suburbanite classical rocker?

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

After some serious introspection and a talk with my best friend outside of my wife that is, I realized much gets lost in translation from me to others, and accept my sincerest apology for seemingly judging you, and doing it incorrectly. AS far as me not wanting to offend anyone and choosing my words correctly...well, I am a father to three lovely daughters for whom I'm trying to set a good example for, and I genuinely care for others. I really could care less whether you like or dislike me, but would prefer the kinship over enemy status anyday. JVL, your reply was stellar, and I had to have my wife look at it, as you sir are a great wordsmith. I'm not as tight laced as one might think from my postings sometimes, really I'm very laid back on a one to one basis to my friends which are very few due to my own introversion. The web allows me to open up such as with Grant. I doubt I'll spend much time on here due to the enviroment, but dig your style JVL. email me your ph:number, as Oscar(turoc) has said countless times how he thinks we would get along quite well. Maybe one day I'll get to meet you in person.

-Jonathan

---

I roll so deep in the grass that I touch roots...
http://www.rallyboy.com