The cost of stage notes.

According to Arne Johansson - the owner of Jemba (Swedish company).
"The fee is SEK 2000 per month, and it includes the use of the following property of Jemba:
- Software needed
- Sensorbox
- Remote keyboard
- GPS unit
- Education
- Set-up according to your ideas
- Support
- Upgrades
All of which has to be returned/deleted after the lease period."

2000 SEK is roughly equal to $315 US Dollars (XE.com)
That's $315 a month or $3780 a year.

Right now there is only one company in the US that is allowed to lease this system from Jemba. It has been reported to me that the cost of creating notes for a rally to the organizer is anywhere from $5000 - $7000 (per rally).

I think as informed consumers we should probably start shopping around - Don't you?

Not so fast RA members... Your rulebook states: " - all Stage Notes for a complete competition season shall be produced by a single vendor retained by Rally America" - So you won't be using non-Jemba notes for a Rally America event anytime soon, and it's unclear if another company did show up with the Jemba system it would be allowed to make notes for RA events. You may want to ask them why. Exclusivity costs money.

So, If you could find another comparable system, have other companies lease the Jemba system and offer it at a more competitive price, or If one were to come up with an intelligent and well designed open source 'notes making system' based on 'off the shelf' hardware - you could save tens of thousands of dollars in event costs to organizers and competitors? Maybe we should look into that...

- Kris

Welcome to capitalism Kris. You want quality notes, you pay a specialist.
$150 per event for notes is not that big of a deal to me. Figure someone has to go drive the stages at least twice, which takes at least two days, plus travel, plus equipment, plus equipment, plus vehicles, plus refinement, plus printing.

I'm more than happy to support P-sport and Pete and his family and kids forever.(does he have kids? If so I respect him more for spending so much time away from his family supporting our sport and making the best notes he can)

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
> $150 per event for notes is not that big of a deal
> to me.

But it's not $150...
It's costing the rally $7000.
Of which your entry fee pays (if you buy notes or not).
Then the rally can't get 40 entrants to defray the cost.
So they drop stage notes and recce, and 30% of the entries fall away.

Leaving your 12 competitor rally broke and not likely to run next season.
Think beyond the last event...

- Kris

Nobody in N America is making a living creating Jemba notes. There is more that goes into creating Jemba notes than you'll ever know. Jemba is absolute technically wizardry no one here can recreate, EVER. No sanctioning body is going to choose a new group for such a liability sensitive issue as stage notes. Costs are costs.

Call Arne. Fly him here. Pay him a couple weeks to train you and your team. Build a couple reccecars with rally suspension and $1000+ Coralbas needed to communicate w/ Jemba and maintain them to drive to the far corners of the whole country. Pay for tires. Pay the gas. Pay the airfare. Its a big fricken country. Pay the hotel rooms. Stay up all night for several days editing notes per each rally. Pay the printer. Get stuck not getting paid when event is cancelled. Pay the liability insurance and attorney fees to create a waiver. Put yourself at risk of lawsuits. Plan your life around having to be at every rally. Go right ahead, I triple dog dare you and bet you don't get by step 1.

I'll stick w/ paying the reasonable going rate. Can't afford it? Don't buy them

Find another gripe.

CommanderSalamander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Build a couple reccecars
> with rally suspension and $1000+ Coralbas needed
> to communicate w/ Jemba and maintain them to drive
> to the far corners of the whole country.

That's an interesting point you make, but why would someone need what is essentially a rally car to drive the roads at a normal speed (as per the Jemba site)? I presume Jemba would say the person needs to drive the roads at "race speed," if that were the case.

Furthermore, these notes are generated prior to the event, meaning the person making the notes with the Jemba system is going to be driving on open roads where there is always the threat of oncoming traffic. So it's only logical to assume that whomever does this flies out to location with a laptop and a sensor box which he then hooks up in his rental car or truck, then drives at a safe and reasonable pace down the roads in order to datalog them. Given the inertia-basis of this system, were a person driving a semi-prepared vehicle down the road and face traffic, his course correction and deceleration would be read by the accelerometers in the sensor box, resulting in inconsistencies in the notes. Legality of racing on a public roadway aside, it only makes sense that the vehicle used to do the logging of the roads be driving at a safe and slow speed during this operation.

Regardless, it all smacks of anti-trust to me. We've got one vendor providing a service and rules dictating that there will be no competition in the market. This magical wizardry of the electronics world is a stone's throw from a PDA-based datalogger for the car. It's not rocket science. I have to agree that I don't think it should be priced as such.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to capitalism Kris. You want quality
> notes, you pay a specialist.
> $150 per event for notes is not that big of a deal
> to me. Figure someone has to go drive the stages
> at least twice, which takes at least two days,
> plus travel, plus equipment, plus equipment, plus
> vehicles, plus refinement, plus printing.

Oh yeah 2 days, well it is just a thing sitting in the passenger seat.
No good reason somebody LOCALLY AT THE FUCKING ORGANIZING END couldn't somehow manage to hook up a power feed, and somehow crawl down the roads twice.
>
> I'm more than happy to support P-sport and Pete
> and his family and kids forever.(does he have
> kids? If so I respect him more for spending so
> much time away from his family supporting our
> sport and making the best notes he can)
>

His choice and I say its a scam and a half. The costs are outrageous and its bullshit to say that's "what it costs.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

CommanderSalamander Wrote:

Blah blah blah.
Full disclose dicates that Shindle should disclose he's been "subcontracted" to do the Notes before and has posted similar fatuous, taunting horseshit before.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nobody in N America is making a living creating
> Jemba notes. There is more that goes into creating
> Jemba notes than you'll ever know. Jemba is
> absolute technically wizardry no one here can
> recreate, EVER. No sanctioning body is going to
> choose a new group for such a liability sensitive
> issue as stage notes. Costs are costs.
>
> Call Arne. Fly him here. Pay him a couple weeks to
> train you and your team. Build a couple reccecars
> with rally suspension and $1000+ Coralbas needed
> to communicate w/ Jemba and maintain them to drive
> to the far corners of the whole country. Pay for
> tires. Pay the gas. Pay the airfare. Its a big
> fricken country. Pay the hotel rooms. Stay up all
> night for several days editing notes per each
> rally. Pay the printer. Get stuck not getting paid
> when event is cancelled. Pay the liability
> insurance and attorney fees to create a waiver.
> Put yourself at risk of lawsuits. Plan your life
> around having to be at every rally. Go right
> ahead, I triple dog dare you and bet you don't get
> by step 1.

Last time it was a rental car, you fucking stories are getting grander, Shindle.
>
> I'll stick w/ paying the reasonable going rate.
> Can't afford it? Don't buy them

What are your costs for sitting in the other seat?
FOREVER.
>
> Find another gripe.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Kris, you are forgetting the biggest cost in any endeaver. Labor and expenses...which could easily double or triple the total cost of creating Jemba stage notes.


With that said there should be an overall savings if you had a crew based on the east and west coast to cut down on travel costs.

---

Matt Smith

Racing in glorious black and red

My daily life is a Saab story (sold!)

DR1665 Wrote:

Yes, sometimes the car is rented. When it is rented, it takes longer. Have to intall system into car (speed sensor, couple odos, wire to reverse lights,...) by thoughly washed to return to rental company as stage roads aren't clean, and get to rental company, return to rental company who aren't open 24/7.

Driving a car with skidplate, rallytires and suspension is better. Less changing tires, smoother ride, less broken stuff (typically).

Sometimes the roads are gated (SandBlast, Wild West) and speed doesn't matter. Carrying some speed after the initial pass to measure is good to determine racelines, offcambers, bumps and dips become more prevelant. Most passes are slow looking for don't cuts and cautions and having to write and edit and stop a billion times discussing road features and possible instructions. Last couple passes editing quicker. No where near racespeed though.

Try driving a rental to make notes at the Ranch stage at SnoDrift. You'll spend loads of time digging the car out. Recce car on studded tires, you spend time making notes and getting job done.

Acellerometers communicate w/ odo so know how fast car is traveling and adjust for it. Know when car is in reverse too. Accellerometers are used only in initial pass. Speeds are safe but don't lose time tip-toeing through ruf, washouts, bumps, and some back-asswards shortcuts taken.

Think again if you think duplicating Jemba is easy.

Quite you bitching and start a company and offer it for less.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quite you bitching and start a company and offer
> it for less.

Yes. I could make a plug-and-play system which needs only be plugged into a cigarette lighter and that could be shared by a number of events for the cost of shipping alone, but why bother? Competition ist verboten.

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

DR1665 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes. I could make a plug-and-play system which
> needs only be plugged into a cigarette lighter and
> that could be shared by a number of events for the
> cost of shipping alone, but why bother?
> Competition ist verboten.

1. The RA organizer could always request a sanction exemption to use your notes.

2. There are at least three other sanctioning bodies in North America that use notes and might use your system.

All:

Having observed the P-Sport process, and paid for the generation of stage notes for 2 Rally WV events; I can say:

- The thought of self generating notes for a series has crossed my mind. Heck, even building an inertial system similar to Jemba has been researched by us; an appropriate sensor with serial interface is available for about $600. (I spent 15 years as an electronics desgin engineer, BTW.) Jemba can be bought/leased by a group indeed.
- As for costs, once you set up a person or persons to do this, I expect you will run into costs that are not quite as substantial as P-Sport. However, if one group does this, you will still have the same costs for airfare, motels, rentals. The only way you can realy save $$ is on the 'pay' that goes to P-Sport personnel; the work would have to be volunteer, or mostly so.
- The alternative for minimal cast per event. is to develop a person associated with each event that can do this. This only eliminates airfare, as motel and other costs remain the same. Also, caring for consitent, calibrated operation of equipmment as it changes hands and gets shipped about from group to group is quite a serious problem IMO, as is scheduling the equipmetn so that it works for each event schedule.
- The main problem that this approach potentially runs into is the consistency and accuracy of the notes. Dave properly lays out some of the logistical and other technical issues of note genration with Jemba. What I do not see described is the fact that LOT of the intellignce that goes into CONSISTENT AND RELIABLE stage notes generation HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MACHINERY. It has to do with frequent HUMAN filtering of the data, noting things like 'off camber', 'kick at crest', etc.; all caution notes are human generated, as far as I know.
- As an organizer, if I do not provide notes for the $ fee that are reliable, then I am doing a disservice to the competitors. I may also be putting them in danger, or at least putting their substantial car investements at risk, by using notes that are not as good as they could be. I hate to see a competitor's car damaged; usually it's their fault, but I would feel very bad to have stage notes or a routebook that was poor, and caused someone a wreck.
- I also feel it is important to provide good stage notes so that I can show that liability is minimized. P-Sport DOES take on some degree of liability.
- In putting on an event, the addtion of stage notes as a task is another very significant time task to do. The rally organization has to be mature and staffed well enough to handle this. At Rally WV, we have been more focused on event growth, and will focus on adding RallyMoto in '08. I don't have the staff or time to devote to stage notes of hig quality for this year for certain. Having P-Sport come out and do it is an excellent way to handle it for now and for the foreseeable future.
- Rally NY is generating their own notes; I think I understand the reason (I assume it is cost driven) and can relate to that very strongly. There have been some who have protested as to quality; I have not seen them so cannot directly judge; but if you do your own notes, be prepared to have some competitors not come, as they will not have faith in the completeness and quality.
- If you pursue this route, IMO, you would have to either: get a reasonably sized group to commit firmly to this; or make the initial investment in Jemba, learn how to use it, prove that your notes are of comparable quality to P-Sport, and then would gather support to recoup costs. The latter is more likely.

Despite all the negatives, it is a reasonable premise to try to lower event costs (na dthus entry fees or stage notes fees) with a shared system. It is a big task to bite off, and has to be handled as a large, joint project, IMO, with a development time of at least 1 year. If nothing else, it good to air out this idea.

Regards,
Mark B.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quite you bitching and start a company and offer
> it for less.


What Grant said. I love a good conspiracy theory more than most, but I'm not seeing it here. Five large is a good bit of money, but when you have to plan and execute travel plans, prep either a recce car or a rental with a half day of equipment setup, a few days of motels and meals, gas, insurance (car and business liability), I assume a two person crew and a fair wage for that, the third of the profits the IRS is going to want, I can understand that cost.

You want a better product, figure out how to make it.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

The bullshit part is the percieved "need" for the "Human filtering". Just much gaddam handholding to the modern slow-poke drivers need in their cars with suspension 2 x as good as 20 years ago.
"Don't cut" FUCK! Doesn't the limpwristed modern driver have EYES?
The point is Is it really a necessity to tell the driver every tiny trifling NUANCE???

Just knowing the severity of the curves (and how long it is after) is a major HUGE advantage.

Pansy boys will always be pansy boys IF THEY DON'T DEVELOP THEIR PERCEPTION, and that won't happen when they're using all the crutches at the slow speed we all are.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.