I dont remember mentioning anything about my education anywhere but yes i have attended college more than 5 years and was not to avoid any drafts...

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

or was that another dinosaur joke?

---

rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

turoc Wrote:
> Monopolies are not too good particularly in small
> industries.

To have uniform notes, there has to be the one supplier. While its computer generated there is still a lot of human input involved.

Jemba is no plug-in-play system and can't be learned in a week. A decent codriver savy in computers, maybe a month sitting with Arne. Why would he invest that time when he still assists PSport? There are at least 3 different programs in the process and file conversions between them. The initial measuring software combines the input from the 3 diminsional accellerometer, data from the Coralba CGiant, the keypad for human input and the reverse light. Not just anyone can write a program to intergrate all that data correctly into codriver lingo. For stages with segments repeated thru-out the rally, all segments must be properly piece-mealed together so that the instructons remains identicial each time it is presented. For a rally like SandBlast or Rocky Mtn, its a big jigsaw puzzle. The editing software is probably the most advanced with many safeguards in the program (i.e. can't insert an instruction or sum of instructons with distance greater than the known distance between two landmarks). Painstaking slow editing notes and most of time is all-nighter editing to get back on stages the following day. The printing software is DOS which tells you how long its been around. All the time being developed. Even excellent human prepared stagenotes like Mark Williams writes for TallPines can't compare because Jemba is listing the distance from start and to finish per each line of instruction. Important to know when making hasty decisions such as to stop to change a flat or ride it out to the finish. What you're geting took many years to develop. While its offered to rent at that price, expect to pay more in associated costs.

Don't think it takes a day or 2 passes. Arne I did notes on roads just hit by a huricane. A week practically 24/7 preparing notes. Its the unexpected stuff that causes th delays (incomplete routebook, undefined start and finish boards, gated roads, finding people w/ key for gated road,...) Never a day.

When you have the most talented people writing your notes avaialable (Mark Williams just got back from preparing the Jemba notes for rally Team Oneil, anyone here say they know more about notes than Mark?), why would you want to go try to underbid them? Who would you trust your life w/ that is is flat over the top gear crest ahead? Some NFG who will do it for less? How long will NFG stick to it? Those little rally towns sure are boring when a rally isn't there when you are living out of a hotel room. Driving half across the country every other week sucks too.

Think before you post 'hey, we're being ripped off' about how lucky we actually are. That and saying it can be done cheaper by people who claim to have done a little homework is what pisses me off. You want to enter includes them in entry and you can't pay, there are other rallies. I'd choose good stagenotes over one new rallytire considering well prepared stagenotes can save your entire car and life.

Turoc, one of your two recommended techincal sources attends rallies as organizer, tech inspector and competitor. The other, only parts you pay for and witty advice.

Armor, yep I'll be at PerceNeige and will double caution the Baja tanktrap ditches you dig for me and triple caution the snipers. Did you ever run on Jemba notes?

Edit: Richard, no offense but you're smarter than I gave you credit for previously.







Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 12:41AM by CommanderSalamander.

CommanderSalamander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> initial measuring software combines the input from
> the 3 diminsional accellerometer, data from the

A 3 axis accellerometer is not mystery science - They are common tech and been around for a while. I have one on my desk right now - very easy to interface. They are $35 and really it comes down to the software. Well designed and tested software can be done by more then one person.

> The printing software is DOS which tells you how
> long its been around. All the time being
> developed. Even excellent human prepared

So? I have a DOS compiler.
I wrote an exe that runs in dos about 6 months ago...

> Some NFG who will do it for less? How long will
> NFG stick to it? Those little rally towns sure are

No dude... I don't want some fucking new guy. I want NASA Rally Sport to do it. I want the CRS to do it. I want organizers to do it.

> Think before you post 'hey, we're being ripped
> off' about how lucky we actually are. That and

I said no such thing.
People have a right to know that it's costing this much. If it takes that much money to do it right and it can be justified - you're in the clear.

If you think you can do it for cheaper - and better - as Grant said - "Welcome to capitalism" - Kris

Dave,

I usually stay out of flame wars, but I'd like to comment on a couple of the technical issues you've brought up.

Grabbing data from external devices on a computer is not a hard task. It's quite easy, in fact.

Accelerometer? No problem I have one here that I've been using to feed data to some APRS software I've been writing. USB, 3-axes, 3g's each axis.

Input from an odo? No problem. I don't know about Coralbas, but Terrortrips and Brantzes just use a simple pulse counting system to give distance. MPH is calculated by number of pulses in a given time segment. That's pretty easy too. You'd probably need a small circuit to drop them from 12v to 5v to feed to a computer's serial port, but that's mostly just a resistor and a zener.

Input from a GPS? No problem. Got that here...using it in my APRS program.

Display, printing, etc? Not hard. Been doing that kind of thing for years.

It's also not hard to write a "rules" stack where you can add in extra data manipulation rules as you think of them. In fact, you could probably do with with a scripting language like tcl or lua or something so that end-user could add their own rules. I dunno. I'd have to think about that. It's not hard from a technical standpoint though - I'm just not sure it'd be a very good idea from a safety standpoint. At any rate, the first ruleset I can think of would probably be pretty terrible, but they could be refined over time.

I'm not going to get into the side of the argument covering the logistics of prepping a car and going to events and staying up all night to perfect the output before rerunning the next day and so on, but please stop throwing up roadblocks from a technical standpoint. Quite frankly, your initial statement "Jemba is absolute technically wizardry no one here can recreate, EVER" made me laugh out loud because I have most of the bits needed to do it laying around here.


-michel hoche-mong
computer geek

---

Self-righteous douche canoe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 03:10AM by hoche.

CommanderSalamander Wrote:
----------------------------------------------------
>
> Armor, yep I'll be at PerceNeige and will double
> caution the Baja tanktrap ditches you dig for me
> and triple caution the snipers. Did you ever run
> on Jemba notes?
>

Good spend alot of time doing that and don't talk so much.

I ran on them and thought they were terrible. My co driver thought they were terrible. Any events I have intrest in now have 2 pass recce. We should be servicing right next door, why don't you not be a dick.


P.S. When you edit it the seventh time could ya spell my name right, mangia cake?




>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Edited 6 times. Last edit at Jan 16, 2008 by
> CommanderSalamander.

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Gone fishing

webkris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The printing software is DOS which tells you
> how
> > long its been around. All the time being
> > developed. Even excellent human prepared
>
> So? I have a DOS compiler.
> I wrote an exe that runs in dos about 6 months
> ago...

I kind of laughed at the original statement. I worked for 6 months back in 98 or so to update a software package (aka completely rewrite) from Dos to Windows based. Now all the programs I create run in Windows.

Anyone seen this?
http://www.bobstrackbuilder.net/

That'd be some advanced recce. We're going to do the Rally Colorado stages sometime this spring. That'd be a cool pre-event recce option.

---

Grant Hughes

webkris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A 3 axis accellerometer is not mystery science -
> They are common tech and been around for a while.
> I have one on my desk right now - very easy to
> interface. They are $35 and really it comes down
> to the software. Well designed and tested software
> can be done by more then one person.

I agree. An interface w/ accellerometer is the easy part. Knowing how to interface w/ the odo is th complicated part. Only odo I know w/ communications is the Coralba. If you didn't know Arne is the sole supplier of Coralbas and PSport is the distributor for N America. And there aren't many CGiants made w/ communications. Getting one and then being able to communicate w/ it with your software is what I think will be difficult.You going to pay these more than one software engineers and codriver geeks?

> No dude... I don't want some fucking new guy. I
> want NASA Rally Sport to do it. I want the CRS to
> do it. I want organizers to do it.

I've done events where organizers have written and sold their own stagenotes. It was apparent that they dedicated more time on the notes and less on the event. And not all organizers know how to write notes in the first place. Just like Bowers has posted, by NASA hiring someone (pros) it allows them some blanket from lawsuits. What do you think the sanctioning bodies insurance contracts say?

In a sport hanging on the fringe of existing in NAmerica, which dramically took a beating following a couple unfortunate accidents resulting in increased entry fees through jacked insurance which dominoed to less entries making less people to share the burdon of cost; you really want to low-bid what compititors are willing to pay the pros where one misplaced double caution could spell disaster?

>
> No dude... I don't want some ****** new guy. I
> want NASA Rally Sport to do it. I want the CRS to
> do it. I want organizers to do it.
>
Hey Kris,

If you read my prior post in this thread, you'll know I am open to new ideas in this area. I say that so you won't think I am in attack mode. We HAVE researched doing this on our own (us being Rally WV or a consortium of events, which I never seriously approached).

Before getting into the details of this post, let me note that as an organizer, you CAN do some things to lower the amount of work that the P-Sport team has to so, and thus keep costs lower. 3 things you can do:
- We have folowed the 'Anders' standard of preparation for the notes team; which consists of creating a detailed document with a lot of info for the notes teams about start and finish locations. This eliminates that source of time wasting problems, and I think we get better pricing because they know we do this; we have gotten good feedback about this document.
- We work well ahead to make the routebook 100% complete prior to the notes team arrival.
- We plan to be in the are when the notes team is doing their work; we can quickly answer questions, and even meet for dinner during the process to go over progess, questions, snags, etc. We have agreed on changes to a finish location 'on the fly' in this manner (for safety).

A coupla points on the ideas to make notes:

- Please don't get the idea that having organizers 'do it' is a ready solution. Do you realize that we spent almost 2000 volunteer hours just getting ready for Rally WV in '07? I think we are getting farily efficient in our organizing process, and we do not have many bells and whistles for that event; so I can see this volunteer time being much, much higher for fancier events. Our work load was spread mostly between 2 folks, with notable to significant contributions from about 10 others. So now you want 'the organizers ' (my son and I primarily) to also shoulder this time and work burden? Sorry....that's just over the top, guy.
- Yes, one can assign this to a team or a group associated with a rally or group of rallies. A group of rallies banding together in one region would be ideal. But guy, you HAVE to understand that providing a completely detailed set of notes that is ACCURATE AND CONSISTENT FROM EVENT TO EVENT AND BETWEEN EVENTS IN DIFFERENT SERIES IS THE GOLD STANDARD THAT YOU HAVE TO MEET TO BE ACCEPTED BY ORGANIZERS AND COMPETITORS ALIKE. The market standard has been set by Jemba. Meeting that standard in reality, and then convincing everyone that you really are at that standard level, is the REAL task at hand, not the technical issues.
- AND then you have to get this same group to come back year after year, as volunteers, to do this and produce the same reliable notes. From doing routebooks, there is NO WAY I would ever trust this to any new person, they would have to be a part of the team and have developed and bought into the same standards to maintain consistency from year to year and event to event.
- This may be minor but I have to reject the $35, and other small, aceelerometers presented here; I've looked at their accuracy specs (when looking to design exactly this type of system to produce notes myself), and other specs like offset parameters, and find them very unsutiable in that area. Expect to pay many hundreds of $$ for a suitable unit for this task.

Let me offer what I feel is a constructive challenge on this topic, Kris. Put together a solid proposal of equipment (it can just be Jemba) and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, how you plan to get the group (doing this job) trained (and pay the costs to be trained by Arne if that is needed), to develop the technique and quality, and to get, train, and maintain a volunteer staff do this for a regional series. Also, develop some realistic costs that will be charged to events for room and travel and fuel and car costs. Approach some organizers and/or region with your proposal; don't bother wasting time proposing this on the rally forums as that will get you absolutely nowhere in really achieving this end.

I suggest the above as it
- would be the exact things I would do if I went back and revised my proposals for this work; i.e., I am not asking you to do anything I would not do myself;
- and is realistically what needs to happen for this idea to truly gain any traction; this has been 'talked out' over the forums.

Some suggestions:
- I would develop out of wide open public scrutiny; like any engineering task, you need to be left alone to work out problems as they crop up until the product and quality are satisfactory.
- After developing the hardware, software, and a reasonably complete process and practicing it, go out and force yourself to do several blind tests; make your own notes on a lot of stages for which existing stage notes have been made, and honestly compare results. Again, there is an existing 'gold standard' out there that you really do have to meet.
- Once you can develop notes as good as Jemba (which are not perfect, but are very damned good), then you are ready, IMO. I would force myself to be at that level before attempting notes for my event.

Regards,
Mark B.
PS: Edits for dyslexic spelling



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 09:11AM by starion887.

CommanderSalamander Wrote:
> What do
> you think the sanctioning bodies insurance
> contracts say?

I have not read these contracts but I am willing to believe it says little or nothing about routebooks or stage notes. But I really could be wrong on that point.

>
> In a sport hanging on the fringe of existing in
> NAmerica, which dramically took a beating
> following a couple unfortunate accidents resulting
> in increased entry fees through jacked insurance
> which dominoed to less entries making less people
> to share the burdon of cost; you really want to
> low-bid what compititors are willing to pay the
> pros where one misplaced double caution could
> spell disaster?
>
Hey Dave, I disagree on the severity of the situation. If things were that bad, new orgainziers (like us) would be scared off by the prior incidents. Of course, may be are working in ignorance of the reality of our peril; that would make a lot of sense, since all racers do that to greater or lesser degree!

Respectfully,
Mark B.

turoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> or was that another dinosaur joke?

Probably just being an old fart.

---

RichardM

I've been reading these posts about the Jemba system and the associated costs and as much as I don't really care, the first thing that occurs to me (as a geodetic surveyor who uses similar technology - primarily in support of transportation engineering i.e. roads) is how ass-backwards it is to (sounds like almost manually) derive horizontal and vertical curvature from IMU measurements coupled with - well, a measuring wheel (coralba).

It would be far more straight forward, more accurate and far less co-driver dependent to just map the frikking stage road. With an accurate trajectory of the road - both horizontal and vertical, there is already off-the-shelf software that'll automatically calculate what you've measured into 1) a horizontal alignment and 2) a profile. From these two things you could look at each curve and determine its grade (from the radius) and its length - in a way that required no interpretation. It's all there.

The other thing is that inertial measurement can get quite a bit more varied and capable than the Wii or a '3 axis accelerometer' sitting on your desk. What is your IMU's data rate 1Hz? 100Hz, 200? (= how fast you can drive the stage road). What is its drift (bias) 20 degrees per hour? 0.2 degrees per hour? What sort of gyros? ring laser? FOTS? Accelerometers: quartz/silicon/servo? Maximum time between fixes? What is needed to derive grade of curvature for rally notes? You'd want to figure those things out before you interface to your DOS routine or whatever (and DOS?!?)

Trust North Americans to 1)invent a system capable of guiding bombs into toilets from 26,000ft and then 2) turn to Scandanavian rally guys to use a mere wisp of that capability to give them their rally notes.

Robin

NoCoast Wrote:
> Anyone seen this?
>
> (Bob's Track Builder)
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

A cool piece of software. I used it to create a model of the ice racing track in Minden, ON.



Download (don't worry it's safe/what could possibly go wrong):
[link]http://www.everestgeodetics.com/outgoing/Minden2.zip[/link]

It's for Richard Burns Rally - follow directions in the readme file. Still haven't figured out how to generate the spoken notes...

I'm gonna try mapping some of the stages during recce at Perce Neige and throw them in.

Robin

>
> Edit: Richard, no offense but you're smarter than
> I gave you credit for previously.
>

No I'm not. I'm still a driver and organizer. If I was smart, I wouldn't do this.

---

RichardM

Robin Fleguel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You'd want to figure those things
> out before you interface to your DOS routine or
> whatever (and DOS?!?)

I'm going to write it in COBOL!
My point simply was - just because Jemba uses a dos program doesn't mean it was written in 1989.

Oooh - how about a batch file.
ECHO "L3 > 2"

You bring up some good points if one were to attempt it. Now I have an excuse to buy RBRally.

- Kris




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2008 12:05PM by webkris.