I was going to post this in the "Rally is dying" thread, but though it might work better as a separate thread.

Why aren't there more dirt road rallies (TSD like) in the US? Wouldn't this be a better solution to getting a little bit of rally fun for cheap than running illegal rallies? Back to the roots of the sport.

I understand that for example in the UK they have a blast with dirt "road rallies", and learn a ton about performance rallying in the process.

How hard would it be to organize one? Is there some kind of legal impediment to doing it in the US?

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http://www.max-attack.com

I think TSD overall is falling on hard times.

Who can afford to just drive around for hours on end for no good reason anymore? I know they're fun but....

I suppose fuel prices and the economy would put a damper on TSD,

but did I miss the bulletin saying that performance rallyists now actually have a good reason to drive around for hours on end?

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http://www.max-attack.com

There are a few semi-gravel TSDs in Ohio. Some are fun, some are fun only if you're the lead car, not Tail-End Get Shot At By Yokels Charlie.

And then there's things like CAST 45 that may as well be CAST 90

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

The most fun I've had at a sanctioned TSD was driving Gary Webb's winter events in Maine in the late 90s. One time he basically got us on some stage roads (or damn near it) with a wikked hahhd CAS, so it was total chaos trying to keep my XR4Ti with used Hakkas on the road. OK, I ended up needing a yank at one point and had to go maximum attack to make the next leg, but hey, it was a blast! I remember some of the normal TSD crowd whining about the roads and the speeds.

Gary had somebody out taking pictures of the cars and brought them to the finish. I still have pictures from those events on my refrigerator almost 10 years later. Good times.

A birdie once told me that some knucklehead put together a couple unsanctioned events out east a few years back that were entertaining, but I wouldn't know anything about that.

I've run Buffum's Vt. Winter Challenge three times now in the silly seat with Ted Mendham. It was fun but exhausting the first two times. Got lost pretty good the first time, but was able to salvage the evening, the second time went better. This year we ran in a Camry with crappy snows since the primary ride was in the shop. But the car wasn't the problem. The trapped section caught me out big time, blew that section. The second section had a piece of road that was plowed IN, not just unplowed. So we bagged that section. After spending way too much time debating running the third section, I handed in our time card and we went home. It just wasn't fun.

I once "worked" a Finger Lakes SCCA TSD, that looked like it could be fun, they're just a bit of a ride to get to, which is getting tougher to do as my family grows.

Most all the other TSDs I've run in the states seem to fall under the drive 23 mph in a 30 on paved roads, try not to fall asleep. Just not my thing.

Rallycross. I should go try again sometime, but it seemed like every time I brought my POS XR4 there, I would get crap about it either being too loud, or having bad struts, or no valid registration or something. And I once got in trouble for keeping my right foot planted well past the finish at one event, but that was my own doing.

Seemed like whenever the course starts getting interesting, the cones get moved to take all the fun out of it. But I haven't been to an event in four years, so I don't have any recent knowledge there. My philosphy on US rallycross is to bring a POS and beat it mercilessly and see what happens. If it goes over, oh well, it's a POS.

In either case (TSD or Rallycross), the SCCA does want you to be a member now, so the extra $10 for being a guest is now an extra $15 for a "weekend membership". Maybe I'm just bitter from SCCA dropping performance rally like a turd while keeping the putt-putt programs, but I don't really want to be a member.

For my money, I'd rather go drop $50 at Maine Indoor Karting or buy Sanborn some Guinness and go tear up his back road. Or go ice racing in Maine, but that turns into a multi-day adventure with no guarantee of ice most winters now.

There's a book for you.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

fiasco Wrote:
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> The most fun I've had at a sanctioned TSD was
> driving Gary Webb's winter events in Maine in the
> late 90s. One time he basically got us on some
> stage roads (or damn near it) with a wikked hahhd
> CAS, so it was total chaos trying to keep my XR4Ti
> with used Hakkas on the road. OK, I ended up
> needing a yank at one point and had to go maximum
> attack to make the next leg, but hey, it was a
> blast! I remember some of the normal TSD crowd
> whining about the roads and the speeds.
>
> Gary had somebody out taking pictures of the cars
> and brought them to the finish. I still have
> pictures from those events on my refrigerator
> almost 10 years later. Good times.


Gary's events were a blast. The last time I ran one, we finished an hour and a half early and Gary thought that was so funny, he sent us out to play on some other "special" roads. Tons of fun to be sure.

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-Brian

As a previous TSD organizer, I'll add this: the financials of a TSD are horrible. You think stage rallies have trouble? Phew. I've never seen a proper TSD that wasn't running in the red when one considers organizer gas and event equipment. They are all subsidized by someone else (often an SCCA region).

But the biggest thing was that as a TSD organizer I didn't feel like my work got appreciated. Not that the participants didn't enjoy them, they did, but when you only have 8 teams show up, that's not ENOUGH appreciation. And super-hard to get volunteers for.

Too bad, cause I like a nice TSD.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

So it doesn't sound like it's impossible then? Plus it could possibly be easier to organize or find roads than a performance rally since I guess you wouldn't need to get special road permits etc?

Anders, do you think the perception of TSDs could be changed to draw more people in (competitors and workers)?

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http://www.max-attack.com

Anders Green Wrote:
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> As a previous TSD organizer, I'll add this: the
> financials of a TSD are horrible. You think stage
> rallies have trouble? Phew. I've never seen a
> proper TSD that wasn't running in the red when one
> considers organizer gas and event equipment. They
> are all subsidized by someone else (often an SCCA
> region).
>
> But the biggest thing was that as a TSD organizer
> I didn't feel like my work got appreciated. Not
> that the participants didn't enjoy them, they did,
> but when you only have 8 teams show up, that's not
> ENOUGH appreciation. And super-hard to get
> volunteers for.
>
> Too bad, cause I like a nice TSD.
>
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0


I was going to say it was due to a lack of organizers.

In Colorado we had an all dirt TSD about 4 years ago, it was a blast!

There haven't been any more though. The biggest reason isn't the lack of roads, or planned routes. It is a lack of time on behalf of the organizer of that previous event. His health is not fantastic, and his wife's is fairly bad. He lacks the time and energies to put forth the necessary effort to put on an event. He tried for a couple of years to get some people to step up and take over the events he had put together but that was a bad time for our local scene (everybody was splintering off into their own deals and there was a real lack of new blood filling those intermediate level voids).

A TSD rally very likely takes a very similar level of effort to organize versus a stage rally. The ancillary expenses are different but the effort, time, and things like gas, are all very similar.

Personally I think TSDs are very important to the overall long term health of rallying. They are one more step to help link RallyCross (cheap and not very intimidating) to Stage Rally (very expensive and can be very intimidating to start).

Rallying's long term health and vibrancy in the US (note, I didn't say survival), will rely upon reconnecting the lowest level entry point with the stage. The SCCA had an important element that potentially served it well. Rallying needs more people hanging out. It needs more people interested and engaged with more levels of participation that can better match their current situations.

It was very telling that at one event one competitor flat out stated that hanging out, swapping stories, and bullshitting with his fellow competitors was as much of a reason why he raced as anything else. Rallying needs to find more ways to embrace that element and to bring more people into it.

Each region needs rally crosses, TSDs, sprints/CoEff 1 rallies/Hill climbs, and full on stage rallies with healthy participation in all of them as well as lots of cross participation and pollination of disciplines.

It's funny that this topic comes up when the POR was held just this past weekend. It was actually it's 60th anniversary and included about 600 miles of some of the northern LP's greatest roads with 50 controls. Also included were lots of deer. One of which decided it would be a good idea to run into the side of my car. Other than that, my dad and I had a blast competing even though we couldn't use the Volvo...maybe next year. Personally, I think TSDs are a great way to get valuable seat time and they're a lot of fun, especially during heated conversations between the driver and co-driver.

I know here in Michigan there are about 5 TSDs per year (correct me if I'm wrong since I'm relatively new to the scene) most of which are sanctioned by the Detroit SCCA. While the sport is not as healthy as it once was in the good-ole days, it is surviving thanks to the dedication of the old veterans of the sport.

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Ian Topping
Flint, MI

http://www.thompsonracingfabrication.com/
http://www.teamilluminata.com./
http://www.autoeuropesales.com/

Up here in the UP we've got some good access to TSD's. And actually a TSD was the first auto event I ever did, the Keweenaw Winter Rally in 1999. The main series around here is the Arrowhead SCC Winter Rally Series.
http://www.arrowheadscc.org/wrs.htm
Which even included a 2 day event. Which I missed!
Occasionally there have been other TSD events around too.
I was actually out this weekend checking out a road for a tsd that I'm slowly trying to put together. Maybe next year? But about 8 miles of the road ended up being overgrown 4 wheeler trail. And even though my scirocco made it down the trail and back to civilization with no problems I dont know how well other people would enjoy that. But so far I've got about 120 miles of route, with 90 or so of it unpaved. And I want to start it at midnight and finish at breakfast.

I think, like for any other autos sports, where you are geographically has a lot to do with what events you have access to. So maybe being in Long Beach has some effect on how you see the status of TSDs?

Shenan Wrote:
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> So it doesn't sound like it's impossible then?
> Plus it could possibly be easier to organize or
> find roads than a performance rally since I guess
> you wouldn't need to get special road permits
> etc?

Special permits aren't required, correct.

> Anders, do you think the perception of TSDs could
> be changed to draw more people in (competitors and
> workers)?

Oh man, I don't know. You might have to change the perception AND the reality. But most of all you need someone that enjoys organizing them.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

We've been kicking around the idea of doing some sort of TSD in the mountains nearby straddling the VA/WV border. Climbs to almost 4000' lots of narrow twisty dirt roads, good locations along I-81 for a host hotel/HQ. Should be pretty easy to organize from a route perspective. Would have to have a system to track cars to insure no one got lost in woods at night; would be seriously cold at night in the fall.

The impetus would be to encourage entrants into basic stage rally (routebooks, timing, the fun of dirt roads in the dark, adventure and comeraderie, etc.).

Any interest from mid-Atlantic rally folks to do something like this? You don't have to be a stage rally perosn to be interested.

Regards,
Mark B.

I have always wondered why more stage rally people don't run TSD. You get lots of seat time. You still get to blast through corners but you have to hold CAST on the straights. It's not easy, there is quite a challenge. There are some great roads and scenery to visit. You don't tear up you car as bad. It is a great way to test and tune your stage car. You can also run your street car if you want. Most importantly you learn to rally with discipline. You will become much better drivers and navigators.

Back in the 90s when I was stage rallying I wouldn't give TSD a second thought. Now that I am all grown up I think that TSDs are fantastic. I have run five events in Washington and British Columbia. One of them was a sleeper but the others were really fun. Thunder Bird was all snow and FAST! No Alibi was in eastern Wa. Hot and dusty, with really nice roads. Crestline, last weekend in eastern BC, was realy well organized and the roads were the best ever. We had several sections that were CAST at 70+ kph. That may not sound fast but let me tell you trying to hold those averages was no joke.

At least in the Pacific Northwest TSD is alive and well. There are more two day events than I have time for. With just a few more cars per event they would all break even or actually make a bit of cash for the clubs.

Monsters Revenge and Night on Bald Mountain are single day events coming up in Washington. They are both gravel and should be really fun. Give them a try. You WILL have fun. No HANS needed.

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
--
> Monsters Revenge and Night on Bald Mountain are
> single day events coming up in Washington. They
> are both gravel and should be really fun. Give
> them a try. You WILL have fun. No HANS needed.
>
> Robert.

Dude, I's gonna whack your pee-pee if you don't make the 2 1/2 mile drive over here sometime.
Kevin Hawkinson just moved in down in South Park and Graham "Graminal" formerly of Lyndeborough Nude Hampster is in Sandpoint Idaho this morning and should be arriving here over the weekend to work with me for a while and then start at Sound Propeller where Kevin works, and all of us are interested in doing PNW gravel TSD.

Thus I hereby assign you the job of being Oafish-al Rally Anarchy Ambassador to Gravel TSD with the ambit of keeping us informed of upcoming gravel TSD events.
OK?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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