Mid engined cars(reprised)

Gents,

Happy New Year one and all. I've been out of touch for a while, again children and work leaving me little to no time for automotive joy. This weekend, I was reading some of the topics I've missed trying to catch up. This led to a question...

Not referencing any specific car, but there seems to be concern/disagreement/out right hostility(kidding) towards mid engined rally cars. If I'm remember some of the comments, they focused on the cars not being stable. Was my impression of the discourse incorrect? My confusion being that most of Group B was mid engined, the Stratos, 037, Delta S4 etc etc. These were all some impressive cars.

Next point, if a car was going to be only used for RallyX, do you still have the same concerns about mid engined platforms? As alwasy, looking forward to spirited discussion.

Thanks

Dan

I think the problem really is that there arent any proper mid engined cars. First thing that comes to mind is the MR2 or the X1/9. They are underpowered which could be cured but the interior/head room is a little too small and not much you could do about it.

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!

turbo charged 4ag mr2 with a custom widebody and suspension would be sick. I know a guy making REDICULOUS power with a turbo 4ag.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Safety issues aside, and I do understand that concern, I drove a Lancia Scorpion for several years.

Focusing strictly on the handling issue, I was always under the impression the mid engines cars handled best. At least on pavement anyway, weight applied to the rear wheels, etc etc. I'm a complete noob when it comes to gravel suspensions.

Hey Dan,

What do you have in mind? I spoke to Jason at Lou Fusz yesterday, & he helped me out with some pinouts to hook up my Terratrip. Are you coming down to the 100 Acre Wood?

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It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

Lee,

Hello, how are ya? What did finally begin to build up? I am going to 100ac for some spectating. you?

Mid engine rwd conversions have been done a number of times to vws. In a nutshell, put a front subframe out back, then you end up with something like this:

The competition worthyness/handling of such cars is completely unproven, but now you have me thinking...
Maybe something like this would be cheap fun for the euro style rallycross events RA is going to start sanctioning... (oh! I wonder if thats public knowledge yet )

> Maybe something like this would be cheap fun for
> the euro style rallycross events RA is going to
> start sanctioning... (oh! I wonder if thats public
> knowledge yet )

I thought that was SCCA "Circuit Rally"....I wonder how long it'll take for the intellectual property lawsuit to happen.

A Euro-style rallycross could be interesting, and maybe slightly less unaffordable. Time for a new thread there.

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Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

some body has to have the money to pony up for the real thing..
think french


http://www.steelwings.com/ViewContemporary.aspx?id=270

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

I think you misinterpreted what the concerns were. There's nothing wrong with mid-engine, per se, the real concern was for too short of a wheelbase. Take a look at most of the Group B mid-engine rally cars and you will find that the wheelbase was right around 100", the magic number. Not that you can't have a good handling car with a shorter wheelbase. There are plenty of examples of that. Ford Escort 1 & 2 come to mind.

Zagato78 Wrote:
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> Safety issues aside, and I do understand that
> concern, I drove a Lancia Scorpion for several
> years.


Years ago we built a Lancia Scorpion rally car. It worked quite well, even being underpowered to most of the top cars. With Sam Bryan driving it finished 2nd overall at the 1990 Rocky Mountain rally, beating out the Sprongl brothers in their Audi by 5 minutes (even caught them on the last, really muddy stage.) Mind you, I think that was the Sprongl's second season of rallying. That car could take some crazy yaw angles through a corner and still be completely stable and controllable. And the wheelbase was only 90.6 inches, so it goes against eveything I usually tell people, lol.


photos by Jim Culp

I think that is where some of my confusion stems from. I know of many mid engined cars that have been raced with great success. Again, being a complete noob to gravel racing, perhaps there was an additional factor.

Carl S Wrote:
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> Mid engine rwd conversions have been done a number
> of times to vws. In a nutshell, put a front
> subframe out back, then you end up with something
> like this:
>
> The competition worthyness/handling of such cars
> is completely unproven, but now you have me
> thinking...
> Maybe something like this would be cheap fun for
> the euro style rallycross events RA is going to
> start sanctioning... (oh! I wonder if thats public
> knowledge yet )


To me that is car porn!!!! Always wanted VW to make GTI in rwd, too much fun. either the `1.8t or the v6 would be stupid fun. My time with front wheel drive has been over for a couple of years now. Did it, enjoyed it, now I'm moving on!

I would love a Euro style Rallyx, would be much more attainable than the current stage rallys (i hope)

Zagato78 Wrote:
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> I think that is where some of my confusion stems
> from. I know of many mid engined cars that have
> been raced with great success. Again, being a
> complete noob to gravel racing, perhaps there was
> an additional factor.

Hey Dan, one thing to ALWAYS bear in mind when looking at the reuslts of anything at the highest levels and trying mine the car for ideas is that nearly everything at the WRC top had for30+ years adjustable parameters for caster, camber and toe, and maybe at both ends.
Also HUGE amount of time was spent testing and establishing set-ups.
(When I was offered job at Ford Motorsports at Boreham way back in 1989 they said due to my age and experience and languages that I would be "on the road for minimum 250 days per year" and i asked "Fawk me! There's only so many WRC events...whats the rest of the time?"
Their answer: Testing...Testing suspension suspension suspension, set ups, suspension suspension ECU suspension ......)

With a short short car regardless of the drive configuration, if you have adjustable links and stuff, you can, with enough time and resources and the READY AVAILABILITY of alternate dampers, springs roll bars etc etc etc, maybe get anything to work acceptably.

Most of us do not have adjustable links and arms and mountains of alternate springs dampers etc etc nor endless time to test verify and record set up.

There's the ol saying "Horsies for coursies" and I'd say if we drove extremely tight stuff like French or Italian tarmac or some British gravel or Irish tarmac, then a short car might be fine.

We don't.

As Andrew Pinker said in that other place in USA "Its all about power power power"

So if we always remember to do something for its advantages, what advantage do you believe the mid engine, production based car with short wheelbase offers?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

As always John, excellent perspective! The Euro rallies are tighter with all those fantastic curves(yep i'm jealous) The 037 was blistering on tarmac, not as effective on gravel. If memory serves, Safari was a difficult event for the Statos and 037, perhaps because of the high speed straights?

My curiousity is mainly academic. Too many years following the Lancia cars. I still have the impression that all rallies are like those in Europe. The limited spectating areas I've been too don't give you a real sense of what the rest of the stages are like.

Tossablilty was my impression of what was needed in a rally car. The ability to rotate the car, at will and keep it dancing through a series of corners. Mid engine cars, where the mass is located, seem on paper to offer that. Long wheelbases are more stable at speed in a straight line, totally agree. The trade off is that the longer wheelbases resist rotation, yes?






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2009 01:04PM by Zagato78.

Zagato78 Wrote:
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The trade off is that the
> longer wheelbases resist rotation, yes?

Umm, I think you need to go for a ride in my Opel Ascona (99.1" wheelbase) once I get it put back together. Better stability? Yes. Resist rotation? Never had that problem.