Mid engined cars(reprised)

Now I wouldn't call 100 inches a long wheelbase. My r32 is 101, and that car is anything but long.

Zagato78 Wrote:
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> > As always John, excellent perspective! The Euro
> rallies are tighter with all those fantastic
> curves(yep i'm jealous)

Most are. And that makes the high averages we see in like Finnish and Swedish events even more shocking. I used to drive my various cars and vans down roads which 20 years later when i was finally into rally, my friend who lived out there said "Oh they always use that road as a stage". So I go out on some roads i had driven a thousand times with different eyes, not just driving down the road to get to the moto-cross tack or the sand pit, but "what if i was going to really TRY and go-for-it!"
FAWKIN YIKES!!!!! FAWKIN NARROW!!!!!!!! Sudden kinks to avoid a hug rock or a BIG old tree, extremely poor sightlines due to closeness of trees and constant little small curves and kinks.
Seriously HOW THE FUCK DO THEY DO IT????

I was seriously shaken up, frightened even.




The 037 was blistering on
> tarmac, not as effective on gravel.

My memnory is 037 was fine on gravel

If memory
> serves, Safari was a difficult event for the
> Statos and 037, perhaps because of the high speed
> straights?

Yeah Stratos was drawn from clean sheet as a asphalt rally car for roads like in Piedmonte.
>
> My curiousity is mainly academic. Too many years
> following the Lancia cars. I still have the
> impression that all rallies are like those in
> Europe. The limited spectating areas I've been
> too don't give you a real sense of what the rest
> of the stages are like.
>
> Tossablilty was my impression of what was needed
> in a rally car.

Yeah but we want the car to do something when we provoke it.



The ability to rotate the car, at
> will

And that changes drastically depending on surface and grip and the radius of the turn.



and keep it dancing through a series of
> corners.


So rarely we ever see nice series of turns to try that dance-dance dance....(sigh)

Mid engine cars, where the mass is
> located, seem on paper to offer that. Long
> wheelbases are more stable at speed in a straight
> line, totally agree. The trade off is that the
> longer wheelbases resist rotation, yes?

Resist yes but so seldom are there really tight radius turns or junctions versus the amount of time spent more or less foot down doing little kink L and kink R is such that the cars stability is much more important than the flic flic on real "turns".

On North American roads, even a sled, a veritable intercity bus like a Volvo 740 (109" wheelbase) was proven to be nimble enough to be consistently the first car after all the buy-a-ride Blue Subarus just a few years ago before Carl succumed to the siren call of 4wd and got his Misterbitchy Evo.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jan 18, 2009 by
> Zagato78.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Zagato78 Wrote:
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> Now I wouldn't call 100 inches a long wheelbase.
> My r32 is 101, and that car is anything but long.

Relative to a 95.5" Opel Manta A or Ascona A chassi, it is.
And the feel is amazingly different, much better.
The running gear is all essentially the same, different sheetmetal, and that little bit makes a world of differnce.

When i was doing moto-cross seriously we'd lengthen the swing arms by one inch ot 1.25 on a beginning whellbase of about 58.5 to 59" and it was hugely different.
On higher speed European tracks i got the stability I wanted.
On faux US "Stupor-X" influenced tracks it was annoying.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Good info gents! And thank you, always fun to discuss and learn something new. that pic of the rear wheel GTI still has me thinking. 1.8t, lsd, APR stage 2 chip, would be too much fun!



D

> and keep it dancing through a series of
> > corners.
>
>
> So rarely we ever see nice series of turns to try
> that dance-dance dance....(sigh)


LOL, sry John, sounds like I hit a sentimental nerve. As a result of this thread I pulled out the old Autocourse/Autosprint books and magazines. Yah just gotta love those old cars.

Zagato78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good info gents! And thank you, always fun to
> discuss and learn something new. that pic of the
> rear wheel GTI still has me thinking. 1.8t, lsd,
> APR stage 2 chip, would be too much fun!
>
>
>
> D


Then you need to look at this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3277830&page=1
Caution, it's 59 pages and most of it is VW fanboy drooling.

Better yet, here's a distilled version someone put on their blog with only the OP's posts: http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/blogs/turn_10s_forza_motorsport_blog/archive/2008/12/04/2119198.aspx

Did you say Euro Style rally cross?

like as in combo sealed surface and dirt ????

With heats of 10 or so cars banging and crashing around?

With speeds high enough to get you out of 1st gear?

You mean racing for a checkered flag with competition wheel to wheel?

This is the kind of rallycross I've been praying would come to the US.

---

Michael LeCompte

I agree. That kind of RallyX could open up the sport here. Stage Rally may continue to struggle b/c of time and distance. I know for me a tow to the PacNW or New England just isn't feasible. But a local RallyX scene with an event every month, I'm in!!


That could really open up the option of some different cars too. Short track, no trees, perhaps then the MR2s, Porsche 914s etc could be used. Also have an unlimited open class for the homebrew specials, engine relocations. Gawd that would be fun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2009 05:25PM by Zagato78.

Wow, that is alot of work, but it looks stupid fun. I'm thinking a Mkiv body, 1.8t in the ass end. Fire wall the cockpit, who needs a rear window anyway. Stock body lines, stock wheel track. Woohoo!!!! Going to rest now....

Zagato78 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If memory
> serves, Safari was a difficult event for the
> Statos and 037, perhaps because of the high speed
> straights?
The stratos was before my time, but I remember hearing about the Lancia works teams in 85 and 86 prefering the 037 over the S4 becuase it was a more roubust platform. And because the AWD wouldnt be of much advantage and only causing more tire ware. Example, the RWD Toyotas won 5 or 6 safaris in a row,





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2009 10:24PM by Cosworth.

I have one of those french demons, I haven't had time to put it back together with the custom forged pistons and steel liners but it should scare the snot out of me(250hp in 2000lbs, you do the math) in good fashion. I never drove in long distant anger like my other rally cars but I've took it up a my gravel driveway at about little over 70 mph and I thought it was controllable. I mean very controllable, I was expecting it to be real twitchy, but it wasn't, hell I wasn't even loaded so it wouldn't skew my opinion. Don't get me wrong it is like driving a fighter plane on the street and if I went around a corner at the speed of my old EVO 8 the only thing that would be left is assholes and fiberglass for 300 meters. It is a think ahead car, I wish all of these top ralliers in the states could use them in their full glory. I know the law of natural selection would prevail when active electronics now kick in for stupidity, a trust fund can't buy talent, but I digress.
I think a euro-hillbilly rallycross with turbo'd fiero's (I hate those shitboxes so destroying them would send joy to my soul) and home built specials would be cool. I don't think it will replace figure eight caravan and or schoolbus racing but if you start it with a sawdust+non-diary creamer cannon I think the edge will be won. OH--------Serve with lots of beer!!!!!!

^^^ Hmm. I like the way this feller thinks.

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Damn this thread and Dave's link to the golf.

The extra front subframe that is going in the rear arrives on monday which means I'm litterally 30 minutes with a sawzall away from being able to put the engine in the rear ................

Just have to get longer shift cables, run coolant lines from the front (down the exhaust tunnel), place the fuel cell in the front and get an electric pump for the power steering......

Someone tell me why I shouldn't?

---

-Jason

you should...I would if I was in a position to build one

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
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