rally future

Pass on the e21. Now an e30 would do nicely. But still why not get a e36. Easier to get parts for.

Spend some money on a good car to start with. You're going to have to dump 10 grand into the car easy and then have to live with it forever.

---

Michael LeCompte

I'm hoping to soon be a rwd convert from fwd. I'm looking for a volvo 240 for a daily driver to replace my scirocco. I've been having too much fun driving rwd work trucks (complete with generator, air compressor, welder, and torches in the back) and making those go sideways in the snow. Then I learned that the volvos have a dana 30 rear end so you can get ring and pinions from 3.01:1 to 5.38:1 all day long for $160. If you want a fwd VW ring and pinion and not pay $800 for it you have to find 4 other guys, pick one of the two ratios available, and then convince JVL to import 5 VW ring and pinions from the UK for ~$450 each. Then when 4th gear explodes instead of being able to get a cheap replacement you have to have the pinion shaft welded and remachined to fix the chipped tooth.

My opinion is that if you're going to build your own car it doesnt matter if you're familiar with the model or not. Since you're gonna take it all apart anyways, you'll get intimate with it anyways.

Now if I could just find a bloody 240 within half a days drive from me...

ftwelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> small world huh? I am sure you know Jon Liland. I
> didn't go nuts in the rule book yet so I am just
> going to throw this out there. Am I limited to
> vehicles used in their stock configurations? for
> group 2? Can you mix and match motors, build your
> own car? My daily driver is FWD and frankly, I
> can't figure it out. My love for VW's is from my
> buggy days and naturally, when I started messing
> with cars again, I would start with VW. I like
> german thinking, construction and parts. How about
> making my own RWD rabbit? Use the 1.8 16V motor,
> that ford tranny you mentioned and some 9" locker
> in a home made punkin'. It's been snowing like
> crazy here and my driver (85 cabby) has no
> e-brake, I feel like a dork trying to get it
> sideways. it works sometimes but I use 92 chevy
> van to go drift.
>
> The stuff on youtube is all euro stuff. Is anyone
> running RWD here? It looks like a blast but is
> there a class? Will I get smoked by a guy in a
> camero? why not a camero for gp 5?
>
> I only saw Jim Pomeroy (RIP) once, he held court
> till the wee hours and proceeded to lap the field
> the next day. I never met him. he was always
> surrounded with people at the vintage races.
>
> It's good to meet you guys.
>
> www.frankthewelder.com
> www.sinisterbikes.com
> learning the ropes by wrapping them around my
> neck


This is the rwd rallycar lovefest website Lot's of Xratty pervs here, haven't seen many Camaros but there is a very successful v8 Mustang running.

I think NASA allows altered drive configs in G2 and G5 (new this year AFAIK), A mid-engine, rear drive bunny is possible with all VW bits, there are pics of a rear drive MK II in a recent post here somewhere. How about a twin-engined open class rabbit :}

I believe RA and CARS restrict you to original drive configuration for G2 and G5 (you may be able to go from 4wd to 2wd) but open is free.

Cheers, Ted

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm hoping to soon be a rwd convert from fwd. I'm
>
>
> Now if I could just find a bloody 240 within half
> a days drive from me...

Carl, they're laying around here in Sleezattle like dogshit on the front lawn.
Drive out, tow a RUST FREE one back.
The gas is sorta cheap now, you can rest up for a dayor so here at the Ford Asylum and drive back.
The gas and time driving is better than spending the same time welding rust or paying a shitload for an unrusty one.

And by the way, the 2,3 liter motor doesn't hurt either.

It's laid out exactly like a VW watercooled just a LOT BIGGER. And there's even parts interchangeable: 8V Vw stem seals are the same as 8v Volvo!!
And wait it gets better! 16v VW stem seals and hydraulic followers are the same as Volvo 16v! Ain't that amazing!?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

OK, more research.. Ill be back with more questions. thanks a tin

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Carl, they're laying around here in Sleezattle
> like dogshit on the front lawn.
> Drive out, tow a RUST FREE one back.

Its a time thing. I dont have the time for a cross country trip. The baby can only take 4-5 hours in the car at a time, so thats why I have to find one close by.
Unless one of those sleazysatellites out there happens to be coming this way and can drive one over.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hell go buy Grant "like Namasté, doood" Hughes car
> in Colorado so he can return to the ashram in
> Kerala and learn from his saddu.

Hahaha. You know who says Namaste in India. The foreign hippies that are there for the spiritual aspects of the country and the Indian that cater/take advantage of them. You know who the millionaires are? The gurus who run the ashrams to take advantage of all the schmucks. I suppose that one of the hundreds of people we saw squating taking a poo in the am hours on the shoulders of the highway may have yelled namaste bitches as we were passing by, but I doubt it.

Yeah though, just buy my car. It's ready to go right now, a few more upgrades and you'll be making people wonder why all the cars can't go like that one!

---

Grant Hughes

This guy has got a pretty fast and mean sounding camaro that is fast on the desert stages out here in CA. The pic should be on the home page.

www.rallyplanbsite.com/

Nice to meet you Grant.

---

www.frankthewelder.com
www.sinisterbikes.com
learning the ropes by wrapping them around my neck

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hell go buy Grant "like Namasté, doood"
> Hughes car
> > in Colorado so he can return to the ashram
> in
> > Kerala and learn from his saddu.
>
> Hahaha. You know who says Namaste in India?

Yeah, I know. That's what I gave you your , like new nickname, doooood.




The
> foreign hippies that are there for the spiritual
> aspects of the country and the Indian that
> cater/take advantage of them. You know who the
> millionaires are?

Uh yeah, like what's new?




The gurus who run the ashrams
> to take advantage of all the schmucks.

Yep.
My former mechanic Emily's Mom was one.



I suppose
> that one of the hundreds of people we saw squating
> taking a poo in the am hours on the shoulders of
> the highway may have yelled namaste bitches as we
> were passing by, but I doubt it.
>
> Yeah though, just buy my car. It's ready to go
> right now, a few more upgrades and you'll be
> making people wonder why all the cars can't go
> like that one!

Well?
Did the bikewelder buy it?
Lissen!
You don't have to be silly and get rid of BOTH 4.3 Stuprah diffs ya twat.
There are peeeples that want those.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

Hugs-n-kisses, my child.
Heading out for New Years fun with wifey and the girls!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey Frank,

Here is my two cents; and to preface it I'll admit I am working on a volvo 240. And somebody is going to lay all this on you sooner or later.


Above you mentioned wanting to go sideways, and if you want a tough, fun rally car that won't make you pull your eyebrows out, it is the volvo 240 hands down.

When we got to try out Tim Taylor's 323 gtx and the 240 side by side on nice dirt roads (a very fun day) the difference was instantly clear. Non-bike guys will have to excuse me here, the gtx was very much like a BMX bike, while the 240 felt like the proverbial pre-war Schwinn. With the volvo, you have to really throw it to get sliding, then you can slide all day. The mazda always was ready to rotate. People like different things, but the 240 was more fun/less scary to me. And yes the mazda was way quicker, I'm still checking dumpsters for a turbocharger...

The cheap and easy arguements are very strong too.

-Al

So its late and I'm tired (6month old and a 3 year old ruling the weekend) so some comment might be a little hard to read.. but i re-read through most of this thread and have a few points.

1. go drive the piss out of the cabbie on the hills... its so much fun

2. vw's have a wide range of gear ratio's available.. you just have to dig through the local scrap heap for em

3. to to a rallyx (there are quite a few around) and start talking to people and getting rides... car choice is going to come down to personal preference of what you like to drive. I thought my rabbit was the shit... till i drove a mk3 vw... it was solid, less on the edge but still super controlable and more tossable than a WRX i had driven a few events before.

4. I started rebuilding my rabbit into a rally car again (anyone remember the Warpig from Scott Williams?) The rabbit was a shit show.. always breaking and then the stress cracking started up again... I was done. I had a spare Log Booked shell for a rabbit but after seeing the growing price in parts and a wolup from a good friend I started looking at the newer cars... there are no rabbits left in junkyards and whats left out there for parts is growing in price.. its the same for a lot for a lot of the old favs. 240 volvo's included... do you really want to kiss a tree and pay 200 for a fender or a front spindle? I've got a barn full of Mk3 vw stuff for way cheap (like 200 for 3 front end body work sets and 275 for a cleanish spare car!)

5. Don't buy a used car without looking it over with a fine tooth comb, stress and fatigue are a killer!

5. Ive crewed for a few teams and helped build a few racer/rally cars... over build the fuck out of everything! Yes be light but be light in the right places, yes an O2O is a great trans and works with a decent amount of power.. but the equally as available O2J is built soo much stronger and you can use a VR6 clutch... this fuckers not going to break on me (my record is 5 O2O's in one year.. of street driving!!!)

6. Know where your car will break and design it to break where you want it to. I don't reinforce and I don't recommend reinforcing your front control arms on vw's they are cheap and quick to replace (10 mins if your good!) but if you reinforce them you could do damage to your sub-frame or worse unibody. (yes tear me up on this one.. blah blah blah)

7. Have fun, if your hobby becomes a job without making the decision to make it so... its not a hobby!

8. you will need the biggest rear sway bar you can find for the rear of your rabbit hillclimbing - its a bear on flat ground but necessary to get up the mountain

9. its time for bed.. i'll read this over in the morning... tear away anarchy peeps!!

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So its late and I'm tired (6month old and a 3 year
> old ruling the weekend) so some comment might be a
> little hard to read.. but i re-read through most
> of this thread and have a few points.

Yeah I have an almost 4 year old and an almost 2 year old, AND I'm ripped up in the neck and shoulders, I can't sleep for the pain OFTEN, so I'm tired too but you said rip it up and so OK:
>
> 1. go drive the piss out of the cabbie on the
> hills... its so much fun

Beating on almost any car is fun so that's + or - nothing either way.

>
> 2. vw's have a wide range of gear ratio's
> available.. you just have to dig through the local
> scrap heap for em

FUCK ME>
I mean really. FUCK ME
Ther are a wide range of ROAD CAR ratios but are any of the useful for making a VW go QUICKER.
Do you think that a 3,9 or 4.2 diesel final drive with a street POS wide ratio trans is going to be HELPFUL????????
Helpful compared to what?

Sorry, regardless of your experience in hillclimbs and etc it seems you don't understand the role of final drives and close ratios in helping a small engined car in quick aclleration and maintaining "ax" up to whatever max speed your need.

The POS thing that VW fans call a "close ratio" box is not close ratio box, it is in fact a very wide ratio box, wider than the stock box in my beater street Xratty---which I should remind you has a 2.3 turbocharged motor with a bit more torque and a far wider spread of torque than a normal aspirated VW.

There are NO usefully short ratios in the junkyards such as 4.88 or the desirable 5.08:1, less so are there any gearboxes with a decent spread beginning at around 2.3 for first and 0.96 for top.
Nor are there ANY of the later gearsets with the well underdriven top gear of 1.15 or 1.16 to combine with the later 4,2 Motorsport Final drives.

Do you understand the role of a short final drive? How it multiplies torque?
Do you understand the way a close ratio gearset sustains acceleration?

>
> 3. to to a rallyx (there are quite a few around)
> and start talking to people and getting rides...

We have been over this ad nauseaum .
Unless your stages are all in first and secoond gear on grassy fields, this is hardly much use in proving anything about what car is a good long term choice to sink a bunch of fixed costs like cage and suspension into.

> car choice is going to come down to personal
> preference of what you like to drive. I thought my
> rabbit was the shit... till i drove a mk3 vw... it
> was solid, less on the edge but still super
> controlable and more tossable than a WRX i had
> driven a few events before.
>
> 4. I started rebuilding my rabbit into a rally car
> again (anyone remember the Warpig from Scott
> Williams?) The rabbit was a shit show.. always
> breaking and then the stress cracking started up
> again... I was done. I had a spare Log Booked
> shell for a rabbit but after seeing the growing
> price in parts and a wolup from a good friend I
> started looking at the newer cars... there are no
> rabbits left in junkyards and whats left out there
> for parts is growing in price.. its the same for a
> lot for a lot of the old favs. 240 volvo's
> included... do you really want to kiss a tree and
> pay 200 for a fender or a front spindle?

Please try and be serious, or at least have some connection with reality rather than throwing totally made up figures like that.
It doesn't help the discussion, and its silly, flat silly.
I was out at the wrecking yard yeaterday pulling a non-AC PS pump bracket for Rally Amnarchista Ian Topping from Michigan.
There were zero Rabbits, 1 Sirocco and at least 10 Volvos. Complete strut with the spindle is $20 Fenders are under 15.



I've got
> a barn full of Mk3 vw stuff for way cheap (like
> 200 for 3 front end body work sets and 275 for a
> cleanish spare car!)

And presuming you stick with the sport for a while, when the inevitable desire to make the car into a real rally car hits, where are you going to get the gear set, and final drive for way cheap? What about a stronger diff? Or a stronger outer CV? What about stroner inner CVs??
>
> 5. Don't buy a used car without looking it over
> with a fine tooth comb, stress and fatigue are a
> killer!
>
> 5. Ive crewed for a few teams and helped build a
> few racer/rally cars... over build the fuck out of
> everything! Yes be light but be light in the
> right places, yes an O2O is a great trans and
> works with a decent amount of power.. but the
> equally as available O2J is built soo much
> stronger and you can use a VR6 clutch... this
> fuckers not going to break on me (my record is 5
> O2O's in one year.. of street driving!!!)
>
> 6. Know where your car will break and design it to
> break where you want it to. I don't reinforce and
> I don't recommend reinforcing your front control
> arms on vw's they are cheap and quick to replace
> (10 mins if your good!) but if you reinforce them
> you could do damage to your sub-frame or worse
> unibody. (yes tear me up on this one.. blah blah
> blah)

Right. Blah blah indeed.
Strengthen the fuck outta the arms, strenthen the stupid crossmember and strengthen the fuck out of the body shell where stress enters the bodyshell> RESOLVE STRESSINTO STRUCTURES.

>
> 7. Have fun, if your hobby becomes a job without
> making the decision to make it so... its not a
> hobby!
>
> 8. you will need the biggest rear sway bar you can
> find for the rear of your rabbit hillclimbing -
> its a bear on flat ground but necessary to get up
> the mountain
>
> 9. its time for bed.. i'll read this over in the
> morning... tear away anarchy peeps!!

Look you want to run slightly warmed over street cars. Fine.
The result for MANY who have taken that path is (how'd the guy who won the National Gp2 title recently say when we were talking last night? BORING, He said hit was getting BORING with his low spec golf, and the NEXT OBVIOUS STEP was sillily expensive for ZERO return.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Well you are one lucky prick to be living in the NW because around here any car from the 80's is pretty much a rust bucket unless you are very luckly, and most junkyards usually crush anything over 10 years of age... it blows. As for facts I should dig up what my friend payed for the front fender for his 240 wagon not to long ago... it was about 175 for a clean fender without having to ship one from afar.

Gear ratio's and keeping a car on the move.. ya been there studied that to death. I currently rock a stock vw trans with a 4.235 final with a nice spread between 3.8, gives me about 2500, 2000, 1500, 1000 rpms drops between gears. As a mech eng I hope i know how it works because they I wouldn't trust myself to make the tools to save your life (I design medical devices)
Kaaz diff and OEM axels... havn't broken a set in a few years... we'll see what comes when the stages come.

He's bored? What? Bored? Guess its time for that driving god to move on to something else other than rally... I'd be happy with 90hp in an Rally Saab 99.. forever!

Seriously if I'm missing something let me know... no I haven't piloted a rally car down a stage yet, but i've beaten the hell out of a lot of cars on a lot of rough terrain, no i don't have an unlimited budget, yes I see my car as disposable, yes I'm an engineer, no I dont know everything, yes my views can be changed... ;-)

Thanks for the ripping.. more real info and knowledge would be helpful next time.

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well you are one lucky prick to be living in the
> NW because around here any car from the 80's is
> pretty much a rust bucket unless you are very
> luckly, and most junkyards usually crush anything
> over 10 years of age... it blows.

Yes I am lucky but in a way it's not luck.
I have lived a lot of countries and a lot of places in this country.
Lived in the fawkin Bawstin area from 94-2000 if you can call being surrounded by millions of aggressive, ignorant and stupid Massholes living.
So it was a choice to live here for a number of reasons vocational, political, recreational, aesthetics, nature, and cultcha dontcha know?

And one of those reasons was that since we aren't utterly addicted to status, and we can drive a little more like humans, we don't HAVE to salt the roads at anything like the rate needed to allow the typical Masshole to tailgate at 85 while smoking a ciggie and fucking with the radio and simultaneously talk to his buddy cradling a cell phone and rolling down the window to scream at somebody the Masshole imagine was thinking of cutting him off.

As such we have more nice old cars.

Also since well back into the very early 80s about 40+% of the cars sold were smaller import cars, we have a lot more likely candidates to choose from.
LOTS more---even if the numbers has shrunk drastically in last 15 years for OLD cars.




As for facts I
> should dig up what my friend payed for the front
> fender for his 240 wagon not to long ago... it was
> about 175 for a clean fender without having to
> ship one from afar.

Can't help it if your friend paid something stupid for whatever reasons, he needn't have, but he did, but that is not the norm. And as such doesn't address the real issues here regarding the really rather inarguable advantages to the owner present in a front engine/rear drive car.
>
> Gear ratio's and keeping a car on the move.. ya
> been there studied that to death.

Obviously you studied the wrong books for what the subject here is.




I currently rock
> a stock vw trans with a 4.235 final with a nice
> spread between 3.8, gives me about 2500, 2000,
> 1500, 1000 rpms drops between gears.

Surely you must understand that the subject isn't what YOU have decided suits YOU just dandy now, but rather what somebody who decided that they want to have correct or suitable parts for THIS task is saddled with finding and paying.

So it's not always about YOU.

The thing we are trying to do is convince this guy up in Vermont--who seems to have had some connections to the world I was deep into back when i was 'serious" about racing----to consider what HE'LL be facing IF he decides to approach this rally stuff as a long term project--with presumptions on my part that:
a) the bug will bite
b) the infection will take hold
c) fixed or "non-transferable" costs such as cage and suspension and prep will TEND to "lock in" a person in their initial choice of car (since Rally being a fuckin OBSCURE sport still after all these decades, there is no ready market for used rally cars like there is for used moto-cross bikes or mountain bikes)

Now presuming that stuff, depending on the guys' degree of infection, and other factors (age, degree of "commitment" what he's used to in previous endeavors) a guy may decide he wants a higher output motor and with raised BHP and torque points, the need for closer ratios than stock VW shit arises.

CLOSE is akin 2.3-1.68-1.35-1.16-1.0 not 3.6 first and ending with some .8 something overdrive


And of course the rpm drops are dependent on how high the motor is revved and that depends on the powerband which is largely a function of camshaft and compression.

Do you see how "tall" the lower gears are?
Now you see where final drives like 4.88 and 5.1 come into play.

SO:
IF our boy wants to have an experience like a real rally car, THEN what is a proper gearset going to cost him?

And if he wants a shorter final drive to get the "industry standard" of about 5.0 for top gear overall ratio for normal aspirated around 2.0 liter cars on 62-64cm tall tires, THEN WHAT IS THAT GOING TO COST?

And IF the guy wants a good LSD and lets just say he doesn't want to cough up dough for the gearset, final drive and LSD at the same time.
How much time is it going to cost pulling the trans assemble out and splitting it open 2 or 3 times?

And IF he does like everybody I knows who is around as fast as my old Saab---which never broke a hub or a CV or a drive axle, and he begins breaking the outer CV at the root of the spindle part of the CV,, or blowing up the cages in the outer or blowing up the inner CVs or............breaking the hub at the base of the flange..IF he want to try and beef up those parts BEFORE DNFing 6-8 times, then what is HE going to do, not what you've done, what is HE going to find and spend not just for the Golf but ANY FWD CAR??





As a mech eng
> I hope i know how it works because they I wouldn't
> trust myself to make the tools to save your life
> (I design medical devices)

Well you seem to make the classic, and curious mistake of thinking some other schooling in totally unrelated areas somehow inexplicably imparts knowledge in another area and that the possesion or not in your head is the subject.

Wrong on several points.
But the best way to say it would be "I would be an a silly person to tell you about designing medical devices as there are specific operating parameters and performance demands in each very narrow specialty. It would be bordering on outrgeous if in a discussion of say surgical devices if I said "I have a Bacho adjustable wrench, a real metric adjustable and it works fine, I got it out of the trunk of a Saab in a junkyard in Värmland so good tools are out there if you look"








> Kaaz diff and OEM axels... havn't broken a set in
> a few years... we'll see what comes when the
> stages come.

Again we've tried to make you understand that shock as it may seem, the subject isn't what YOU have done but rather what somebody else NOT COMMITTED to a particular car might do to exercise his options.
>
> He's bored? What? Bored? Guess its time for that
> driving god to move on to something else other
> than rally... I'd be happy with 90hp in an Rally
> Saab 99.. forever!

You might. MOST people with any competitive blood I have known in the last 40 years seem to itch for MORE accelleration, more brakes, better steering, better ratios EVENTUALLY.
>
> Seriously if I'm missing something let me know...
> no I haven't piloted a rally car down a stage yet,
> but i've beaten the hell out of a lot of cars on a
> lot of rough terrain, no i don't have an unlimited
> budget, yes I see my car as disposable, yes I'm an
> engineer, no I dont know everything, yes my views
> can be changed... ;-)

None of us have unlimited budgets.
That's why I ask what the very likely potential future wished for upgrades will cost a person when the infection spreads to the brain and they start with "the twitch" and the perv laugh, the one that goes "Heh heh...heh...."


I seriously believe that one reason we have such a poor RETENTION rate is that people get into cars which LOCKS THEM INTO A NO UPGRADE PATH.
Either they cannot find real parts which really transform the car into a REAL RALLY CAR, or they cannot justify the cost of the parts if the parts are available and as a consequence, they are not having near the fun and excitement they could be having and they grow bored.
They then start eying Blue Sub-a-rats, sell their low spec car at a huge loss, and either drop out or buy a blue Sub-a-rat, then dig a hole, find that the car works so well that it essentially drives itself, find that less than soul wrenchingly satisfying, and then THEY DROP OUT.

>
> Thanks for the ripping.. more real info and
> knowledge would be helpful next time.

Sorry you have the responsibility to educate yourself some on your own.
There are extremely detailed manuals scanned and posted here with literally 400-500 pages of set ups, ratios, techiques of construction, etc all developed by Ford Motorsports and VW Motorsports,

Have you read ANY of those?

But I am glad to have the opportunity to clarify what at least I am hoping the guy in Vermont seems to be asking. Or should be asking.
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.