rally future

Can you please?

Define "real rally car"
Post links to mentioned scanned VW Motorsports papers
Tell me why a car will handle so totally different when in 4th over 2nd (rally vs. rallyx)
Explain why being able to do to 35 in 1st and only 81 in 5th is a good thing with a nice wide powerband? (seems like a lot of shifting to me, and hey what about tarmac rallies, do I need another gear box?)
Explain why stating what I like won't help the this guy?
Explain how my profession and my degree doesn't help me know how cars work?

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Define "real rally car"



Couldn't resist. In honesty though, I've never understood the VW rally craze here. They don't really seem strong enough to handle the beating, evidenced by the amount of DNFs from silly mechanical things.

> Post links to mentioned scanned VW Motorsports papers

I don't have the VW ones, but they're easily found if you search for them. I do have these ones...
Escort Cosworth Group A:
http://nocoastmotorsports.net/Build/Resources/groupamanual.pdf

Here's the original Escort one:
http://nocoastmotorsports.net/Manuals/EscortOriginal.zip

Here's an RX7 one:
http://nocoastmotorsports.net/Manuals/rx7competitionmanual.pdf

This one is quite useful to you FWD guys, RS200:
http://nocoastmotorsports.net/Manuals/F2_gpA_rallyprep_issue2_96.pdf

I think this is the original Sierra one:
http://nocoastmotorsports.net/Manuals/Competition_preparation_Ford_Sierra.rar

> Tell me why a car will handle so totally different
> when in 4th over 2nd (rally vs. rallyx)

Is that a serious question?

> Explain why being able to do to 35 in 1st and only
> 81 in 5th is a good thing with a nice wide
> powerband? (seems like a lot of shifting to me,
> and hey what about tarmac rallies, do I need
> another gear box?)

Because you probably don't have a nice wide powerband. John's lifted stuff will get you probably 110-115 at the top gear. There is a reason why all the rally specific gearboxes and real rally cars have specs similar to what John has posted.

---

Grant Hughes

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you please?
>
> Define "real rally car"

If you can't see the difference between a gravel rally car and a warmed up slightly road car then you need to dig some yourself.
Did you spend some time looking at any of the hundreds and hundreds of F-Cup cars in Finnish events?
That should be a clue what real cars look, sound and most importantly GO LIKE.

> Post links to mentioned scanned VW Motorsports
> papers

They're in "Construction" but why make the effort, you're happy with what you have figured out.


> Tell me why a car will handle so totally different
> when in 4th over 2nd (rally vs. rallyx)

Speed is not a mere multiplier of forces.
Go back to first week physics class.


> Explain why being able to do to 35 in 1st and only
> 81 in 5th is a good thing with a nice wide
> powerband?

Higher performance normal apirated cars don't have nice wide powerbands, warmed over street cars might but higher outcars cars don't.
And if you car only does 81 in 5th, then you need to open the throttle more.
My 135,000, broken top ring junk 1500 Saab V4 way back in 1980 would do 91mph.
My nice current car with 5.45:1 ring and pinion, 0,92 top gear does 105mph at the 7100 rpm rev limiter.

See? Your figures do not add up so somewhere there are errors in some fundamental presumptions.



(seems like a lot of shifting to me,
> and hey what about tarmac rallies, do I need
> another gear box?)

No, not in most of the world.

> Explain why stating what I like won't help the
> this guy?

Damn I don't believe you can read clear English.
This forums software won't allow any larger fonts or any colors but still I cannot imagine---were you actually iunterested in reading other opinions, mulling them over and incorporating new information--rather than arguing-- that you could miss the clearly stated and implied point that YOU have made your decisions, the guy who statrted the thread as far as we know has not as yet made a decision.

> Explain how my profession and my degree doesn't
> help me know how cars work?

Either by prior inclination of by going thru the system, many "Injur-nears" seem absolutely convinced that they can figure out anything and everything and dismiss offhand a) established documented engineering solutions, b) prior experience of people in some fields even if they have nearly 40 years doing the thing.
You seem to be one of those type of "injur-nears".




No, do it yourself.
You aren't interested in learning, you are interested in arguing, and I learned long ago not to waste time arguing with people, especially "Injur-nears".

You missed direct questions asking what THE OTHER POOR BASTARD would have to do IF HE DECIDED to try and optimise a car using the normal conventional means to making a car go down a gravel road FAST.

When somebody fails to answer a question posed as it was it is prima facia evidence that they do not wish to engage in normal discourse but rather prove the imagined position in the hierarchy by arguing.

We try and discuss affiliatively here and that seems to have escaped you.
Sorry.

Want to go back and try and answer those questions about what the other guy will face if he goes FWD in any car?

Because the answer to those questions LEADS US to a different SET of choices to achieve the goal of cost effectively going down a road fast.

>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey man, i dont know what engineer pissed you off in the past but you have the wrong idea about me. I want to learn, otherwise why would I ask questions? I stated what I knew about rally and my personal experience... sorry if I don't measure up to you and your godly RWD rally ways, and your super read experience.

I've learned what I know through a lot of conversations with a lot of different people across the motorsports arena, and I'm sure quite a bit of it will be change the more I learn about rally. I'm new to this site remember... there are many many pages of posts in the Construction Zone, sorry I haven't taken a year off of work to read them all.

Lighten up and teach. Realize that some people don't have the money/time to build a full out "RALLY" car and enjoy driving what you call a warmed over "street"car with different wheel drive, differently geared gear box and "weaker" axels. My "street car" bouncing of the limiter at 6500 will put the biggest smile my face has seen since I got lost my virginity.

People like you are apparently the reason people read specialstage.

oh and http://www.everdrive.com/partdetails.aspx?sku=461921&utm_source=google&utm_medium=googlebase&utm_campaign=shopping

235 bucks for a front fender for a 88 VOLVO!!!! You could make a killing with your 15 buck ones!!

This is a 1.6L RWD Toyota Starlet. Find one video from the US in any class that even compares to the enjoyment and sheer giddyness that this video inspires. You won't.

---

Grant Hughes

DexterVW Wrote:
> People like you are apparently the reason people read specialstage.

This comment, in a historical context, has much amusement and irony. I enjoyed it.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

This just reminded me, I posted up some videos I think it was on here, of a single stage in Finland of two top 2WD drivers in the country at the same rally. One in a RWD Starlet (same guy as above), and one in a FWD Honda Civic. There times were nearly identical on the stage. I found it useful to look and think to myself, which of these would I be more likely to be able to mimic and which one of these looks like more fun? I'll see if I can find the thread.

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Grant Hughes

Lighten up John.

Your suggestions regarding gearing directly conflict with your suggestions regarding long-wheelbased Volvos for the relatively FAST American stages. I can name MANY rallys in the US where a top speed of 105mph leaves you at a 20+mph deficit to the turbo 2wd and 4wd cars on the straighter sections:

Laughlin
Olympus-2008
Maine
100AW
LSPR

and I am sure there are plenty more....

If the competition can reach 125+mph you should gear accordingly assuming you have the POWER to reach max RPM.

105mph vs 125mph on a 500M straight is worth well over 1 second....

4.24 R&P with .915th and 62cm tires does 133MPH at 7100RPM....
I might not have the motor to pull it (or anywhere close) but if someone had a "Proper" turned up motor with 250hp THEY could do it no problem and would awfully dissapointed with some ~5.0:1 total drive ratio in 5th without some WAY bigger tires....

Your definition of "Proper" is inconsistent.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey man, i dont know what engineer pissed you off
> in the past but you have the wrong idea about me.

No engineer, Engineers who do non-motorsport things who you can't say a thing to in motorsport related areas including things wone has been paid for doing, without an argument.

> I want to learn, otherwise why would I ask
> questions?

But when NEW to you information is presented, there are no indications that you have even READ the shit. Nothing like "FUCK ME 5.1 is NORMAL???!!!!" I didn't know that"
You instead ask questuions which at least 3 people have read as "taunting" such as "What's a real rally car?"

That doesn't sound like you are interested in conversation, it sounds like you are set on arguing.
TONE is lacking.




I stated what I knew about rally and
> my personal experience... sorry if I don't measure
> up to you and your godly RWD rally ways, and your
> super read experience.

I have only rallied a FRONT WHEEL DRIVE rally car.
But I have real gearset, 5.45 ring and pinion, a all steel LSD, and spares af all thse, and HAD a more than full time business which was 95% the same model car I rallied---there was a REASON for ME to use that car.
>
> I've learned what I know through a lot of
> conversations with a lot of different people
> across the motorsports arena, and I'm sure quite a
> bit of it will be change the more I learn about
> rally.

Yes but you will learn MORE and FASTER by engaging in discourse not arguments.
By GRANTING some here the benefit of doubt in this narrow endeavor who post specific info that conters what you seem to think is "good" (I didn't say FUN, beating on anything is fun, even if its not good)



I'm new to this site remember... there are
> many many pages of posts in the Construction Zone,
> sorry I haven't taken a year off of work to read
> them all.
>
> Lighten up and teach.

I'm as light as can be, I don't get excited when people want to argue, are you projecting?



Realize that some people
> don't have the money/time to build a full out
> "RALLY" car and enjoy driving what you call a
> warmed over "street"car with different wheel
> drive, differently geared gear box and "weaker"
> axels. My "street car" bouncing of the limiter at
> 6500 will put the biggest smile my face has seen
> since I got lost my virginity.

BUt DOOOOOOD THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
You have made your choices, please ferfucksakes go back and read what I have written and stop being obtuse.
I help and have spent countless hours on warmed oover stuff, but I also know that even warmed over shit costs something, Fuck me I invented the concept "Dollar spent to laugh return curve"

What I have been trying to do is get folks to think "OK I start with this Nowigotcha GZX, it'll be OK for a while----but I wonder where I can find......"
When the guy finds that a slow dog is only mildly amusing on FAST STAGES.
Dood I've seen that tthing smack guys in the face dozens of times.

But then they're stuck with those fixed costs in their NowigotchaGZX and not a single worthile alternate REAL motorsport part available.

>
> People like you are apparently the reason people
> read specialstage.

Well I don't wear pleated skirts or have Pom Poms or know any rousing Pep Songs to sing the endless praises of Kenny and Travvie and discuss the color scheme of their new Wreckes---how appropriate yet again for Kennie B this weekend.
>
> oh and
>
> 235 bucks for a front fender for a 88 VOLVO!!!!
> You could make a killing with your 15 buck ones!!

See? You are more interested in arguing truly silly shit than tell us where the original thread starter will find shit and what he'll have to pay if HE decides to build a car that is somewhat optimised for gravel rally..


I don't think this has ever been said here on RallyAnarchy, but you're spinning a thread way off topic even for this place with no rules.
Good Job!

Oi!


>
>
>
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Josh Wimpey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lighten up John.

Perfectly Light, Josh.
>
> Your suggestions regarding gearing directly
> conflict with your suggestions regarding
> long-wheelbased Volvos for the relatively FAST
> American stages. I can name MANY rallys in the US
> where a top speed of 105mph leaves you at a 20+mph
> deficit to the turbo 2wd and 4wd cars on the
> straighter sections:
>
> Laughlin
> Olympus-2008
> Maine
> 100AW
> LSPR
>
> and I am sure there are plenty more....

No Josh what you post is the reason I push 240s or Xratties.

The extreme expense of a normal aspirated car that can go well on the absurdly fast stages leads me to suggest the cars with larger engines, longer wheelbases and turbos that will give you all the torque you want AND have a nice gentle powerband for ease of driving, good hook-up and low maintenence costs
>
> If the competition can reach 125+mph you should
> gear accordingly assuming you have the POWER to
> reach max RPM.
>
> 105mph vs 125mph on a 500M straight is worth well
> over 1 second....

Personally I believe top speeds are overemphasized.
The quickness of the car from 25 to around 90 is really decisive in my book.
Motor+gearing, eh.

>
> 4.24 R&P with .915th and 62cm tires does
> 133MPH at 7100RPM....

Oddly low max rpm there Josh.

> I might not have the motor to pull it (or anywhere
> close) but if someone had a "Proper" turned up
> motor with 250hp THEY could do it no problem and
> would awfully dissapointed with some ~5.0:1 total
> drive ratio in 5th without some WAY bigger
> tires....
>
> Your definition of "Proper" is inconsistent.

Naw just not choosing the same criteria as you.

I gotta run to the machine shop and pick up a head for a Gp2 Volvo (2350cc, 11.4:1 nasty!!!47mm in/40.5mm 7mm titanium valves, JVAB rods and pistons 500g lighter per hole than OEM YIKES!!!)
Maybe you could humor me and plug in some numbers for gearsets and Diffs and final drives---and then the scary stuff axles, and CVs
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> __________-
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

DexterVW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People like you are apparently the reason people
> read specialstage.


Sorry but this is the funniest thing I have read on here.

It's the other way around

---

-Jason

mack73 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DexterVW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > People like you are apparently the reason
> people
> > read specialstage.
>
>
> Sorry but this is the funniest thing I have read
> on here.
>
> It's the other way around
>
>
>
> 94 Golf
> www.Mack73.com


I'm not too sure....

Firstly, I'll admit that I only skimmed most of Johns informative rantings, and only really read the paragraphs with the bold in them, and the least "ghetto spelled" words.

secondly, This guy is clearly is new. Why are you making novel-esque posts trying to educate him with a "clearly your retarded" demenor.

and thirdly, guy, I forget what your name is (Classy, i know...), Look at European (in general) and australian cars too. Not just Group F cars in Finland. People make real rally cars out of AWD, FWD, AND RWD.... even though John will debate that until he is dead. Unless its his saab.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

>>>> Oddly low max rpm there Josh.

This is budget guy stuff and I subscribe to your $-per-smiles theory. It costs money to BUILD and even more $$$ to RUN something in the 8000+RPM range all while eeeking out a tiny bit more power. $-per-smile ratio==Too High



>>>>Maybe you could humor me and plug in some numbers for gearsets and Diffs and final drives---and then the scary stuff axles, and CVs

VW 020 Gearbox:
Gearset--Stock $0
Diff--Kazz $800
4.24 Final Drive--$350
Axles & CVs--Stock NEW units $80 each half-shaft assembled: replace every 3-5 events if they start to feel loose. Keep your old halfshafts for your street car or sell them to teenagers for $30 each.

IF you can drive relatively quickly without __hitting__ stuff, stock works quite well :-)


I think there is definitely something to be said for K.I.S.S. Mixing and matching different parts and makes and models is way beyond what many people have TIME and/or ABILITY (really, mostly it is the time thing for most of us). How many half-built and 1/4 developed Frankencars never make it out on the stages? Or only make it to one or two events due to teething problems, frustration and lack of TIME to implement solutions?

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

Sorry, I'm cerial I'm not trying to argue, its probably the engineer in me... i'm stating where I got my facts and drew my conclusions (expensive Volvo parts, etc).


>No engineer, Engineers who do non-motorsport things who you can't say a thing to in
>motorsport related areas including things wone has been paid for doing, without an
>argument.

I'm really not trying to arguing, I've red quite a few books on racing car setup and theory, yes 99% road stuff. I've even helped build and completed my senior thesis on an FSAE car. But up until your slap happy remarks I had no idea how much pertained to rally.

So let me try a go at this ... you set your car up to accelerate as fast as possible from 25 to 90mph with super close gears. Thus allowing you to have the perfect gear set for most any corner vs having a wider set which would have you shift mid corner and thus upset the car or loose momentum?

But when NEW to you information is presented, there are no indications that you have even READ the shit. Nothing like "FUCK ME 5.1 is NORMAL???!!!!" I didn't know that"
You instead ask questuions which at least 3 people have read as "taunting" such as "What's a real rally car?"

Its hard to respond to new information when wrapped in crap.

That last mark was taunting... and in direct reply to calling my car a warmed over street car... its the greatest thing that i've scraped together yet! It will get me on stage and with it a lot of blood sweat and tears.

Far off topic depends on how you look at it... so far Frank the (apparently the MAN) Welder has learned that cars on the east coast don't last as long as in the west, what kind of gearing he's got to look for to the last umph out of this car, that there are people out there that have and do rally vw's and that at some point he might get bored with a slow car and want to go faster and he should take that into consideration when he debates his next car.

Can someone post the link for that czech vw dogbox manufacturer again? Looked for it but couldnt find it. It was something like SQS or SQW or something
Thanks

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rally gods would turn in their graves if they ever knew Lada's were now part of EU rallying!!!