Stage notes

Does anyone think that the notes provided today are a real benefit versus tulips? Can any driver say that they aren't sight driving 99.9% of the time? I was reading the supps for Olympus and thought that the whole Jemba thing was a bit of a waste. I don't see the harm in letting teams make notes in a tulip route book on a on pass recce. To me the numbering system is pointless. When I watch in car video from the U.S. I think that the drivers really want the navigator to be quiet. What do you think?

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Notes are great. Where they really help is in situations where your sight reading is wrong. Like corners that are a lot tighter / straighter than they appear. Or situations like rally TN where the tree line follows the power polls but the road follows the terrain.

The question is, does any driver actually process the information fast enough to use it?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Yes. You realize it when your codriver gets off and you are driving to what you see. If it's really blind, like Rally Colorado where there aren't tree lines to follow and the terrain is a bit harder to read and the pace/speed is high, you really do have to slow down if you don't either know the road already or don't have notes to let you know what's coming.

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Grant Hughes

Rallymech Wrote:
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> The question is, does any driver actually process
> the information fast enough to use it?

Absolutely.

The thing about Jemba notes is that they are (more-or-less) consistent. Most US competitors don't have enough experience creating notes from scratch to make consistent notes, so Jemba notes (particularly with a one-pass "notes familiarization" recce) is a good compromise.

Gary Cavett and I did (pace note, two-pass) recce for the Merritt, BC rallies (Mountain Trials and Pacific Forest) several times. They use pretty much the same roads for both events. Our first set of notes were unusable the second time that we tried to use them. By our third set of notes on those roads, we never needed to change the notes (aside from noting surface changes from current conditions).

As far as using the Jemba notes and drivers processing the information fast enough, for some drivers, I had to spoon feed the information. For others, I had to give the driver the info two or more turns ahead, though sometimes I would have to remind him where we were in the sequence.

alan

as a rookie co-driver with a rookie driver in 2 rallies last year, notes helped us a lot...not to go faster, but to know ahead of time where the tight turns were, any 'gotchyas' (like that little bridge at prescott).

especially with Recce, it kept us grounded and safer than if we were driving blind for sure.

with finished both rallies with no offs or broken bits and we didn't completely embarrass ourselves in the standings.

Going 'really fast' with notes takes a bit more experience and much bigger balls.

no experience with jemba.

just my .02

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2009 04:01PM by Jon Burke.

Jon Burke Wrote:
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> notes helped us a lot...not to
> go faster, but to know ahead of time where the
> tight turns were, any 'gotchyas' (like that little
> bridge at prescott).

This is an excellent point.

I co-drove for the last Seed 8 driver to run an Open class (actually Group N) car before the Novice/Provisional driver rules started. This was his first rally ever. At the time, Seed 8 drivers were disallowed from using Stage Notes.

On his plus side, he was an experienced road racer and built the gearboxes on the car when it belonged to its previous owner.

I begged and begged to be allowed to run Stage Notes so that I knew what was coming so I knew whether to assume the crash position

Those first few stages with him were some of the scariest of my time in the co-driver seat as he was getting acclimated to driving on gravel at speed in a car that was capable of winning the rally overall and all I could tell him was "drive the road for the next mile".

alan

In Canada, there are 10-12 cars capable of winning, yet only 3-4 of them actually do. (not sure if you could say the same about the RA championship)

90% of the difference between the drivers fighting for 1st and the drivers fighting for 10th can be explained by their ability to make notes and their commitment to the notes.

Some might disagree, but I've heard the same story from drivers throughout the pack.

PNW tulips are heavenly...notes are better, but I am not afraid to run hard on tulips in the PNW....definitely afraid to run hard anywhere else on tulips though.

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-Tom
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tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rallymech Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The question is, does any driver actually
> process
> > the information fast enough to use it?
>
> Absolutely.
>
> The thing about Jemba notes is that they are
> (more-or-less) consistent. Most US competitors
> don't have enough experience creating notes from
> scratch to make consistent notes, so Jemba notes
> (particularly with a one-pass "notes
> familiarization" recce) is a good compromise.
>
Actually most US drivers don't have enough experience period reading the road, notes are a waste of time until the experience to read the road has been obtained, then and only then should notes be used.

Notes are intended to reaffirm what the driver believes he sees the road doing -- without experience of reading the road how can notes do this? Simple answer, notes cannot!

One needs to learn basic skills of car control and reading the road, if one does this well then they are usually fast an able to deal with situations that arise while at speed. Only then should consideration of needing and using notes be thought about.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is an excellent point.
>
> I co-drove for the last Seed 8 driver to run an
> Open class (actually Group N) car before the
> Novice/Provisional driver rules started. This was
> his first rally ever. At the time, Seed 8 drivers
> were disallowed from using Stage Notes.
>
> On his plus side, he was an experienced road racer
> and built the gearboxes on the car when it
> belonged to its previous owner.
>
> I begged and begged to be allowed to run Stage
> Notes so that I knew what was coming so I knew
> whether to assume the crash position
>
> Those first few stages with him were some of the
> scariest of my time in the co-driver seat as he
> was getting acclimated to driving on gravel at
> speed in a car that was capable of winning the
> rally overall and all I could tell him was "drive
> the road for the next mile".
>
> alan
>
>
Hey Alan,

Haveing ridden with and seen a few experienced road racers entering rally and the resulting behavior, I expect that tulips or notes would have made little differene in you experience. The 'getting acclimated to driving on gravel' phase is always 'interesting', shall we say, for most drivers who have had some success in road racing. (And, I'm not trying to argue with you at all, just sharing some experiences related to yours...)

I tend to agree with Sean's points very strongly; prioritize on car control and reading nuanced changes in the road (like changes in surface conditions and changes in grade and camber), and REALLY think about and learn the needed reactions to survive 'surprise' incidents before focusing on commitment to notes. Ultimately, having the skills to avoid spins into the trees, reading the road surface to adjust your driving, or even just being able to place the car in an 'off' in a way to minimize damage, is of far greater benefit to personal safety than any notes system.

Regards,
Mark B.

AlanO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Canada, there are 10-12 cars capable of
> winning, yet only 3-4 of them actually do. (not
> sure if you could say the same about the RA
> championship)
>
> 90% of the difference between the drivers fighting
> for 1st and the drivers fighting for 10th can be
> explained by their ability to make notes and their
> commitment to the notes.
>
> Some might disagree, but I've heard the same story
> from drivers throughout the pack.


Agreed. The difference is how good the co-driver is. I've seen you enable 4 or 5 drivers increase their speed by huge margins with you in the car.

---

Gone fishing

Sean makes an excellent point that I had taken for granted. The ability to read the road is not easily learned. I started driving as a teenager in Africa and was forced to read the road every second. When I moved to Germany and then back to the States I was amazed at how different the driving was.

I find that the Jemba system provides more information than most drivers can process. In Kenya we used a simplified system that was a combination of tulips and pace notes. For example: " medium right, 200, tightens, into hard left".

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sean makes an excellent point that I had taken for
> granted. The ability to read the road is not
> easily learned.

Of course he does.
But he's OLD!!!! At least 40, gawd they still let him drive!





For
> example: " medium right, 200, tightens, into hard
> left".

Ah that dates you too!

Didn't we talk about how some folks are driving at as much as 10-15mph over the speed limit and how it's important that the information come in a numeric way so that the slight extra effort would be required to process it before a person could utilise the info.
I mean its not like there are giant 3 dimesional stone or wood or Styrofoam NUMBERS strewn around the woods so when the co-driver calls 5 left into right 3 that they go round a bend and there's a huge 20 foot wooden 5 in the middle of the road folowed by a huge plaster sculpture of a 3 that they gotta dodge, that's not why they're so fixated on numerical notes.

Just like you are used to what you are used to and I am likewise set in the "medium right opens" "absolute left" dialect, because that was what we saw serious crews using when we were first into the sport---no other reason likewise the boys dead set on the "need" for notes stems not from a real need, not at the average mph that most crew do on our mostly straight road, but from the fact that that's what they saw and see on in-car videos.

As such it is rationalised as needed and needed in the absurd to you and me numeric delivery.

It has also beeb admitted in the past several times by loud co-drivers that "I feel I have something to do" and "I feel part of the team more"

So just like the top me unsightly, costly gussetts running the length of the A pillar blocking outward visibility that was just said "I like the look.." this notes thing is derived by a need to "look--and sound--the part" of what they idealise, no actual possible need---not at the speeds 98% are going. (Of course originally the note thing was in response to demands from certain blue car Japonaise rally teams who had then as now, idle rich who could take advantage most, who demanded that THEY should be allowed notes ALONE, and that wouldn't fly so the NEED was manufactured with the help of serveral noisy co-driver types. Utter hilarity.)

>
> Robert "the Dino Service-Nazi"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Alan,
>
> Haveing ridden with and seen a few experienced
> road racers entering rally and the resulting
> behavior, I expect that tulips or notes would have
> made little differene in you experience. The
> 'getting acclimated to driving on gravel' phase is
> always 'interesting', shall we say, for most
> drivers who have had some success in road racing.
> (And, I'm not trying to argue with you at all,
> just sharing some experiences related to
> yours...)

As I tried to say, the notes were for ME, so I knew what was coming up and whether to assume the crash position. If I had been allowed to use notes, I would have had another tool to use and try and control the driver.

BTW, that driver now has the gravel thing down and is a good rally driver.

As far as Sean's point, I think that this is one of those fundamental "what is rally" kind of issues.

If you started off rallying with (often not so good) route books, then reading the road is a vital skill. The fast drivers were the ones with car control ability AND the road reading ability.

On the other hand, if you started rallying today, say in BC, where the rallies are all full pace note event, then you don't need road reading skills as much. You still need car control ability to be fast, but you also need to be to partially ignore reading the road and instead trust the pace note.

Drivers that come up through rally through either path are gonna think that the way that they did it was THE way to do it.

alan