Stage notes

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> As I tried to say, the notes were for ME, so I
> knew what was coming up and whether to assume the
> crash position. If I had been allowed to use
> notes, I would have had another tool to use and
> try and control the driver.
>
OK, understood and very easy to appreciate your point!

Regards,
Mark B.

tipo158 Wrote:



> If you started off rallying with (often not so
> good) route books, then reading the road is a
> vital skill. The fast drivers were the ones with
> car control ability AND the road reading ability.
>
> On the other hand, if you started rallying today,
> say in BC, where the rallies are all full pace
> note event, then you don't need road reading
> skills as much. You still need car control
> ability to be fast, but you also need to be to
> partially ignore reading the road and instead
> trust the pace note.
>
> alan
>
Re reading the road: I disagree, what happens when the notes are bad or the co-driver (CD)--- never happens --- gets lost ... And this just after comments about someone coming from road racing to rally (not a personal attack). The same applies to a co-drivers ability to read the road. This also goes back to the notes reaffirming the drivers impression of the road, this builds confidence in the driver and CD (also in the notes) which in turns makes for better performance.

When a CD has his head in the book,"notes"(Gone with the wind ...) he is not learning to read the road, an a CD that can read the road is a great benefit, especially in blind rallies or when the notes have an issue, a good CD gives the driver more confidence --- the CD is reaffirming to the driver what the driver is seeing by verbal feed back, the CD can see what the road is doing too and is able to look further a head then the driver do to the drivers immediate attention to duties. This allows the CD to inform the driver about up coming events such as switch backs, intersection a head, line of sight disappears over crest ahead, etc..

This kind of experience and feel of the car has translated to many old school CD's jumping into drivers seats and being very fast drivers ... also getting different drivers to better performances. Many a driver has gained vast experience by having another driver co-drive, and co-driving themselves, this is do to reading the road and car control which lead to confidence ...

Great thread by the way!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

I understand and agree with your points, particularly if you primarily do blind rallies and Jemba note rallies without notes familiarization.

Note that I said being able to read the road is "less important", not unimportant in pace note event. I think that it is a secondary skill to fall back on when the primary skill does not work for whatever reason.

As far as co-driver mistakes, of course we make them. However, I made less with pace notes. Also, my pace notes had lots of things that I didn't call to make sure that I didn't get lost in the notes or could get back on quickly if I did.

"Also, my pace notes had lots of things that I didn't call to make sure that I didn't get lost in the notes or could get back on quickly if I did." This is a good reason to allow marking of the rout book.

I am surprised that so many people seem to accept the quality of our current notes system. Lets have a quick pole of drivers. What is the percentage split between driving what you see and what you hear?

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

First, some background.
I have co-driven and driven on tulips, organiser stage notes, Jemba and Pace notes, with the vast majority as a codriver in a fast-ish* car on pace notes.
(* relative to competition in US and Canada)

My observations are:

- drivers CAN process detailed notes fully
- commitment to notes only comes with experience with the driver/co-driver
- if you're using notes to confirm the road you're seeing, you're using them wrong.
- if you're writing notes to remind you of a section of road, you're writing them wrong.
- responding to the notes (NOT listening to them) allows you to focus on reading road conditions.
- Jemba notes are worth 2ish sec/mile
- Pace notes on 2 pass recce (with some experience making notes) are worth 3 sec+/mile.
- you need road reading skills, in terms of camber and grip, in order to make valuable pace notes.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Also, my pace notes had lots of things that I
> didn't call to make sure that I didn't get lost in
> the notes or could get back on quickly if I did."
>
> This is a good reason to allow marking of the route
> book.

You can mark the route book after your first pass now. Before that, unless there is recce, not sure what you use as the basis of marking the book.

However, at least in the PNW, you don't need to mark the route book to avoid getting lost. For every stage instruction in the route book, there is an corresponding arrow with the instruction number on the stage.

> I am surprised that so many people seem to accept
> the quality of our current notes system.

Note that the quality of route books vary.

Also, since the introduction of stage notes, I bet the route book instructions for stages that are only run as part of a RA national haven't been looked at closely since then.

alan

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, some background.
> I have co-driven and driven on tulips, organiser
> stage notes, Jemba and Pace notes, with the vast
> majority as a codriver in a fast-ish* car on pace
> notes.
> (* relative to competition in US and Canada)
>
> My observations are:
>

> - if you're using notes to confirm the road you're
> seeing, you're using them wrong.

Sorry but this statement is incorrect!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I understand and agree with your points,
> particularly if you primarily do blind rallies and
> Jemba note rallies without notes familiarization.
>
> Note that I said being able to read the road is
> "less important", not unimportant in pace note
> event. I think that it is a secondary skill to
> fall back on when the primary skill does not work
> for whatever reason.

Again, things change, such weather has changed since notes were written, rain verus sun etc., Notes reaffirm the driver & co-driver.
>
> As far as co-driver mistakes, of course we make
> them. However, I made less with pace notes.
> Also, my pace notes had lots of things that I
> didn't call to make sure that I didn't get lost in
> the notes or could get back on quickly if I did.
>
>

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:

> - if you're using notes to confirm the road
> you're seeing, you're using them wrong.
>
> Sorry but this statement is incorrect!
>
> As always IMHO

I am curious on what you base your humble opinion.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
>
> > - if you're using notes to confirm the road
> > you're seeing, you're using them wrong.
> >
> > Sorry but this statement is incorrect!
> >
> > As always IMHO
>
> I am curious on what you base your humble opinion.
>

Conversations with John Buffum, Stig Bloomquist and the firmest believer in pace notes I've ever talked too, Erik Carlsson ...

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
>Conversations with John Buffum, Stig Bloomquist and the firmest believer in pace notes I've ever talked too, Erik Carlsson ...

I'd suggest, in that case, that you:
- heard what you wanted to hear
- misunderstood what was being saying
- are taking their comments out of context.

Admittedly, I haven't talked to any of these knowledgeable or respected people on the subject so maybe your interpretation is a fair representation of their thoughts ... (although I have had brief conversations with two of the three)

On the other hand, my impressions come from doing, not talking...

Let me clarify...
- Including, and calling, obvious elements that can be clearly seen by the driver is done to increase confidence in the notes. In those cases the reading the road validates the notes.
- If you're comparing the road to the notes you see before you commit to either the notes or the road you're wasting brain power you COULD be using to focus on road conditions and unexpected (un-noted) elements.
- Some of the biggest gains in notes come from deceptive blind elements. Places where what you see leads you to the wrong conclusion about what actually happens.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd suggest, in that case, that you:
> - heard what you wanted to hear
> - misunderstood what was being saying
> - are taking their comments out of context.

Believe as you wish, I'm not here to argue or be the expert ... and you were not involved in the discussions ... I'd suggest you are inferring your opinion into what you were not privy too!

My experience leads me to a different opinion then your experiences have led you too.

>On the other hand, my impressions come from doing, not talking...

Well, I'll try to learn from your impressions as I'm relatively knew to rally this being the end of only my 29th year in the sport.

>Let me clarify...
>- Including, and calling, obvious elements that can be clearly seen by the driver >is done to increase confidence in the notes. In those cases the reading the road >validates the notes.

And the notes validate the drivers impression, which validates my point!

>- If you're comparing the road to the notes you see before you commit to either >the notes or the road you're wasting brain power you COULD be using to focus on >road conditions and unexpected (un-noted) elements.

>- Some of the biggest gains in notes come from deceptive blind elements. Places >where what you see leads you to the wrong conclusion about what actually happens.

Absolutely, and with experience one improves what is correct at what is seen more then not, again notes reaffirms or corrects if the road impression is wrong, it also gives the driver notice to be prepared when the question arrives ...

Notes came about for several reasons, the big advantage came to under powered cars that took time to get up to speed, notes reaffirmed the drivers impression of the road and allowed the drivers to stay on the power longer and maintain speed.

It is rather funny that with modern rally cars ability to get to speed so quickly drivers would be in-favor of notes, which more equalize the competition ... Go figure!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2009 11:14PM by SEANT.

> ...most US drivers don't have enough
> experience period reading the road, notes are a
> waste of time...
> Notes are intended to reaffirm what the driver
> believes he sees the road doing .

so when i tell my driver 300 flat over crest 50 caution brake right three...

my driver is supposed to read the road and know that after this long straight just over that tiny hill that there is a sharp right hand turn???? WTF

> Believe as you wish, I'm not here to argue or be
> the expert ... my impressions come from
> doing, not talking... I'm relatively knew to rally
>this being the end of
> only my 29th year in the sport.
>
> Notes came about for several reasons, the big
> advantage came to under powered cars that took
> time to get up to speed, notes reaffirmed the
> drivers impression of the road and allowed the
> drivers to stay on the power longer and maintain
> speed.
>
> It is rather funny that with modern rally cars
> ability to get to speed so quickly drivers would
> be in-favor of notes

let me start out with saying i want to punch someone.

let me finish by saying stage notes let the faster cars know that a L3 Tightens into R3 minus over bridge... based upon your opinion a faster car would read the road and know about that bridge. uhh, hello? if you are a "slow" rally car or maybe even a historic rally car you might be able to see the bridge WAY before an overpowered car that takes less time to get up to speed and aproaches that bridge quicker.

bahh

brianallmotor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Believe as you wish, I'm not here to argue
> or be
> > the expert ... my impressions come from
> > doing, not talking... I'm relatively knew to
> rally
> >this being the end of
> > only my 29th year in the sport.
> >
> > Notes came about for several reasons, the
> big
> > advantage came to under powered cars that
> took
> > time to get up to speed, notes reaffirmed
> the
> > drivers impression of the road and allowed
> the
> > drivers to stay on the power longer and
> maintain
> > speed.
> >
> > It is rather funny that with modern rally
> cars
> > ability to get to speed so quickly drivers
> would
> > be in-favor of notes
>
> let me start out with saying i want to punch
> someone.
>
> let me finish by saying stage notes let the faster
> cars know that a L3 Tightens into R3 minus over
> bridge... based upon your opinion a faster car
> would read the road and know about that bridge.
> uhh, hello? if you are a "slow" rally car or
> maybe even a historic rally car you might be able
> to see the bridge WAY before an overpowered car
> that takes less time to get up to speed and
> aproaches that bridge quicker.
>
> bahh


You are in a slow car, and just like even Kenny and Travvie and Kenny and even the great unappreciated talent Keithie, you and they are significantly slower than the better old simple 2wd cars in the Finnish F-cup.

While you're fired up wanting to punch somebody-----(and I would suggest Keithie since he come here with his vast 4-5 years doing a few events in Canada and tells off a guy who has built and run cars which have won a Gp2 and a Gp5 national Championship title---back when there were TONS more well build 2wd cars---tells a person he has never met that he
"heard what you wanted to hear
- misunderstood what was being saying
- are taking their comments out of context." )
(And in an amazing lack of self reflection which characterizes all of his arrogant, abrasive, annoying, absurd assertions, he doesn't not quite realise that one could say the exact same things about whatever he writes and says---especially the bit about "Heard what you want to hear---that's Keith Morrison to a T!!!)

(Punch him for slandering people over on SS,com when he knows that the person cannot answer. If that's not the mark of a real scum bag, a totally corrupt, amoral character then I don't know what is.)

look up how the so called fastest guys do with even Pace Notes and completely extravagant levels of support and spending when they venture anywhere with any depth to the entries eg PWRC.
Next look up the guys who are finishing 35 to 55 minutes ahead of them,
then look up how those guys do when at home on familiar roads vs the F-cup cars..

You'll see that there are plenty of F-cup cars as fast as the world elite in PWRC, and those F-cup guys are on route books.

And that means there are piles of simple 2wd F-cup guys 20-25% faster than Travvie and they are faster than you.

Thus if the guys who are that fast in Finland CAN drive so much faster than Kennie and Travvie without notes, then why is it so vital for your driver?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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