Maybe its confidence. Tracks mostly mental. Once your strong enough and in shape, its all mental. Theres obviously a huge [physical] barrier to jump from collegiate to olympic level, but a lot of sprinting is mental. I'm sure motocross was like that too. If something makes you THINK you'll do better, it usually helps. Same concept as placebos.

Or the notes COULD be helping. I dunno. But it might very well be all in the head.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Not sure why, but I thought this was a place for open discussion, I resisted joining here for the longest time because I rarely saw discussions of intrest, but I finally bit the bullet on this one because there was promise for it being a valuable discussion.

Then: Mr Tennis, when asked WHY he suggested my impressions were wrong, name drops and doesn't say anything else about his years of experience. I tried to dig for a discussion on the point ...

Next, johnnie launches into one of his patented vitriolic rants to defend his buddy and make himself feel all superior (which, I suppose, is why this forum exists in the first place.)


john vanlandingham Wrote:

> I would suggest Keithie since he
> come here with his vast 4-5 years doing a few
> events in Canada and tells off a guy who has built
> and run cars which have won a Gp2 and a Gp5
> national Championship title

Note that when Mr. Tennis simply picked a point of mine and told me I was wrong all I did was ask him why he thought I was wrong. His answer to that was rather empty and certainly didn't betray his years and years of experience.

> he doesn't not quite realise that one could say the exact same things
> about whatever he writes and says---especially the bit about "Heard what you > want to hear---that's Keith Morrison to a T!!!)

OK, Thanks for at least showing that you don't know squat about me.

I was trying to bring in to this discussion a perspective from someone who competes in an area that has run almost exclusively pace notes events for the past 5 seasons. My observations are based on real world experience (same driver, same car, same road same conditions, same fawkin day!)

BUT, Let's go back to the reason I waded into this in the first place.

"Does anyone think that the notes provided today are a real benefit versus tulips? Can any driver say that they aren't sight driving 99.9% of the time? ... To me the numbering system is pointless."

In my DIRECT experience I have seen that committing to your own pace notes (generated with 2 pass recce) IS worth about 3 seconds per mile. Jemba is somewhat less than that followed by organiser notes depending on who wrote them. I've never run Jemba with a single fam pass so I don't know how much the confidence comes up with the addition of recce.

Again, in my direct experience, if the driver is given enough lead on the information to hear the note, read the road, and process that the road is going to do what they heard it was going to do, they are going to be slower than if they are fed info when they need it and do what they are told and focus on the road conditions and the unexpected.

I also know that more often than not, if I miss calling a "+" or a "-" on a corner (which for us is an intermediate grading, not a modifier for attack or retreat) my driver usually will tell me to add the modifier I've dropped out (even on the first pass on Jemba.) (Yes, I'm admitting to making mistakes, getting lost and missing parts of calls)

So ... back to the point:
Yes, Notes provide a measurable benefit
No, the fast drivers (relative to the field) are committed to the notes and are NOT 'sight driving' (although clearly they ARE looking where they are driving)
Numbering systems have good value and, with experience, you CAN recognise more than 6 grades of corners in the forests.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 04:42AM by Morison.

brianallmotor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > > ...most US drivers don't have enough
> > experience period reading the road, notes are
> a
> > waste of time...
> > Notes are intended to reaffirm what the
> driver
> > believes he sees the road doing .
>
> so when i tell my driver 300 flat over crest 50
> caution brake right three...
>
> my driver is supposed to read the road and know
> that after this long straight just over that tiny
> hill that there is a sharp right hand turn????
> WTF

I would hope that if you are in a fast car that your note will not read "300 flat over crest 50 caution right three."
In my car on loose gravel 300 for a flat crest would land me in the scenery well beyond that right three! It is up to the team of driver and co-driver to reshape the notes provided where appropriate.

I don't have enough experience with notes to have a strong opinion either way.
On roads I'm familiar with I am just fine with tulips; particularly here in the NorthWest where I pretty well know that the organizers will not leave out big Gotchas.

Jason is very comfprtable with notes and is a big help for me.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe its confidence. Tracks mostly mental. Once
> your strong enough and in shape, its all mental.
> Theres obviously a huge barrier to jump from
> collegiate to olympic level, but a lot of
> sprinting is mental. I'm sure motocross was like
> that too. If something makes you THINK you'll do
> better, it usually helps. Same concept as
> placebos.


You are onto something there. Several times I have heard, read or spoken to high level furriners, you know guys that get paid to do this who maybe know something and i recall a couple saying words to the effect of 'You can't possibly catch all the info coming at the speed we're going (which jives with what I know doing moto-cross at the same level we're talking about. NO way could I be processing little things like noise, or pain when a tennis ball sized rock whacks you, or you dent the tank with your nuts,), but you have a good feel for HOW MUCH stuff is coming just by how much the co-driver is talking. If he's talking fast fast then there's lots to look out for....

Just on note though. Although mental strength, enough to supress everything save a few inputs, and a few outputs, is the difference at the highest levels, and a factor at all levels, unlike many many simpler sports, there IS a fairly large amount of skills that musty be executed correctly and often precisely.
Ie if you don't gas it fully and hold it on, then somebody or 10 blow by you.
You don't shift exactly at the right time for max "Axx", every time, somebody or a 3 blows by you. You make a mistake in when or how much you can hold it on at the end of a straight, and back off a wee bit, a 1/2 second early, the I would blow by you and get 5 bike lengths on you. You don't brake HARD, and the next guys do, they're by you.

Now aquiring those skills took years of frequent training, just the gaasing it part took about 2 years of conentrated effort, the BRAKING took 3 years of systematic, several times a week riding and JUST braking for to begin with the first turn, then maybe the second turn.


The difference was, Tim that there were no illusions about how "good" or actually bad we were IN COMPARISON to BROADER STANDARDS. There was no way to keep our heads in the mud (did a lot of that) and pretend whatever we were doing was "Fast".
There was only "A förare" (A drivers) and 'B påsar' which is B sacks (as in sacks of shit) because the better driving was all around to be seen, we had the fawkin yardstick cracked over our heads daily.

So we knew we must improve our basic driving skills, train sharper reactions (play ping pong with killer Swedes! Oh! My! GAWD!, they'll rip you apart as much as Chinese).

Remember, I shared garage with guys in the top 4 in Swedish Championship, and trained on the same tracks , same time as several guys who could win 250 Moto+cross Grand Prix, who finished as high as 2nd in 250 VM, and another who went on to win both 250 and 500 World Championship. We trained physical strength and endurance crap at the high school down the street from my place with these same animals.

WE HAD EXAMPLES OF WHAT FASTER, and BETTER and STRONGER in our face 2 to4 times a week for YEARS.
>
> Or the notes COULD be helping. I dunno. But it
> might very well be all in the head.


Well we were very VERY aware of how important confidence was within the different skill levels. If I found I was outbraking guys, I was almost mean pushing harder and harder and trying to make it CLEAR that "Resistance is futile!" by outbraking them dramatically when passing ie pass within´their sight so they knew they just got nailed during practice. No time for that nonsense during events.
>
> Feisty Peacock?

Timmy, this idea that we SHOULD be aware of BROADER standards is what the idea behind the comparisons I make behind our extremely modest speed RELATIVE to other humans in other places if we want to motivate ourselves to try and keep trying to improve OURSELVES, rather than just buying more and fancier equipment.

There was not really an excuse earlier, but now we can just watch in-car from dozens and dozens of F-cup or GruppH cars and SEE the rate of those trees whipping by and see that they're driving harder and faster than the not very sharp sharp end of the stick.

And that should motivate us, and give us confidence taht EVENTUALLY, we could do the same.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

2 attacks in a week, change your meds John??

Kieth is an experienced navvie , who unlike many of the participants in this 'discussion' has actually used notes. He is not amoral, scummish, abrasive, arrogant or any of your descriptives. You can't communicate with him on SS because of YOUR behavior, not his.

Building cars 20 years ago has no germaine relationship to this discussion. Not competing for years and years and never competing on notes has no real value in a discussion on notes. I've done both and have no basis to start an argument over notes, why do you John???

Nobody gives a rat's ass about the superhuman Finnish guys, you know the ones who run the same roads dozens of times a year and still manage to pile 6 cars off the same easy corner in a farmers fields. Funny how ACP, PatR, Dedo, Pinker and the real Stig, who all have real world experience, don't actually make monkeys of Travis and Ken.

Reading the road beyond the ENTRANCE of the next visable corner or crest is bullshit. You cannot trust a treeline. You cannot trust a road built on mother natures chaotic designs. And you sure can't trust a non-Barker route book. I've wrecked a car at 100 mph because of a poorly written route book and a change of road. I know damn well I can read a road as well as anybody here, and so could my co-driver at the time.

Often times route books have been done by old TSD guys, who have never been in a performance rally car, never been at speed on a gravel road, never slid for 30 yards sideways, never been upside down. Hell some of those route books have been written from Jeeps and pickups. That take air crest at 80mph isn't even visable at 25mph from a SUV.

Learning to hear notes is easy, play Colin McRae for a few hours. The info gets pretty clear with a little training. Even an old derelict like myself can pick it up. If a chimp can pilot a space ship you could certainly learn notes.

I could drive pretty fast on familiar Grays Harbor roads with a Barker route book, not so much on Oregon roads that I know nothing about. I would definitely value notes and a co-driver (either Alan or Kieth) who used them.

Wake up John...Everything in any sport is about beating the other guy. Doesn't matter whether it's checkers or F1. People instinctively do everything they can to excell. Lighter jockies, steadier aim, cork filled baseball bats. Notes, turbos, big cams, short gears, rally tires, SooperBithchin suspension, AWD are all done with the hopes of beating someone else. If it was truly mano e mano there would be a rule about using Geo Metros on street tires with stock shocks and no skid plates.

I find notes to be fun from both seats in the car and honestly it gives makes for a more fun experience in my opinion. And yes, I've codriven and driven in rallies with and without notes. I'll always prefer notes because it's more fun. Regardless of notes or no notes it's all about the balls in the long run anyhow. Here's one of my favorite videos from my roommate Mark. He owns a intercom, but doesn't feel like putting it in so he's been running with virtually no codriver for the past two years.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Subaru-WRX-Rally-In-Car_145491.htm
Impreza with stock 2.2T intercooled on DMS 50s. No diffs.

---

Grant Hughes

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 attacks in a week, change your meds John??
>
> Kieth is an experienced navvie , who unlike many
> of the participants in this 'discussion' has
> actually used notes. He is not amoral, scummish,
> abrasive, arrogant or any of your descriptives.
> You can't communicate with him on SS because of
> YOUR behavior, not his.
>
> Building cars 20 years ago has no germaine
> relationship to this discussion. Not competing for
> years and years and never competing on notes has
> no real value in a discussion on notes. I've done
> both and have no basis to start an argument over
> notes, why do you John???
>
> Nobody gives a rat's ass about the superhuman
> Finnish guys, you know the ones who run the same
> roads dozens of times a year and still manage to
> pile 6 cars off the same easy corner in a farmers
> fields. Funny how ACP, PatR, Dedo, Pinker and the
> real Stig, who all have real world experience,
> don't actually make monkeys of Travis and Ken.
>
> Reading the road beyond the ENTRANCE of the next
> visable corner or crest is bullshit. You cannot
> trust a treeline. You cannot trust a road built on
> mother natures chaotic designs. And you sure can't
> trust a non-Barker route book. I've wrecked a car
> at 100 mph because of a poorly written route book
> and a change of road. I know damn well I can read
> a road as well as anybody here, and so could my
> co-driver at the time.
>
> Often times route books have been done by old TSD
> guys, who have never been in a performance rally
> car, never been at speed on a gravel road, never
> slid for 30 yards sideways, never been upside
> down. Hell some of those route books have been
> written from Jeeps and pickups. That take air
> crest at 80mph isn't even visable at 25mph from a
> SUV.
>
> Learning to hear notes is easy, play Colin McRae
> for a few hours. The info gets pretty clear with a
> little training. Even an old derelict like myself
> can pick it up. If a chimp can pilot a space ship
> you could certainly learn notes.
>
> I could drive pretty fast on familiar Grays Harbor
> roads with a Barker route book, not so much on
> Oregon roads that I know nothing about. I would
> definitely value notes and a co-driver (either
> Alan or Kieth) who used them.
>
> Wake up John...Everything in any sport is about
> beating the other guy. Doesn't matter whether it's
> checkers or F1. People instinctively do everything
> they can to excell. Lighter jockies, steadier aim,
> cork filled baseball bats. Notes, turbos, big
> cams, short gears, rally tires, SooperBithchin
> suspension, AWD are all done with the hopes of
> beating someone else. If it was truly mano e mano
> there would be a rule about using Geo Metros on
> street tires with stock shocks and no skid
> plates.
>
>
Gees Gene, how many cups of coffee have you had ... and sounds to me like you need to work on concentration, if you could drive half as good as argue and fling BS -- you'd be twice as good as the half as good you are! LOL!

And yes drivers begin to get a feel for a road, but there are gotcha's, and those to come with experience ... and experience is the big thing, something that a few weekends a year doesn't provide ... Which is why, in my opinion, North America will suffer when it comes to breeding top drivers.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Often times route books have been done by old TSD
> guys, who have never been in a performance rally
> car, never been at speed on a gravel road, never
> slid for 30 yards sideways, never been upside
> down. Hell some of those route books have been
> written from Jeeps and pickups. That take air
> crest at 80mph isn't even visable at 25mph from a
> SUV.
Never a truer statement made. At events in Paris at Camp Maxey, one of the instructions used to be "turn at tree". Camp Maxey is in a forest for Pete's sake. There are so many trees you can't see the forest.

---

RichardM

SEANT Wrote:
> ... and experience is the big thing,
> something that a few weekends a year doesn't
> provide ... Which is why, in my opinion, North
> America will suffer when it comes to breeding top
> drivers.

Couldn't agree more with this - and this is the biggest reason that making comparisons to F-Cup and other yurpeens is a red herring. (IE: of course NA drivers are, for the most part, inherently slower since they don't have he culture or event infrastructure that is found in Europe, particularly Finland)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

JohnLane Wrote:
> In my car on loose gravel 300 for a flat crest
> would land me in the scenery well beyond that
> right three! It is up to the team of driver and
> co-driver to reshape the notes provided where
> appropriate.

Absolutely the notes need to be massaged for the team, but (for example) Jemba would not use 'flat over crest' and it would be a team generated pace note that would read like that.

The problem isn't the 300, it is the flat AND, IMHO, the placement of the caution.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 2 attacks in a week, change your meds John??
> >
> > Kieth is an experienced navvie , who unlike
> many
> > of the participants in this 'discussion' has
> > actually used notes. He is not amoral,
> scummish,
> > abrasive, arrogant or any of your
> descriptives.
> > You can't communicate with him on SS because
> of
> > YOUR behavior, not his.
> >
> > Building cars 20 years ago has no germaine
> > relationship to this discussion. Not
> competing for
> > years and years and never competing on notes
> has
> > no real value in a discussion on notes. I've
> done
> > both and have no basis to start an argument
> over
> > notes, why do you John???
> >
> > Nobody gives a rat's ass about the
> superhuman
> > Finnish guys, you know the ones who run the
> same
> > roads dozens of times a year and still manage
> to
> > pile 6 cars off the same easy corner in a
> farmers
> > fields. Funny how ACP, PatR, Dedo, Pinker and
> the
> > real Stig, who all have real world
> experience,
> > don't actually make monkeys of Travis and
> Ken.
> >
> > Reading the road beyond the ENTRANCE of the
> next
> > visable corner or crest is bullshit. You
> cannot
> > trust a treeline. You cannot trust a road
> built on
> > mother natures chaotic designs. And you sure
> can't
> > trust a non-Barker route book. I've wrecked a
> car
> > at 100 mph because of a poorly written route
> book
> > and a change of road. I know damn well I can
> read
> > a road as well as anybody here, and so could
> my
> > co-driver at the time.
> >
> > Often times route books have been done by old
> TSD
> > guys, who have never been in a performance
> rally
> > car, never been at speed on a gravel road,
> never
> > slid for 30 yards sideways, never been
> upside
> > down. Hell some of those route books have
> been
> > written from Jeeps and pickups. That take
> air
> > crest at 80mph isn't even visable at 25mph
> from a
> > SUV.
> >
> > Learning to hear notes is easy, play Colin
> McRae
> > for a few hours. The info gets pretty clear
> with a
> > little training. Even an old derelict like
> myself
> > can pick it up. If a chimp can pilot a space
> ship
> > you could certainly learn notes.
> >
> > I could drive pretty fast on familiar Grays
> Harbor
> > roads with a Barker route book, not so much
> on
> > Oregon roads that I know nothing about. I
> would
> > definitely value notes and a co-driver
> (either
> > Alan or Kieth) who used them.
> >
> > Wake up John...Everything in any sport is
> about
> > beating the other guy. Doesn't matter whether
> it's
> > checkers or F1. People instinctively do
> everything
> > they can to excell. Lighter jockies, steadier
> aim,
> > cork filled baseball bats. Notes, turbos,
> big
> > cams, short gears, rally tires,
> SooperBithchin
> > suspension, AWD are all done with the hopes
> of
> > beating someone else. If it was truly mano e
> mano
> > there would be a rule about using Geo Metros
> on
> > street tires with stock shocks and no skid
> > plates.
> >
> >
> Gees Gene, how many cups of coffee have you had
> ... and sounds to me like you need to work on
> concentration, if you could drive half as good as
> argue and fling BS -- you'd be twice as good as
> the half as good you are! LOL!
>
> And yes drivers begin to get a feel for a road,
> but there are gotcha's, and those to come with
> experience ... and experience is the big thing,
> something that a few weekends a year doesn't
> provide ... Which is why, in my opinion, North
> America will suffer when it comes to breeding top
> drivers.
>
>
>
> As always IMHO
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850

I'm just a rank amatuer in BS flinging compared to you and John....

Yes indeed experience is key and we'll never get enough due to lack of events and high costs. I've yet to see anyone in the states claim to be up to Finnish, Irish or any Euro standard. Notes seem to make up for a lot of inexperience. I don't recall any competitors who have actually run on notes complain about anything other than the cost.

>
> I'm just a rank amatuer in BS flinging compared
> to you and John....

Keep practicing, you'll get there, your recent push is showing excellent promise!
>
> Yes indeed experience is key and we'll never get
> enough due to lack of events and high costs. I've
> yet to see anyone in the states claim to be up to
> Finnish, Irish or any Euro standard. Notes seem to
> make up for a lot of inexperience. I don't recall
> any competitors who have actually run on notes
> complain about anything other than the cost.
>

Interesting comment, I have a very good friend in Dublin I've visited and attended rallies with in several location in this world.

A few years ago he made a comment regarding the speed regarding fellow Irish rallist: "Freddy Loix was here over the past weekend running an event for team experience if the future holds WRC event in Ireland" (remember this is a few years ago). "Freddy is a good driver, very good -- but is only a 2ND driver for the teams, he can't seem to make the jump to number 1 driver, so he is not the best. It was pitiful to see him back off and take it easy after getting a 10 minute lead. Our top drivers are that far off the pace of WRC competition and we have more ex-factory WRCars here in Ireland then any other country ..."

I agree regarding folks not complaining for the most part -- however there are complaints, as we see here, as to how notes should be done. There seems to be a push to more time being spent to do individual team pace notes, if only the time and money I guess ... I'd rather see costs come down and more events, however there is far less chance of that happening then pace notes! Maybe the economy will change that perspective.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
>I'd rather see costs come down and more events, however there is far less chance
> of that happening then pace notes! Maybe the
> economy will change that perspective.

The problem is that if you add up teh cash outlay for recce over a half dozen events, you might cover the entry fee for one more event, but not the operating costs for competing in the event.
ALso, when we look at 'more events' don't forget that we need the roads, organisers and workers to make the extra events happen and, at least in my area, that is a lot easier said than done.

Of course ther is the other tangent here of recce NOT costing money in the long run because of the reduced numbers of acccidents from true 'gotchas.'

The experience with Western Canadian events has been more entries and fewer accidents since moving to 2-pass recce...

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I'm certainly out of my league in terms of actual driving experience, when compared to some of the other people posting / commenting on this thread, having only entered 3 stage rallies.

I found during my first rally that I was sight driving alot, because it seemed foreign to fully trust another person to direct how I accelerated, turned the wheel, brake, etc... It's alot of trust and different from what I had been used to for the previous 20+ years of street driving.

At least so I thought, until reviewing the in car video. We had one almost "off" on Helmer (stage in Merritt BC), and I thought I had made an incorrect decision while sight driving when in actual fact my co-driver had made the wrong call. This showed me that eventhough I thought I was completely sight driving on my first rally, in actual fact I wasn't.

On my 2nd rally we arrived later in the day and only had enough time to recce roughly 1/2 of the stages. The stage times we set when compared to other teams who had recce'd all the stages were noticably faster on the one's we had recce'd.

Yes recce / notes have in my experience made us faster, probably due to the fact that we have actual reference we trust.

Anyone who's driven off a route book without a recce knows that it's far from absolute. It's pretty good but certinly not perfect.

I enjoy pace notes, but sometimes it's exciting to drive fast down a road you've never been on relying only on a route book.

At the end of the day we all try to be as fast as we can be (safely) given the information we have to drive by, the rest is personal preference IMHO.

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'm just a rank amatuer in BS flinging
> compared
> > to you and John....
>
> Keep practicing, you'll get there, your recent
> push is showing excellent promise!
> >
> > Yes indeed experience is key and we'll never
> get
> > enough due to lack of events and high costs.
> I've
> > yet to see anyone in the states claim to be
> up to
> > Finnish, Irish or any Euro standard. Notes
> seem to
> > make up for a lot of inexperience. I don't
> recall
> > any competitors who have actually run on
> notes
> > complain about anything other than the cost.
> >
>
> Interesting comment, I have a very good friend
> in Dublin I've visited and attended rallies with
> in several location in this world.
>
> A few years ago he made a comment regarding the
> speed regarding fellow Irish rallist: "Freddy Loix
> was here over the past weekend running an event
> for team experience if the future holds WRC event
> in Ireland" (remember this is a few years ago).
> "Freddy is a good driver, very good -- but is only
> a 2ND driver for the teams, he can't seem to make
> the jump to number 1 driver, so he is not the
> best. It was pitiful to see him back off and take
> it easy after getting a 10 minute lead. Our top
> drivers are that far off the pace of WRC
> competition and we have more ex-factory WRCars
> here in Ireland then any other country ..."
>
> I agree regarding folks not complaining for the
> most part -- however there are complaints, as we
> see here, as to how notes should be done. There
> seems to be a push to more time being spent to do
> individual team pace notes, if only the time and
> money I guess ... I'd rather see costs come down
> and more events, however there is far less chance
> of that happening then pace notes! Maybe the
> economy will change that perspective.
>
>
>
>
> As always IMHO
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850


So here are some issues that we hear from the organizer end ( and this is not to imply I have any answers ) :

1: I woon't do an event without recce
2: I don't have an extra day off to do recce
3; I only do events with notes
4: We don't need notes

And so on. Herding cats is easier I'm tellin ya.

We could go do as the RallyMoto(tm) guys and offer only arrows for stages. No route book.

Seriously, many grass roots teams have no time nor budget for recce. many landowners won't allow recce. Idaho Rally a couple years ago our own Chris Blakey and Ian Pinter made their own notes from the same recce vehicle. Disaster befell both on the same corner from the same poorly ( in retrospect) notes(theirs). Or so I seem to remember.

Route books are very inconsistant. There is no real standard to hold them to. I remember one guy back in the day who always wrote "caution rough" while doing the books. He had a bad back and worn suspension on his vehicle. We never even noticed the "caution rough" in competition. Usually when noted in the route book we sped up hoping someone else would believe the caution. Stage notes( Jemba) provide a more consistant measure of reliability and consistancy. They would provide a basis for teams to learn to interprit notes and a standard to write their own to. Stage notes is really a natural progression of the sport.

So this Olympus for example, Saturdays events is on the Quinault reservation. Recce has to be chaparoned. Sundays event uses county roads, recce again chaparoned but not because organizer rules not law or landowners. These 2 locations are over miles apart or so. Recce will be all day Friday and may not include all stages. Since tech and reg is also on Friday this will require someone taking the car thru tech while someone else does the recce in a different vehicle ( prolly not the service van ) It does get expensive and logistics nightmare for some teams.

There is no easy answer to the cost of the sport. We just saw a 27 car field at DooWops. Simply terrible. No notes, low entry fee (350 for 2 days of actual rally not a rally sprint), easy layout, great roads. Every effort to keep the event easy, affordable, fun and grass roots. Lots of work involved and one of the highest regarded stand alone regionals and no support. I never eeven put in an expense claim. Michel Hoche and Pete Soper came up from California to work ( extreme thanks btw) AND thanks to JVL and Robert Gobright for working also. Anyway it made no money, although it didn't lose any. This btw is was the last Damitio DooWop. Provisions have been made to possibly continue it in the future with a different organizer. More on that as it developes...