Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
> >I'd rather see costs come down and more
> events, however there is far less chance
> > of that happening then pace notes! Maybe the
> > economy will change that perspective.
>
> The problem is that if you add up teh cash outlay
> for recce over a half dozen events, you might
> cover the entry fee for one more event, but not
> the operating costs for competing in the event.
> ALso, when we look at 'more events' don't forget
> that we need the roads, organisers and workers to
> make the extra events happen and, at least in my
> area, that is a lot easier said than done.

The problem here maybe the difference in costs between US and Canada, I don't know -- been a few years since I've been north. I would rather have the cost to enter another event as in the US that could be $600-$800, no small chunk of change in my book -- my broken body can from manual labor and I do understand the value of a dollar ... Recce in most cases requires more time off work and another nights stay in hotel for most folks. Of course there are ways around this depending on event location and length, but there is still an increase in expense.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Glad to see that Gene and Keith have stepped in to make the points that I would have made.

This week I am a single parent for spring break week while my wife is down in California visiting friends, so I don't really have time to post here ...

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Glad to see that Gene and Keith have stepped in
> to make the points that I would have made.
>
> This week I am a single parent for spring break
> week while my wife is down in California visiting
> friends, so I don't really have time to post here
> ...
>
> alan
>
>

Don't forget to keep the darks seperate, feed the cat and Cheerios is not really dinner.

we'll see how the "Noted" people run through Palix on sunday of olympus.

note that the heavier gravel was cleared on pass one.

---

"I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane
http://CraneRallyCrew.com
corolla gt-s "Patches"
Op: S.S.

I think doing more with less is cool so I like route book only. I think its more of a challenge and more true to what I feel is the basis of rally. I still seem to be able to keep up with the guys in my class, even though they're running notes.

Carl S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think doing more with less is cool so I like
> route book only. I think its more of a challenge
> and more true to what I feel is the basis of
> rally. I still seem to be able to keep up with
> the guys in my class, even though they're running
> notes.

That is a good assessment.
But you aren't trying to fool anybody, and you aren't fixated with "IMAGE!!!" or you would be in some blue turbo 4wd thing.
And maybe not driving any faster.

Robert and I were yapping about this very concept of doing more with less, and more generally about voluntarily accepting some clear limitations just to make the competition HARDER, like the way many of us have embraced the challenge of going as fast as we can---however fast that is---in 2wd cars.

It could be an interesting cultural discussion like this was before people with their own obvious agenda came and started telling people

Quote

"I'd suggest, in that case, that you:
- heard what you wanted to hear
- misunderstood what was being saying
- are taking their comments out of context.

which effectively dismisses any other opinions.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

So I think there are 2 different thoughts going on....

Do notes make you faster or possibly safer? I'd say the potential for both is there so yes or at least should.

Are notes necessary? Answer should be obvious as hell..No! They are not.

Personally I wouldn't spend the money. I have it but I'm old and just don't care enough to try that hard. I enjoy the sensation of sliding, don't need notes for that. I'd rather see beginners on new tires.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I think there are 2 different thoughts going
> on....
>
> Do notes make you faster or possibly safer? I'd
> say the potential for both is there so yes or at
> least should.
>
> Are notes necessary? Answer should be obvious as
> hell..No! They are not.
>
> Personally I wouldn't spend the money. I have it
> but I'm old and just don't care enough to try that
> hard. I enjoy the sensation of sliding, don't need
> notes for that. I'd rather see beginners on new
> tires.

Seee!!!???

Exactly.
They're not NEEDED , especially with the low level of expericence and speed of all of us even old Dinos who've done this stuff for years regardless of what mere co-drivers----inarguably the most persistant and LOUDEST claimants to the necessity of Notes, recce etc.

More honest co-drivers have openly admitted that "I like 'em cause I feel I'm doing more for the team".

I'll admit that I sure as hell liked the times that we used good maps, but I readilt admit I'm a big weenie with doing above 85mph and I know how much it helps to be told "FLAT!" for some kink I can't see around cuase I can well leave it flat and that helps in a relatively underpowered car (relative to turbo cars).
I have records on same stage on chewed tires the 2nd and especially 3rd time through ---on even MORE chewed tires---what a HUGE SPEED ADVANTAGE knowing what's coming is in comfirming what I feel is a kink really is a little kink

But the INSISTANCE, the whining "I won't do an event without...." and especially blantant agendas screaming "UNIFORMITY!!!" well that sucks.
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I don't have time to get into this, but ...

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It could be an interesting cultural discussion
> like this was before people with their own obvious
> agenda came and started telling people:
>"I'd suggest, in that case, that you:
> - heard what you wanted to hear
> - misunderstood what was being saying
> - are taking their comments out of context."
> which effectively dismisses any other opinions.

To be fair, these comments were made in response to someone attributing meaning to something someone else said. None of the rest of us were there, so we don't know what was really said. We just have the one interpretation presented here.

Most people hear what people tell them through the filter of their own experience and opinion.

As far as people "with their own obvious agenda", by your reasoning, every poster in this thread has an agenda. It could be an interesting cultural discussion to get into why it having and expressing an opinion is now considering pushing an agenda.

As far as "more of a challenge and more true to what I feel is the basis of rally", earlier in this thread, I said that this was arguments in this discussion lead to a fundamental "what is rally" question. It is almost a religious discussion.

Stage notes and pace notes are not easier than routebook. They are different skills.

If you don't like stage notes or pace notes, then don't use them and save the time and money.

Carl S Wrote:
> I still seem to be able to keep up with the guys in my class, even though they're running notes.

But that isn't the point of it is it?

Do you compete in rally to just beat the people in your class or do you compete to push, and therefor grow, YOUR talent/skill and car to the edge of your potential?

Doing more with less is always fun. Beating 80% (or more) of the open class field with a PGT wrx is a blast! BUT, at some point don't you want to make sure you're bringing a knife to a knife fight not a gun fight?

The beauty of not grabbing the advantages your competition do is that you can easily sit back and use them to explain your loss."Yah, I came third in my class but the other guys were running notes and I didn't and they didn't beat me by much so I still kinda won." (NOTE: I am NOT pointing at you or anyone in particular when I say that)

Perhaps one of the factors that keeps us than the europeans is that, collectively, we get content with being the fastest around rather than actually finding the limits of the car and oursleves. Some delude themselves with stage wins or near stage wins when the reality is that the top of the field has stopped pushing. I learned early on that you need to fully understand WHY your stage time was good to get anything out of it.

I am confident in saying that if YOU ran Jemba enough to get comfortable with it, and began committing to it, you would see a pace increase of about 2sec/mile as a minimum.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> It could be an interesting cultural discussion
> like this was before people with their own obvious
> agenda came and started telling peopleQuote:"I'd
> suggest, in that case, that you:
> - heard what you wanted to hear
> - misunderstood what was being saying
> - are taking their comments out of context.
> which effectively dismisses any other opinions.

John, When you set this forum up maybe you should have been clearer that people with differing experiences and opinions needn't bother expressing them. You seem singularly focused on my comments above yet you completely dismiss the context or reason I said what I did. I've addressed it already, so I won't bother again except to say that I was trying to EXTRACT an intelligent dialogue on the subject while also defending my position which was initially dismissed, without comment, by Mr. Tennis.

I am a bit curious about what my 'obvious agenda' is ... cause I don't know what it is myself.

(Unless by agenda you mean sharing my opinions and experience gained through real world rallying and testing with stage notes and pace notes)

If you want to talk about obvious agendas ... that is easily seen when you answer the question of "do notes make you faster" with "you don't need notes."

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2009 12:12PM by Morison.

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I don't have time to get into this, but ...
>
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It could be an interesting cultural
> discussion
> > like this was before people with their own
> obvious
> > agenda came and started telling people:
> >"I'd suggest, in that case, that you:
> > - heard what you wanted to hear
> > - misunderstood what was being saying
> > - are taking their comments out of context."
> > which effectively dismisses any other
> opinions.
>
> To be fair, these comments were made in response
> to someone attributing meaning to something
> someone else said. None of the rest of us were
> there, so we don't know what was really said. We
> just have the one interpretation presented here.
>
> Most people hear what people tell them through the
> filter of their own experience and opinion.

Alan, I take offense to what you said here, there were other people present that heard the conversations. You, and I do mean "you" are pushing an agenda by trying to discount what I said, which was a question solicited for response, that fact that the response did not get the expected answer seems to be a problem and therefore is trying to be discounted or discredited! The question not being asked but implied was "should stage notes be dropped in favor of 3 pass recce"!
>
> As far as people "with their own obvious agenda",
> by your reasoning, every poster in this thread has
> an agenda. It could be an interesting cultural
> discussion to get into why it having and
> expressing an opinion is now considering pushing
> an agenda.
>
> As far as "more of a challenge and more true to
> what I feel is the basis of rally", earlier in
> this thread, I said that this was arguments in
> this discussion lead to a fundamental "what is
> rally" question. It is almost a religious
> discussion.
>
> Stage notes and pace notes are not easier than
> routebook. They are different skills.

No they are a continuation of the fundamental skills of rally driving ...
>
> If you don't like stage notes or pace notes, then
> don't use them and save the time and money.
>
It is obvious by this statement that discussion has broken down and minds have closed, it's a shame this is what happens in such a small community as we rally folks are on this continent.

Go back and re-read the thread from the beginning, it is very interesting to see what is going on. I made a early comment about basic skills and many agreed, that hasn't change. I feel, and I think many do -- that we would not even have this kind of discussion if there was many more events for us to run an improve our abilities. However there isn't and therefore we suffer and spend time trying to do something in the sport by getting on line, when if there was more events we would be preparing for those events instead. Then we would all be up for many different types of rally, blind, notes & pace -- now that would be a great!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And you sure can't
> trust a non-Barker route book.
>
>

you are god damn right.

---

-Tom
DemonRallyTeam | Fine Tuning | CTS Turbo & RP Turbos | RalleyTuned | JRM | Meister Autowerks
Spitfire EFI | Product Apparel | JVAB Imports | NLS | AP Tuning | USRT

Add us on Facebook | Next Event: 2013 Olympus Rally June 22-23 Olympia, WA

Westwick route books are pretty damned good.

Tom B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And you sure can't
> > trust a non-Barker route book.
> >
> >
>
> you are god damn right.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> _________
> Fine Tuning | DemonRally
>
> "If everything seems under control, you're just
> not going fast enough." -- Mario Andretti
>
>

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Westwick route books are pretty damned good.
>
> Tom B Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > And you sure can't
> > > trust a non-Barker route book.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > you are god damn right.
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
>
> > _________
> > Fine Tuning | DemonRally
> >
> > "If everything seems under control, you're
> just
> > not going fast enough." -- Mario Andretti
> >
> >
>
>
>
So drag your butt down here for Olympus and compare them