Banned Professional Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
John Vanlandingham Mega Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
SEAN TENNIS Elite Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Banned Infallible Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
john vanlandingham Wrote:
> You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Takes one to know own I guess. > You labor under some preconcieved idea that I set this forum up, which is totally idiotic. I stand corrected and apologise for running with the assumption. > we also know you have approximately 5 years total involvement in rally. Perhaps splitting hairs, but I'm just over 7 years invlolved in rally and involved to a degree that not many get involved at. > We can agree to discuss, and if we don't agree after honest and viagra-ous discussion the as the say in California, "Like whatever, dooood". To do so you'd HAVE to agree to not dismiss opinions from people who happen to compete in blue turbo awd cars. > But YOU had no idea who you were talking with. That is absolutely correct, and I don't know that I need to apologize for that either. I don;t expect Sean, or anyone, to know who I am either which is why Im more than willing to say how I have developed my opinions. > So you, full of your bloated self-importance decided without knowing anything of who he was, who and in WHAT CONTEXT he had iunteracted with these guys, that he: Hang on there Pardner. a quick redux of the back and forth. Morison - " if you're using notes to confirm the road you're seeing, you're using them wrong." Tennis - "Sorry but this statement is incorrect! " Morison - "I am curious on what you base your humble opinion." (a play on his signiature) Tennis - "Conversations with John Buffum, Stig Bloomquist and the firmest believer in pace notes I've ever talked too, Erik Carlsson ... " Morison - " I'd suggest, in that case, that you: - heard what you wanted to hear - misunderstood what was being saying - are taking their comments out of context. Admittedly, I haven't talked to any of these knowledgeable or respected people on the subject so maybe your interpretation is a fair representation of their thoughts ..." You chose to jump on me for the three points yet you conveniently ignore that I immediately opened the door for further clarification/enlightenment from Sean and openly admitted that his interpretation of the converstations was right. It remains that I disagree with Sean's position that Notes are best used to confirm the road reading the driver is doing. > Do you realise that that sort of mistrust of another's own understanding implies that you MUST KNOW BETTER what the speaker intended to say? > Do you understand that saying he must have "misundertood what was being said" again presumes that you can conclude better--since you reject whatever conclusion about a converstaion he had--which you know nothing aout. Bullshit John, pure bullshit. I sad what I said because Sean said, while offering little in the way of support, that I was wrong about one of my observations that I KNOW, from direct experience, to be true. > Hey skip this Mr Tennis bullshit, Consider it skipped. > Your massively insulting dismaisssal of somebody with broader and longer continuous contacts with people better and faster than you will no be patched over by some bullshit attempt at a tone of propriety. Whatever. I didn't dismiss the man, or his experience, just his position on the use of notes, > You know your position as well as I: rally needs to imitate "The Big Boys" and by imitating some imaginary conception of what you think is what makes "The Big Boys" successful that joy, happiness and higher speeds will somehow follow. Gee, thanks for telling me what I think and why I think it. (BTW, once again you're wrong) > Part of the imitation takes the form of advocating CARS to imitate whatever Rally America does.... Wrong again ... (more than you can imagine) It's actually the other way aroung, RA needs to be (much) more like CARS. (I suppose that's another form of arrogance ... but I just can't effin win) > I give a pretty inarguable reason: the expense is > a near defacto expense even if it is not an > obligatory one because it does allow ANYBODY to > have the (could be mistaken) confidence to believe > they know what is coming. Please tell me when you've competed an event on stage notes or pace notes and how much experience you have with them? > And considering the average speeds shown on thereally by any broader standards REALLY BROAD AND FAST stages, about 99% of the people out there need to learn basic fundementals about what the need to do better in both driving and car choice and prep. This we can agree on - but is independant of using notes or not. In fact REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE in western canada shows more events run and fewer offs (meaning more stage miles) since we moved to pace notes. > Now if you would grow a pair and apologize to Sean and to the rest of whom you have dismissed by saying you don't trust them to judge ever what they heard... If Sean took offense (which I'm not sure he did) I apologise. But I won't apologise for having an opinon based in real world experience and conversations that differs from Sean's opinion based on real world experience and conversations. > and maybe say understand what a negative effect on open conversation your words imply, then maybe there could be some honest discussion here. When I ask a question I expect more than name dropping for an answer. Sean's response to why he thought I was wrong might as well have been '...cause' First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 
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Banned Infallible Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
SEANT Wrote:
>... It's the opportunities of more events/practice that makes them better by giving them more seat time and the desire/lust to improve these skills. > Think about how much more comfortable/confidence one is driving and moving the car around at the end of an event then one is at the start. Can one imagine that comfort/confidence level of driving at the start of an event and the results one would achieve at the finish? I am in absolute agreement with this. The disconnect is that somehow having notes means less opportunity to get seat time and build those skills. That hasn't proven to be the case in Western Canada after 5 years of offering 2 pass recce. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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SEAN TENNIS Elite Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Morison Wrote:
> When I ask a question I expect more than name > dropping for an answer. Sean's response to why he > thought I was wrong might as well have been > '...cause' > > > When I "name dropped" it was only to pass on what I'd learned from talking to those whom most folks would know of and had great success in this sport. It was in response to being called out -- (in capital letters) --, the sense of who are you to tell anybody was implied ... If one doesn't agree that's great. I did not present my personal driving experience, because as usual the snipers are about -- beware --LOL 
I could also infer that "cause" may have been not getting the desired answer! In which case I'm sorry for taking the thread off course, it was not about notes or no notes. None the less, John Buffum has said many times on the route book issue he prefers bare minimum -- thinks the Northwest has to much information in the route book, it's his opinion and that's great -- certainly a challenge to drive. He also said that notes reaffirm what he believes the road is doing. I don't recall at the moment if he has preference to blind or notes, just that if blind total blind is better (in his opinion), notes reaffirm sight and experience ... Erik Carlsson on the other hand says pace notes are a must, the only way to get results -- this from someone running a 75-85 HP car and wants to win, makes sense from his stand point. Again the pace notes must be absolute committed too for success but they too reaffirm. Both won many events blind and noted ... These are two thoughts of opposite sides of rally notes, so we can see there is tons of room to play here. In the US stage notes came about because of the inconsistency of route books from area to area. With the rather imposing insistence of foreign teams wanting what they were use too stage notes was thrust upon us ... I might ad that like is so often the case those that insisted on something got their way and then left the sport and here we are still dealing with the aftermath and usual increased expense. As always IMHO SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR SEATTLE, WASHINGTON SAAB 99, SAAB 850 SAAB V4, SAAB 99T |
SEAN TENNIS Elite Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Banned Infallible Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Sean - It appears you completely misread what I was saying.
SEANT Wrote: > It was in response to being called out -- (in > capital letters) I only capitalise where It was right to do so, I certainly didn't to the 'ALL CAPS' or even bold thang. > the sense of who are you to tell anybody was implied ... You inferred it, John reinforced your inference, it certainly wasn't intended. >If one doesn't agree that's great. If it leads to a good discussion it's great. It's also fine if we don't agree in the end ... > None the less, John Buffum has said... > Erik Carlsson on the other hand says ... Thanks ... that is what I was looking for. My opinions were initially formed from discussions with PWRC co-drivers that I either bunked with or spent time with when I traveled with Pat Richard on his 2003 PWRC tour. (unfortunately, there was usually a lot of time to visit and chat) I heard the same message over and over, fully commit to the notes and focus on the road conditions and the unexpected. More-so, and this is a tangent from your position, if you use the notes to remind you of the road you'll never make the most of them. I have also spent a lot of time over the past 5 years developing notes and in-car teamwork and much of that work has reinforced what I heard. > In the US stage notes came about because of the inconsistency of route books from area to area. And, by extension, on 'blind' events, local knowledge is a HUGE advantage. >... and here we are still dealing with the aftermath and usual increased expense. Jemba is expensive for organisers and has been really expenisve for teams that over-commit to them. I am still unconvinced that 2 pass recce is that much more expensive, although events have to adjust their schedules to make it reasonable. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2009 09:52PM by Morison. |
Morten Super Moderator Location: Vancouver, BC Join Date: 11/04/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 218 Rally Car: 1974 Dodge Colt |
SEAN TENNIS Elite Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Banned Professional Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
Banned Infallible Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
SEANT Wrote:
> No, this is exactly what I was stating, "focus on > the road conditions and the unexpected", reading > the road and notes reaffirming ... it could be > said that were are discussing a very subtle > difference. Yes one commits to the notes, but the > notes are reaffirming what experience has taught - > not the notes teaching so to speak, one is reading > the roads. Does that make sense? Perhaps we have to look at how we define 'reading the road.' I am fully onside with the idea that notes are not there to teach someone how to read the road. This is particularly true with pace notes, since you need to know what to put in the notes in order for them to be of value. My impression of what you were saying was the following thought process for the driver: Looks like a R3 ahead, and from the lines from the previous cars I'm guessing it tightens, yup trees seem to tuck in as well so it probably either tightens or narrows. Yup, that self-important photographer wannabe just said 'R3>2 ! narrows 100,' so I can get on it once I see it finishing. Oh shit, it's starting to get shaded as we swing around the corner, so probably a bit slippy and still wet from last night's rain... My take is that the driver doesn't think that far ahead but is much more focused on the immediate.I also tend to keep just ahead of my driver with note delivery and NOT give them two or three corners in advance. The process of hearing, buffering, and recalling seems counter productive. It depends though. In CR 150 L1 I wouldn't deliver the L1 until we are clear of the crest. CR 20 L1 would be all called out at once and, in fact, CR 20 L1 into R3 would likely be a single call. The driver is focussed on the road and how to use it the best. Our notes give indication on lines to use and what to not do (no cut) and the only reading of corners that should happen is 'that didn't tighten' or 'that wasn't a +' > Certainly there is an expense increase, yes an > extra day or two, fuel, hotel, food, wear and > tear,time off work/lost income, it all adds up > rather quickly ... But you are forgetting the offset of less crash damage to the car and getting more seat time for the time and effort of going to an event. (IE: it could be more money spent, but if you run the full event instead of one stage you feel you get more value) I don't have all the answers I just know that rallying has generally grown in Western Canada since we moved to 2 pass recce for the events. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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SEAN TENNIS Elite Moderator Location: SEATTLE Join Date: 01/23/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 275 Rally Car: SAAB 99, SAAB 96 850, SAAB 99T, SAAB V4 |
Banned Infallible Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
SEANT Wrote:
> The driver should be looking as far down the road > as possible, that way he is much more relaxed and > able to place car versus react. Absolutely agree. > At speed the "immediate", would need > defined so we are talking a common language... For me, Immediate is the next element or grouping of elements needed to be dealt with. It usually works out to starting with the end of what can be seen. An exception would be "L4 300 Cattle Guard 500 sm crest 20 short L3" I wouldn't put the idea of slowing down for the L3 into the driver's head until after the cattle guard. One of the best examples of this is the Petter Solberg video where he beats the record of oninpoija (sp?.) The notes are tough to follow if you are trying to correlate the not to the calls (there's the 2, there's the crest) as you just can't keep up. BUT ... if you forget about connecting the notes to the road and simply look for the line the notes make perfect sense. > distance/delivery time ahead of the > driver with notes varies by driver, as we see from > in car, this still reaffirms the drivers > interpretation of what he sees = reading the road > and takes away from one second guessing ones self. Last year I co-drove for a different driver than usual, and one of the reasons was to work on notes and to give the driver a chance to run with a different co-driver. After the event he commented on how much later I was delivering the notes than his normal co-driver would BUT that it was much easier to drive to. I think that my year as a driver, on pace notes, is a definite advantage in knowing when a driver needs to know what. I rarely hear a driver call for the next note or a repeat of the last. A couple of weekends ago I tested with another driver but we haven't had a chance to debrief the session yet. A key part of notes is familiarity and trust in each other in the car. The driver can't be second guessing the notes. When I start feeling hesitations in the driver (lifting at a sa/cr or back on the throttle before a turn) I will increase my repeats and work to reinforce my calls (pointing to corners etc.) Sean, I suspect we are closer in concept than some thought at first and that we are quibbling over interpretations. That said, the level of commitment I am talking about can only happen with a lot of trust, familiarity and work. As an example, Norm can tell my confidence in the notes in what he hears, even when I am not trying to back him out of overcommitment. > I'm not sure one can ad in crash damage, some > rarely crash others seem to excel at it. Very true. I think you can because for the longest time, pre-recce, we went without novices finishing their first rally, usually with a minor-ish off, sometimes with a significant one. Since moving to recce, the ratio has reversed with first time drivers finishing as a rule and it being the rare case that doesn't. That change extends into the more experienced field, but, in reality, could be summarized as the small accidents get smaller but the big accidents get bigger. > > I don't have all the answers I just know that > > rallying has generally grown in Western Canada > > since we moved to 2 pass recce for the events. > > > Any idea why this is? If not it might be worth a > questionnaire at an event or two, could help with > enticing new blood. I can only guess, so a questionnaire is a good idea. Maybe we can find someone with the skills/knowledge to do it right. (surveys are a black art if I have ever seen one.) First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015
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Alan Perry Elite Moderator Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Join Date: 02/20/2008 Age: Ancient Posts: 430 |
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