SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > To be fair, these comments were made in response
> > to someone attributing meaning to something
> > someone else said. None of the rest of us were
> > there, so we don't know what was really said. We
> > just have the one interpretation presented here.
> >
> > Most people hear what people tell them through the
> > filter of their own experience and opinion.
>
> Alan, I take offense to what you said here, there
> were other people present that heard the
> conversations.

You really shouldn't take offense because a) that was not my intent and b) your response here just proved my point.

> You, and I do mean "you" are
> pushing an agenda by trying to discount what I
> said, which was a question solicited for response,
> that fact that the response did not get the
> expected answer seems to be a problem and
> therefore is trying to be discounted or
> discredited!

That is how you took what I wrote.

From my point of view, all I was doing was expressing my opinion, based on my experience. I spend a lot of time sitting in front of the computer, so I can normally post a lot.

> The question not being asked but
> implied was "should stage notes be dropped in
> favor of 3 pass recce"!

I didn't get that implication.

> > If you don't like stage notes or pace notes, then
> > don't use them and save the time and money.
>
> It is obvious by this statement that discussion
> has broken down and minds have closed, it's a
> shame this is what happens in such a small
> community as we rally folks are on this
> continent.

Thank you for demonstrating my point again.

My intent was if you (in the group sense) think the route book and blind rally is the way that rally should be done, then do it. Decide that you won't buy stage notes or participate in recce, police the group to make sure that no one is running notes and score yourself. If a group of competitors want to do this, let me know and I'll score it.

Whenever people complain about the class structure, my standard response is "create your own class and score it yourself". I have even offered prize fund cash to promote class ideas that I though were interesting (luckily no one took me up on it!).

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > To be fair, these comments were made in
> response
> > > to someone attributing meaning to
> something
> > > someone else said. None of the rest of
> us were
> > > there, so we don't know what was really
> said. We
> > > just have the one interpretation
> presented here.
> > >
> > > Most people hear what people tell them
> through the
> > > filter of their own experience and
> opinion.
> >
> > Alan, I take offense to what you said here,
> there
> > were other people present that heard the
> > conversations.
>
> You really shouldn't take offense because a) that
> was not my intent and b) your response here just
> proved my point.
>
> > You, and I do mean "you" are
> > pushing an agenda by trying to discount what
> I
> > said, which was a question solicited for
> response,
> > that fact that the response did not get the
> > expected answer seems to be a problem and
> > therefore is trying to be discounted or
> > discredited!
>
> That is how you took what I wrote.
>
> From my point of view, all I was doing was
> expressing my opinion, based on my experience. I
> spend a lot of time sitting in front of the
> computer, so I can normally post a lot.
>
> > The question not being asked but
> > implied was "should stage notes be dropped
> in
> > favor of 3 pass recce"!
>
> I didn't get that implication.
>
> > > If you don't like stage notes or pace
> notes, then
> > > don't use them and save the time and
> money.
> >
> > It is obvious by this statement that
> discussion
> > has broken down and minds have closed, it's
> a
> > shame this is what happens in such a small
> > community as we rally folks are on this
> > continent.
>
> Thank you for demonstrating my point again.
>
> My intent was if you (in the group sense) think
> the route book and blind rally is the way that
> rally should be done, then do it. Decide that you
> won't buy stage notes or participate in recce,
> police the group to make sure that no one is
> running notes and score yourself. If a group of
> competitors want to do this, let me know and I'll
> score it.
>
> Whenever people complain about the class
> structure, my standard response is "create your
> own class and score it yourself". I have even
> offered prize fund cash to promote class ideas
> that I though were interesting (luckily no one
> took me up on it!).
>
> alan
>

Alan, no worries

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > My intent was if you (in the group sense) think
> > the route book and blind rally is the way that
> > rally should be done, then do it. Decide that you
> > won't buy stage notes or participate in recce,
> > police the group to make sure that no one is
> > running notes and score yourself. If a group of
> > competitors want to do this, let me know and I'll
> > score it.
>
> Alan, no worries

Cool.

I think that this would be an interesting thing to try and, if a group of competitors want to do this, I really am willing to do the administrivia
and promote the results.

Alan, policing this is simple, anyone the beats you cheated! LOL

I don't see why it wouldn't work, there isn't anything to be gained by cheating and winning, we are after all out for fun and a good thrashing!

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Holy Shit the key boards are smoking now!

Two things that Gene said I would like to respond to.

"However..since no organizer nor sanctioning body currently mandates notes or no rally it isn't worth arguing over." If you want to use notes, Jemba is mandated by RA.

"But if they want notes and are willing to pay for them then what is the problem?" The problem is that they can only use Jemba.

The reason that I started this thread is to see what other people thought about the Jemba system. I think that a system that uses normal words is much better. I also think that everyone who wants to use notes should be allowed but also required to write their own.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Holy Shit the key boards are smoking now!
>
> Two things that Gene said I would like to respond
> to.
>
> "However..since no organizer nor sanctioning body
> currently mandates notes or no rally it isn't
> worth arguing over." If you want to use notes,
> Jemba is mandated by RA.
>
> "But if they want notes and are willing to pay for
> them then what is the problem?" The problem is
> that they can only use Jemba.
>
> The reason that I started this thread is to see
> what other people thought about the Jemba system.
> I think that a system that uses normal words is
> much better. I also think that everyone who wants
> to use notes should be allowed but also required
> to write their own.
>
> Robert.

Rally America uses Jemba notes. They also pay for the notes and then sell them to the competitors. Win, lose or draw it's their deal. Organizers are out nothing, Jemba notes are pretty consistant between events. They may not be absolutely perfect but most everyone has learned to work with them it seems.

Competitors cannot make their own notes at all events because some areas are closed to recce. There is a larger time requirement to making notes in person. Inconsistancy between people making them might be an issue. I think it might be difficult to drive a road at 25 mph and make effective notes for speeds at 100 mph, especially for less experienced crews.

Have you used Jemba notes or competed at a RA event?

Gene,

No I haven't used Jemba notes or run an RA event. Just curious what other peoples thoughts were.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:

> The reason that I started this thread is to see
> what other people thought about the Jemba system.

Jemba notes are consistant, for the most part, but as someone with a lot more experience than me said once, if you commit 100% to jemba it is a matter of WHEN you go off not if. You need to hold back a bit in reserve and I certainly recognised variations based on which team generated the notes. Mostly, these were the manually added elements (small crest, kinks, etc) and the corner grades and distances were solid.

> I think that a system that uses normal words is much better.
At one point you could as for Jemba in 'descriptive' language if you wanted... not sure if that is still available. The numbers work well. Like any language, there is a period of adjustment but, as I mentioned before, we can differentiate between a 4+ and a 5-.


> I also think that everyone who wants to use notes should be allowed but also required to write their own.

Bring it on. :-)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Robert, you can/could get non-numeric Jemba notes. They are/were referred to a 'descriptive' and use kindergartner terms such as 'Easy' and 'Medium' for corner grades.

One reason numeric notes are so much better is because 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 are all single syllable words while 'Easy' and 'Medium' are two syllables. Makes a huge difference spitting them out fast enough in technical sections for the codriver to keep pace with the driver/car.

Another is with 'plus' and 'minus' grades, there are 14 different easy recognition corner grades (everyone knows a 5+ is faster than a 4-). Try memorizing 14 different Easy, Medium, Fast, Flat descriptive words which you'll instantly recognize the severity of.

After the first season of both Numeric and Descriptive style Jemba notes being offered by SCCA, only a few die-hard teams were still buying Jemba descriptive notes. Nowdays it makes no sense in offering them because of the additional cost printing both styles so they've been dropped.

Once you've got the car control down and tune into your codriver, notes will always be able to provide you much more quantity, more detailed and more precisely timed delivery instructions over tulips.

While recce and pacenotes will always be the most fine tuned for greatest speed, stagenotes have their place for offering consistency between events/regions, a means for notes were recce isn't possible due to local sensitivities, decreased local road knowledge advantages and lessen the amount of time required per event for teams by not having to participate in recces.

Jemba notes have increased the speed (better specatator excitement) and safety (less to no gotchas) over our tulip-only-blind-rally past and bridged the gap to full recce schedules by providing teams the language and codrivers the shorthand to have a clue how to prepare their own pacenotes.

Pick up a copy of North American Performance Rally Codriving and Pacenoting Manual. It covers how Jemba notes are made, how to edit Jemba notes, useful tidbits gained from the Jemba introduction page(s), preparing the notes during the rally,.....

Given all else equal, its the drivers who trust their codrivers and drive to the extent of the notes and not what the see who will excel in in the results.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I think that a system that uses normal words is much better.
>
> At one point you could as for Jemba in
> 'descriptive' language if you wanted... not sure
> if that is still available.

Doug Havir was the only person opting to get them, so now they are only available when Doug is driving

In my opinion, the problem with descriptive language is that it takes more syllables to express the same idea than with numbers. For some corners, I was running out of time to say everything that needed to be said.

> > I also think that everyone who wants to use
> > notes should be allowed but also required to write
> > their own.
>
> Bring it on!

If I were still co-driving, I would agree.

And then I watch the Chris Blakely video from Idaho and think about it some more.

alan

I think alot of the confusion in this thread comes from refering to all notes as pace notes (which are driver specific) and Stage notes/routebook.

I hate Jemba because it gives distances EXACTLY as they measure out.

When I write my own notes I can call 200M what I think 200m LOOKS like. Then on subsequent passes and the actual stage that 200m will ALWAYS look like 200m to me even if it's really 500m.

---

Gone fishing

david amor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think alot of the confusion in this thread comes
> from refering to all notes as pace notes (which
> are driver specific) and Stage notes/routebook.
>
> I hate Jemba because it gives distances EXACTLY as
> they measure out.
>
> When I write my own notes I can call 200M what I
> think 200m LOOKS like. Then on subsequent passes
> and the actual stage that 200m will ALWAYS look
> like 200m to me even if it's really 500m.
>
>
>
> "As the spirit wanes, the form apears" -Charles
> Bukowski


Ok, you lost me a bit..you would rather have perception than reality ? I admit reality bites some days but, go thru the Jemba notes and mark all the 200m up or down until it meets your impression.
And the girls all think we lie about the 2 inch differential...6 is a percieved number "Sorry honey, it looks like 6 to me...". Then there is the old, "sorry judge she looked 18...". How big was that trout? "16 inches" ...That restrictor measured 34 when I put it in... How much does Chrysler need for the bailout? $20 billion...My turbo 1600cc Honda makes 700hp...

Guys and numbers are just a mess, it's in our genetic make-up. Jemba gives us a standard to adjust to, a reality check.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, you lost me a bit..you would rather have
> perception than reality ? I admit reality bites
> some days but, go thru the Jemba notes and mark
> all the 200m up or down until it meets your
> impression.

I did pace notes with one driver whose perception of distance
was way off. During recce he would call distance number that
were way too small, something like 1/4 what they should be.
After noting this a couple of times, he said that the number
that he was giving me was what the distance looked like to him.

As a co-driver, you say what you have to say to make the driver
faster, even if it doesn't make any sense to you.

> My turbo 1600cc Honda makes 700hp...

And if he were Alain Prost in 1987, he would be telling the truth (except that it was 1500cc).

alan

david amor Wrote:
> I hate Jemba because it gives distances EXACTLY as
> they measure out.
> When I write my own notes I can call 200M what I
> think 200m LOOKS like. Then on subsequent passes
> and the actual stage that 200m will ALWAYS look
> like 200m to me even if it's really 500m.

Dave, you missed April 1 by a couple of days.

Every time I have used an odo to measure 'perception' distances I have found that they are usually astoundingly inconsistent. After enough pace noting with measured distances, perception gains accuracy and consistency but I still prefer to recce with an odo.

The drivers who have been the most adamant about wanting 'their perception' in the notes are the ones that I've found have the biggest float in that distance. 200+ isn't a biggie, although in limited visibility you'll be feeling for the corner without the ability for the codriver to zero the interval and count down the straight. L4, 300, ! ruf cat grd, 500, R3 ... in dust you'd seriously want to be able to get a solid reference on all of those elements.

If your 70 is sometimes 100 and sometimes 40 (seen this in real life pace noting) then exactly how will you take the crest, 70, L @ T?

For the record, I've had discussions about this with co-drivers with strokes through and/or dots above letters in their names.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> david amor Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think alot of the confusion in this thread
> comes
> > from refering to all notes as pace notes
> (which
> > are driver specific) and Stage
> notes/routebook.
> >
> > I hate Jemba because it gives distances
> EXACTLY as
> > they measure out.
> >
> > When I write my own notes I can call 200M
> what I
> > think 200m LOOKS like. Then on subsequent
> passes
> > and the actual stage that 200m will ALWAYS
> look
> > like 200m to me even if it's really 500m.
> >
> >
> >
> > "As the spirit wanes, the form apears"
> -Charles
> > Bukowski
>
>
> Ok, you lost me a bit..you would rather have
> perception than reality ?

If I payed any mind to reality, my life would suck



I admit reality bites
> some days but, go thru the Jemba notes and mark
> all the 200m up or down until it meets your
> impression.
> And the girls all think we lie about the 2 inch
> differential...6 is a percieved number "Sorry
> honey, it looks like 6 to me...". Then there is
> the old, "sorry judge she looked 18...". How big
> was that trout? "16 inches" ...That restrictor
> measured 34 when I put it in... How much does
> Chrysler need for the bailout? $20 billion...My
> turbo 1600cc Honda makes 700hp...
>
> Guys and numbers are just a mess, it's in our
> genetic make-up. Jemba gives us a standard to
> adjust to, a reality check.
>

Have no need or want to learn Jemba. I have used it and I'd rather drive with no notes.

---

Gone fishing