The end of the US auto industry ?

starion887 Wrote:
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> I must be stupid and easy to please. I keep buying
> US cars and like them....go figure.
>

Well i must be stupider still, I keep driving 20-40 year old Furrin You're-a-peein' cars and I still really prefer them!


> The US auto industry is part of the balance to
> play on what you want retained for wealth
> creation. Keep in mind that not everyone can be a
> high tech person or manager like so many folks on
> this forum; some jobs for those who don't care or
> can't be PhD's is important, IMO.

Wait I want to be an artiste!!!
Can't we all be artistes???!
Fuckin killjoy!

By the way, your point about wealth creation is central but let us not forget maybe the most critical and most ignored thing that creates the highest value: skilled industrial workers who change lumps of raw material into finished products which might work and bring happiness and save money for decades.
That once was acknowledged as America's greatest strength: The American worker.
We always had a surplus of skilled, educated workers, and for a hundred years from the 1830s to the 1930s we relied on more coming, many from the productive North of Europe, many already fully aware of their value, and politically progressive, and concious of the fact that they were building a new country, changing it from a mostly poor rural population to one where most people lived far better than their contemporaries in the rest of the world.

Then their children all decided to be artistes.......
And speculators and stockbrokers......

And it's been downhill for the working class---and the country-- since the early 70s.

>
> Regards,
> Mark B.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The export of raw materials and then subsequently importing finished products using those very same materials doesn't help either.

I wonder if some of the lower wage economies (Asia) couldn't buy coal, iron ore, etc... that would spike the prices of items needing these things. These in turn could be produced using the higher wages of the countries with the natural resources and still be incredibly competitive.

North America is very rich in natural resources, and too many corporations have gone off shore for production / manufacturing. Leaving in their wake tremendous unemployment.

My friend is the North American logistics manager for a large corporation and they're shutting a Canadian plant and moving it to the US because of wages are lower. Not indifferent from how alot of US plants have shut down in the US and moved to Mexico or overseas.

Sorry about the slight threadjack (Hmmmmm can one threadjack his own thread and still be PC ?)

I have a Ford E350 with a Triton 5.4L. It gives me 4 KM per liter, a tune up costs $450, and it drives like the 1972 Newport I shared with my friends in high school. The only thing good is that I can carry 4'X8' material and 10' sticks of wood with the doors closed. I would have bought diesel but at a $6000 additional cost, who can afford that ?

Where are all the 4 cylinder diesel vehicles that are available everywhere else in the world that have cargo capability, and don't even get me going on the $50000 Dodge Sprinter.

A diesel minivan would be nice with cargo capability.

Jeep had a CRD (common rail diesel) in the Liberty for what ? 2 years and then it was discontinued.

The big 3 haven't been listening to consumers for a long time, unless you were in the market for an SUV, a larger than life truck (space cab / mega cab), or a huge V8 performance hemi, etc...) What's the market segment (consumer %) of these ?

Dodge got caught with their pants down during the OPEC oil crisis of the early 70's and scrambled to import and re-badge small Japanese cars.

Last summer oil prices spiked and consumers panicked. Oil prices have fallen but I think most of us know they'll go back up to what they were in the next 5 years.

It seems there's always been bright concept cars.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
> By the way, your point about wealth creation is
> central but let us not forget maybe the most
> critical and most ignored thing that creates the
> highest value: skilled industrial workers who
> change lumps of raw material into finished
> products which might work and bring happiness and
> save money for decades.

I think that's what Mark means when he says "manufacturing." You are right, the workers are the force that drives manufacturing.

A nation that does not have enough natural resources to support it's own energy needs, and doesn't manufacture anything, importing every product it consumes is a nation that is losing wealth.

Financial shell games don't provide any lasting wealth.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Lurch Wrote:
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> A nation that does not have enough natural
> resources to support it's own energy needs, and
> doesn't manufacture anything, importing every
> product it consumes is a nation that is losing
> wealth.
>

Nicely put!

America has alwayd been for competition and "let the best win". Or that's the image and rant, anyway. However, rules can be changed to fit... like when Harley was in the ropes they put an extra tax on Impoted big bikes. Harley turned OK but they shouldn't help the loosers now. They had plenty of time to build cars people really want. Is an old fart like Bob Lutz (Pontiac guru from '50s?) the Best Brains America have? He should be wrapped on that horrible Solstice conv top, the ugliest since Skoda Felicia Cabriolet, and be buried in the Florida Retirement Village - from where he was brought to "save" GM.
I was going to buy a new American car - the first in my life - but can't get what I want: 2010 Chevy Camaro. They don't know if or when it'll be build. Then I was going to get an HHR Panel or Half-panel. They only have booring and cheap rental lot models. So much for brillient marketing. They had big PUs, SUVs and other manure lots full but not what sells right now. HHR is the hottest car in LA but they don't have them! No wonder the biggest dealer, Rydell's on the Van Nuys Blvd, went out of business.
I also test drove the new Challenger - a big fat whale. No thanks.
Then 2009 Mustang Bullitt. It had wonderful engine and great shifting 5-sp but not much more. An old looking new car. No thanks.
I'd like Corvette - the best value of any sports car - but it's over my play-money-budget.
So I'm looking for (as usual) a used German or Japanese second hand car.

---

- RWD rocks -

Morten2 Wrote:
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> The big 3 haven't been listening to consumers for
> a long time, unless you were in the market for an
> SUV, a larger than life truck (space cab / mega
> cab), or a huge V8 performance hemi, etc...)
> What's the market segment (consumer %) of these ?

Until the fuel crunch last year, larger than any other segment. Until last year the F150 has been the best selling vehicle (car, truck, OR SUV) in the world for many years.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Carl S Wrote:
> Nicely put!

Thanks. I wish I could take credit for it, but my father has said exactly that for the last decade. I was plagiarizing.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

Topi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Harley turned OK
> but they shouldn't help the loosers now. They had
> plenty of time to build cars people really want.
> Is an old fart like Bob Lutz (Pontiac guru from
> '50s?) the Best Brains America have?

I agree, they had plenty of time.

> I was going to buy a new American car - the first
> in my life - but can't get what I want (for reasonable money)

I agree, I'm completely uninspired by almost all of the cars being offered for any sort of reasonable amount of money --period-- and have been for as long as I've been able to buy a new car.

> So I'm looking for (as usual) a used German or
> Japanese second hand car.

I think part of the reason why the imports kicked the B3s asses is that they've been used to providing a budget minded, exciting car for the past 50+ years. In a way, you can blame America's success for this. All it used to take was to make a pretty car and put a really big motor in it, you didn't have to actually think about it, or make it actually perform. Gas was cheap, burn it and all the tires you want if you want excitement.

The other thing I want to note is that, there has been ABSOLUTELY NO major car inherent innovation for at least the last 40 years. Every major improvement has been from materials, processess, and electronics. So the car makers have had nothing new in their bag of tricks for quite sometime, and all they've managed to do is make cars more expensive and heavier (not all their fault, safety regs).

My point is, it's all incredibly blah. They can't even seem to make something that I think looks half decent most of the time.

At the end of the day, cars generally get no better gas mileage than they did years and years before, they don't look any better, they don't cost any less, and they're no more exciting to drive.

Where do I sign!

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

I'd like to think that most of us don't want to see the US auto makers fail. Rather we don't want the gov to spend our money on a lost cause. Look at it this way... countries that have huge welfare systems generally see higher unemployment. It's a motivation problem. I know... half my family lives in England. 'Living on the dole' is a way of life for lots of folks over there. If the gov bails out big corps (too big to fail) what motivation do they have to really compete with the best?
I want to see us pull our heads out of our asses and build good stuff! It makes me sick to see how few products we actually make over here! We can't even build kids toys! This has to end, and I just don't think Obama and Congress will come up with the answers... it's really not their job.
I think JVL hit on something: Years ago we had a steady flow of educated and entrepreneure minded people coming in. Not so much right now. They wanted to come to America because their governments sucked, and they didn't see a chance to build their own dreams in their own countries. Are we headed down that same path? I sure don't know, but I'm definitely worried about it.

I've been hoping for a good small turbodiesel for years. They're all over Europe, but all you can get here these days is a 400hp, 2000lbs of torque mega exhaust monster truck. The CRD Liberty was interesting, but couldn't haul shit, and really wasn't all that good on gas. Maybe it needed a manual tranny?

Not pikcing on you in particular, Morten. Just some things caugth my eye a bit....
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> The export of raw materials and then subsequently
> importing finished products using those very same
> materials doesn't help either.
Yes, you know the story well there in BC; logs out to Japan and China; finished goods back in.

> >
> I have a Ford E350 with a Triton 5.4L. It gives me
> 4 KM per liter, a tune up costs $450, and it
> drives like the 1972 Newport I shared with my
> friends in high school. The only thing good is
> that I can carry 4'X8' material and 10' sticks of
> wood with the doors closed. I would have bought
> diesel but at a $6000 additional cost, who can
> afford that ?
And you were expecting Ferrari performance? What you are failing to do is identify the non-US equivalent to meet your needs, at the price you can afford. Do you use this for your carpentry/framing work?

As for the tune up, you probably don't understand the price of 80's, pre-FI Japanese carbs, where they tried to meet US emissions with crazy intricate carbs. These got out of whack, the mechanics could not fix them or calibrate them in the field, and many just had to be replaced at the present $$ equivalent of about $800-1100. Jap cars have been leaders in high priced unit replacement repairs, from what I can see. Ever tried to replace the alternator on a Mazda 323 GTX? Ridiculous process.

>
> Where are all the 4 cylinder diesel vehicles that
> are available everywhere else in the world that
> have cargo capability, and don't even get me going
> on the $50000 Dodge Sprinter.
>
> A diesel minivan would be nice with cargo
> capability.
That's the Sprinter. If you think there will be one at a lower price, I guess there is something from the east.....have you looked at Isuzu?
>
> Jeep had a CRD (common rail diesel) in the Liberty
> for what ? 2 years and then it was discontinued.
The US EPA forced stoppage of that production Jeep due to partculate levels. The diesel version of several Jeep and Dodge/Chrysler Caravans account for 60% of Chrysler sales in Europe. Everyone should think a bit about the effects of US gov't regs on the situation.

> The big 3 haven't been listening to consumers for
> a long time, unless you were in the market for an
> SUV, a larger than life truck (space cab / mega
> cab), or a huge V8 performance hemi, etc...)
> What's the market segment (consumer %) of these ?
I have a Cummins Diesel Mega Cab AND IT FITS IN VERY WELL WITH MY NEEDS which includes a lot of long trips carrying expensive test and customer electronic equipment inthe cab area where it is protected, while carrying ladders and heavy stuff in the back. In a rural area, it serves well to carry trash to the county landfill, etc. A lot of you guys don't live in a rural area, and apparently don't have a single clue about the needs to transport heavy stuff for the farm or home over doznes of miles. They sure listened to me.

> Dodge got caught with their pants down during the
> OPEC oil crisis of the early 70's and scrambled to
> import and re-badge small Japanese cars.
Not true, the Colt was imported strating in the 1970 model year, 4 years prior to the late 1973 oil embargo. It was imported to fill the low end market for very small economy cars that was developing, and started in well before 1970. The Pinto, the Vega, the continued importation of the Opels by Buick all were part of that. Get the facts striaght. The Toyotas of the day were JUNK!

Mark B.

>
> Financial shell games don't provide any lasting
> wealth.

Shell games. I agree, But finance is not totally a loser. Making loans and providing insurance does not produce new wealth, per se, but it does accrue wealth to the loaners/insurers. The UK grew a lot of their wealth in the late 19th century and into the 20th century by big finance. But, one is shut out of getting the wealth of some many activities if one does not have wealth building in a wide range of areas.

>
> I've been hoping for a good small turbodiesel for
> years. They're all over Europe, but all you can
> get here these days is a 400hp, 2000lbs of torque
> mega exhaust monster truck. The CRD Liberty was
> interesting, but couldn't haul shit, and really
> wasn't all that good on gas. Maybe it needed a
> manual tranny?

Me too, I'd love the 3L diesel in a Dakota. It's only in the top end Jeep. And was developed by Daimler, like the Sprinter diesel.

But keep in mind that Chrysler HAS been working to improve their diesels to meet the 2010 US standards (particulate and NOx are the challenges, I believe; Josh Wimpey I bet knows. ) They have been the US leaders in trying to get more diesels into the market.

Mark B.

>
> At the end of the day, cars generally get no
> better gas mileage than they did years and years
> before, they don't look any better, they don't
> cost any less, and they're no more exciting to
> drive.
>
Hunh? My 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 CI: 12 mpg city OR highway.

2009 Dodge Challenger R/T 5.7L: 25 mpg for real highway mileage, in the mountains, driven in the low to mid 70 mph range, all day long. Has variable cam timing, plus MDS in addition for the auto version. These MPG's are for real.

65' Goat -> NICE !

Does it have a 4 barrel or is it tri-powered ?

starion887 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As for the tune up, you probably don't understand
> the price of 80's, pre-FI Japanese carbs, where
> they tried to meet US emissions with crazy
> intricate carbs. These got out of whack, the
> mechanics could not fix them or calibrate them in
> the field, and many just had to be replaced at the
> present $$ equivalent of about $800-1100. Jap cars
> have been leaders in high priced unit replacement
> repairs, from what I can see. Ever tried to
> replace the alternator on a Mazda 323 GTX?
> Ridiculous process.

You mention later about the urban rural divide, in general the Urban public thinks Imports are the only smart buy, bar none.. you're a flat out moron to buy a domestic -- this is really not much, if any of an exageration --.

My parents have a neighbour, who bought a Miata way back when.. and drove it lightly and not very far.. they would spend some massive amount, lets say $500 for a brake job and think that was awesome.. the camshaft cracked in some crazy fashion, no problem.. the dealer epoxied it.. They're overall impression. Man people are stupid to buy a domestic.

> for 60% of Chrysler sales in Europe. Everyone
> should think a bit about the effects of US gov't
> regs on the situation.

Aside from diesels.. what about that 5 mph bumper? that doesn't really seem to prevent big $$ repairs anyways.

> I have a Cummins Diesel Mega Cab AND IT FITS IN
> VERY WELL WITH MY NEEDS which includes a lot of
> long trips carrying expensive test and customer
> electronic equipment inthe cab area where it is
> protected, while carrying ladders and heavy stuff
> in the back. In a rural area, it serves well to
> carry trash to the county landfill, etc. A lot of
> you guys don't live in a rural area, and
> apparently don't have a single clue about the
> needs to transport heavy stuff for the farm or
> home over doznes of miles. They sure listened to
> me.

I grew up on a farm, I get you. The problem is that people that live in urban centers see people driving your truck, because they might one day buy a boat, that they will likely want to tow at some point.. in the mean time they will keep it squeeky clean, drive like an asshole, and maybe put something from Ikea in the back of it.

A fair amount of the backlash is coming from the lincoln, caddy, dodge pickup trucks with wings segment......

> Not true, the Colt was imported strating in the
> 1970 model year, 4 years prior to the late 1973
> oil embargo. It was imported to fill the low end
> market for very small economy cars that was
> developing, and started in well before 1970. The
> Pinto, the Vega, the continued importation of the
> Opels by Buick all were part of that. Get the
> facts striaght. The Toyotas of the day were JUNK!

And part of the reason why they never truely caught on was during the 60s and forevermore it seems there's been 2 main reasonings going on:

1) You're safer in a bigger vehicle - this has been sort of an equivalent to the nuclears arms race.. so the average person is driving a x lbs car? I'll buy my wife a x + y lbs car!

2) Conspicuous consumption... if you or your family is rolling around in a big heavy gas guzzler, you must be rich/successfull/happy.

Just my 2 cents again

Cheers

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish