Bah...

Substandard vehicles? Driven a new Ford recently? Or a new Chrysler minivan? Or a Malibu?

UAW (or CAW in my case) to blame?

Try retirement costs the captives don't face because lazy politicians dropped their drawers in "right to work" states so the foreign automakers don't have to cough up for decent retirement benefits, and the USA is the last civilized country in the world without a single payer medical system, yeah medical lobby, rah, rah...

t

---

Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly creative man -- Sir Alec

>
> You need to add the Challenger to your 'save from
> Chrylser' list. And...uuuh.....Cummins makes the
> Cummins engine......
>

Yeah, I know the Cummins diesel isn't a ChryCo product. But that engine is probably the best domestic powerplant to put in any sort of pick-em-up truck.

The Challenger is cool, for a two ton sled. I'm still waiting for Ford to do a retro-mod Mercury Cougar Eliminator. Hey, the Mustang chassis is right there...

Hey, I'd like to see a viable Chrysler/FIAT merger/acquisition/arrangement, but I just don't see enough good product from Chrysler...and if they started today with a great engineering staff, they'd need 3 years minimum to get new product out there. Thrifty Rent-A-Car can only buy so many crappy Sebrings (or whatever they are).

Big picture is that the system is BROKEN. Our government only knows how to line pockets of their buddies while spending like drunken sailors (goes for both parties equally) and diverting attention from the business of running the country by distracting everybody by mucking about in people's personal affairs or beliefs.

Seems like the entire economy forgot how to make products properly (be they cars, lawn darts or mortgages), and instead focused on what sort of cute accounting move they could make to increase our paper wealth each week. When you pay more attention to pumping up share price than you do on making the best [insert product or service here], you're setting yourself up for failure. And we've got boat loads of fail out there now.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

I honestly think they should let the companies fold up!

I'll tell you why.

The problem is now largely an image problem, that I don't think any of the "big" 3 will ever shake.

Most of the people I know, and I know all kinds of people, think that you're smart if you buy a compact import and you're misguided at best and probably wished you could afford a bigger domestic if you buy a compact domestic.

This isn't new thinking, this has been around for quite sometime.

For the record, for every horror domestic story, I can think of a horror import story (except for some reason the owners of imports don't seem to mind as much). And vice versa. I bet you guys can too.

The only things that I can regularly think of domestics in sucking at are interiors (aside from cup holders, by and large the shittiest in the civilized world), wallowy suspension, and for quite sometime, not making a small car that appeals to me... But those SUVs were so profitable!

Sure the companies have their heads up there asses so far it's not funny, sure their labour agreements are absolutely retarded. But fixing all of that won't fix the image problem.

We can bail them out all we want, but that's not going to make half of the population that won't even consider a domestic run out and buy one.

Also, special mention should go out to all the people who ran out and bought an SUV on extremely dubious reasoning. How sad is it for us men, that the litmus test for the 90s and 00s of how manly you are, has come down to whether or not you own a girly-truck/glorified-minivan-with-less-storage-and-fuel-economy that you somehow justified to the missus.

Oh, except for H2s, those screem manly!

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Got too hot and heavy about ranting

If 2 or all of the big 3 automobile companies went tits up tomorrow. Lots of people would lose their jobs etc.

But something would fill the void, either another existing car company, or a new one.

Either way, there wouldn't be an image problem.

And frankly, I kind of find "brand loyalty" kind of funny.. everyone is subject to it a little bit.. but for some reason people like to think that company X in 1970 is some how the same company in 1990.

It's just a badge!

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I gotta agree with you (erika) to some extent.
> Big govt needs to step back. How can they run big
> businesses when they are a group of elitist pigs
> beholden to lobbiests and special interest groups
> like 'Move on' and ACORN on the left, and any
> number of big corps on the right?
>
> I hate to see our auto companies fail. It would
> have a terrible effect on the economy as all the
> parts suppliers etc might fail also. But being
> held up by the government surely reduces
> incentives to produce a good product NO MATTER
> WHAT THEY SAY! Obama fired GM's CEO for
> christsakes! How the hell does that happen? I've
> never driven a Lada, but I'm betting it's no
> Toyota or Honda for quality (we're not talking
> about driving in the woods here).
>
> So what do we do? Sit and watch our auto industry
> collapse and bring the entire economy much further
> down with it? Or do we prop it up and hope that we
> don't encourage dismal product lines and poor
> quality for ever? No idea what the answer is
> here, but I vote to step back and let them fix it
> themselves. The world economy sucks, but people
> will still buy cars.



The big three have gotten everything that they asked for for the past 30 years and they continue to flounder...Let them fail already..





http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/20090330-chrysler-assessment.pdf

Current focus: In the near term, Chrysler is planning to lift profitability by focusing on its more profitable truck and SUV segments. Given the potential variability in fuel prices, Chrysler’s volume assumptions for these cars may be at risk.

"Stupid is as stupid does"
fuckers deserve whatever happens to them

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/20090330-gm-assessment.pdf

Absent the successful introduction of a number of new-generation nameplates, as described in the Company’s plan, GM’s product portfolio is more vulnerable to CAFE standard increases than the portfolios of many of its competitors (although GM is in compliance today with current standards). Many of its products fail to meet the minimum threshold on fuel economy and rank in the bottom quartile of fuel economy achievement.

while the Company has made meaningful progress in its turnaround plan over the last few years, the progress has been far too slow, allowing the Company to continue to lag the best-in-class competitors. Furthermore, even if the projected plan is achieved, the cash flow forecast is quite modest, leaving the Company little margin for error in what will be a very difficult turnaround.

spot on..

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

frumby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wall Street and the banks are full of greedy
> assholes. But I find it hard to pin this on them
> when the bottom line is this: Leftist agendas
> (not just driven by Dems, but by Repubs also) that
> forced Fannie, Freddie and others to lend to WAY
> sub prime mortgages (a house for everybody!).
> It's the Governments fault. The Bush team saw
> something coming a couple of years ago and tried
> to regulate Fannie/Freddie, but Congress stopped
> it.

The blame Fannie and Ffreddie game is ridiculous. Their portfolio contained less than 10% sub-prime mortgage backed assetts. FAR FAR Less than the non-government hybrid banks/mortgage houses etc...

Plenty of other problems with Fannie and Freddie but pretending that they drove the sub-prime bus off the cliff is simply ignorant.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I honestly think they should let the companies
> fold up!
>
> I'll tell you why.
>
> The problem is now largely an image problem, that
> I don't think any of the "big" 3 will ever shake.
>
>
> Most of the people I know, and I know all kinds of
> people, think that you're smart if you buy a
> compact import and you're misguided at best and
> probably wished you could afford a bigger domestic
> if you buy a compact domestic.
>
> This isn't new thinking, this has been around for
> quite sometime.
>
> For the record, for every horror domestic story, I
> can think of a horror import story (except for
> some reason the owners of imports don't seem to
> mind as much). And vice versa. I bet you guys
> can too.
>
> The only things that I can regularly think of
> domestics in sucking at are interiors (aside from
> cup holders, by and large the shittiest in the
> civilized world), wallowy suspension, and for
> quite sometime, not making a small car that
> appeals to me... But those SUVs were so
> profitable!


On the nose.

Quality ratings for many of the US cars are now better than imports. Fact remains that:

"An ounce of perception is worth a pound of performance."

In a clinic in CA, debadged new production models from Ford, Honda, Toyota, GM, and Nissan were presented. The Ford was picked most. After badges were replaced, the Ford was picked next to least.

It is an excercise in brand management. What makes Coca-Cola a desireable brand after a century? What makes Chevrolet an undesireable brand? If Coke made half of their sugar water products taste like skunk juice for a decade in the 70's and 80's, they probably would have gone out of business back then.

I don't want to sound like an apologist. I've worked as a contractor on projects for Ford, GM, Opel (I know...GM), Nissan, Toyota, Jag, etc. I agree with Hudson, tho. It's as much an image problem as a product problem.

Edit to add...if the Gov't is going to back up the warranties even in the event of bankrupcy/shutdown (how they do this without a parts network is beyond me, but if the President says they can do it, it must be true), then the "stigma" of bankrupcy is not going to hurt the companies any more than the damage they already suffered to their reputations, deserved or not.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2009 10:21AM by Lurch.

Josh Wimpey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> > it.
>
> The blame Fannie and Ffreddie game is ridiculous.
> Their portfolio contained less than 10% sub-prime
> mortgage backed assetts. FAR FAR Less than the
> non-government hybrid banks/mortgage houses
> etc...
>
> Plenty of other problems with Fannie and Freddie
> but pretending that they drove the sub-prime bus
> off the cliff is simply ignorant.

Oh no, you're wrong. I've read it all over the Intra-webz.
Even from people on here were explaining in near verbatim wording why "it was the dirty Democrats which forced the banks to make loans to all sorts of undesirables (by which the particular writer clearly meant to say NIGGERZ[[/b], but is adept at presenting a clean public front) and "immigrants!!!"

The guy went on to explain he made a lot more money than me, and that I looked like I don't have 2 dimes to rub together (ignoring the fact I have paid my mortgage on time for the 20 something years he's known me, and travelled and rallied, and had kids....) so obviously he must be right (seeing how I am so close to those "undesirables" he hates so much.)

And I've seen the same argument all over with references to places like "Freerebublic.org" which is a "Libertarian" site.

Same thing with all the Car Company problems.
The no1 problem is the bad workers and the evil Unions.
Regardless if the total wage cost for the Germans and Japanese and periodic exchange rate,and trans-oceanic transport, plus duties adds a per-unit penalty for the Germans and the Japanese, no siree, its the outrageous wage and benifit demands from those horrid Union memebers that strangles profitability..

Same guy explained all that....


So sorry Josh, you are wrong and this guy is right.




EXTREME Right

>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> __________-
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

None of the Big 3 make a car worth a shit. 3800 Buicks were the best offering. The rest crap. Chrysler amoung the worst. Intrepids, Neons noisy, unreliable. Focus is tinny and ugly. Cadillac Northstar..there ya go, $5k for head gaskets, $3-4K to fix the oil pan leak...put the starter under the intake manifold (clever).

The trucks are pretty good if you look past the little stuff, Ford spark plugs breaking off and $2000 tune ups. Dodges 4.7 and the head gaskets and Chevy and the rod knocks. None of the trannies are actually heavy enough. Crappy electronic transfer cases, hubs that fail early, GEM modules, forward lighting modules ( turn signals get flakey on a Windstar and it's a $400 module, neat. And the whole bazillion dollar fuel pump issues.

They have dug a big hole, might be best just to shove them in and cover it up.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> None of the Big 3 make a car worth a shit. 3800
> Buicks were the best offering. The rest crap.
> Chrysler amoung the worst. Intrepids, Neons noisy,
> unreliable. Focus is tinny and ugly. Cadillac
> Northstar..there ya go, $5k for head gaskets,
> $3-4K to fix the oil pan leak...put the starter
> under the intake manifold (clever).
>
> The trucks are pretty good if you look past the
> little stuff, Ford spark plugs breaking off and
> $2000 tune ups. Dodges 4.7 and the head gaskets
> and Chevy and the rod knocks. None of the trannies
> are actually heavy enough. Crappy electronic
> transfer cases, hubs that fail early, GEM modules,
> forward lighting modules ( turn signals get flakey
> on a Windstar and it's a $400 module, neat. And
> the whole bazillion dollar fuel pump issues.
>
> They have dug a big hole, might be best just to
> shove them in and cover it up.

Damn Gene, you know I don't work on modern shit and from the sounds of it its good I don't.

Maybe we'ze wuz smart to keep patching up old 20 year old Xratties and 240s.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I own a newish Ford F150 Supercab. Nice truck (don't drive it much cause of gas). We make some nice cars when they are newish. How do they hold up though?

Honda Fit > Tiny Chevy Junk
Civic > Cobalt or Focus
Tundra > F150 (even though I like mine)
BMW > Caddy
Miata > Pontiac convertible

Our cars are pretty good. But it's not just an image problem. Look at our autos from the 70's: Junk. 80's: Junk. 90's: Getting better, but still not nearly as good as foreign. 2000's: Better still. Sometimes better than imports maybe, but largely below that standard, and maybe 30 years to catch up is too long?

...Oh no, you're wrong. I've read it all over the Intra-webz.
Even from people on here were explaining in near verbatim wording why "it was the dirty Democrats which forced the banks to make loans to all sorts of undesirables (by which the particular writer clearly meant to say NIGGERZ[, but is adept at presenting a clean public front) and "immigrants!!!" ...

JVL: I haven't seen that post, but it sounds like the guy might be a jerk. You have one valid point: No one really knows the whole story. You think MSNBC gives it to you? How about NY Times? They'll give you the LEFT side for sure! But that wouldn't be the truth would it? Think Fox News gives you the real story? They'll give you the RIGHT side for sure. It's so freeking complicated it's hard for anyone to really understand, and it's easy to jump on and play devils advocate to either side.

But it boils down to this: Greedy companies lobbied greedy politicians to relax regulations. Stupid home buyers got in way over their heads (because they listened to greedy banks). In the mix was agendas like HUD. Good intentions gone bad. Typical government operation. IMO they need to stay out of that side, and try to enforce fair, safe banking regulations. We need people smarter than me in charge of that.
Sorry... but not everyone needs to own a house. I don't care what color you are, if you're not responsible, or you don't make enough to pay for the house you want then you better rent! It wasn't the Dems or Repubs... it was all of them.

There's actually nothing going amiss at all, Contrary to poplular opinion. I'ts being presented that way, but it's all being very subtly orchestrated. It just hurts my head to try to pay attention to all the facts, and different sectors that things happen, so I don't bother. This is purposeful, too, I think, make things so convoluted and complex that people don't want to pay attention anymore, and the final picture won't come into focus until it's too late.

I think it's more than just 'the auto industry' or the 'banking industry' or 'the oil industry' or 'the music industry' or the rice shortage, or the banana shortage, or any number of seemingly-unrelated issues.

I think there's a very powerful conspiracy's pieces finally gaining momentum, but I can't quite determine it yet.

Or, these thoughts may be products of reading too much science fiction.

I love how they're advertising cars 'EPA rated estimated 35mpg!' Um, yeah. My 19-year-old Mazda, with an upgraded engine (1.8dohc rather than the 1.6sohc) regularly gets 34mpg. Actual, not estimated. At a sustained 80mph, with me lead-footing it up to speed. See what this new economical awesome car gets at the same speed for the same amount of time, with the same acceleration. Ain't gonna happen. Why the HELL should I buy a new car, when I can get a 19-year old one for 275 bucks that performs better both in racing applications (autoX and track days), in fuel economy, in cargo space. New cars are ugly, heavy, handle like crap, have poor seating positions, have horrible visibility past the A-pillars and the rear-view mirror, and really aren't worth anything CLOSE to what we have to pay for them. Then we get bent over and fisted with 'mandatory" insurance costs, as well.

meh. I must be in a bad mood for some reason. I should take a nap.

--sarge

---

---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

I must be stupid and easy to please. I keep buying US cars and like them....go figure.

So rant on if you want a segment of the US economy to go away and have high unemployment in MI and that region for years to come. I am sure that many ranting here would sing the opposite tune if it were THEIR jobs on the line.

And keep in mind: the US has been losing wealth creation abilites gradually over a long time. One wealth creating activity is manufacturing. Want to geuss where much of the US wealth creating activity has shifted to? Finance! That very same industry that many here are complaining about and has been a large cause of the economic mess.

So do you want to concentrate more of the US wealth creating activity to finance (basically, getting interest on loans), or try to get it a bit more back into balance by supporting domestic manufacturing? \

And so everyone understands the concept of weath creating activities: We have some natural resources extraction (minerals, coals, oil, gas); we have some manufacturing wealth creation in all the factories we do have. Farming is a wealth creation activity. Energy generation is also. Technology/engineering is also, when we can sell it to others. The building industry is also much about wealth creation.

What are not wealth creation? Any maintenance activity: much of health care, auto repair, highway maintenance, home repair, and similar.

Why care about wealth creation? Simply that we have more poeple here every day. Spread the same wealth, and every one gets poorer and your children have a lower standard of living than you. With all the other things that folks may want to do with the nation's wealth, and how they want it distributed, few people at all will elect for less wealth and a lower standard of living.

So why support the US auto industry? It is a big part of US manufacturing, and more importnatly, wealth creation for the country. Ship it to Japan and Europe and you provide wealth creation activities for them, and not fur us. Not that they are not equally deserving, but they will expend their wealth creation on themselves long before us.

The US auto industry is part of the balance to play on what you want retained for wealth creation. Keep in mind that not everyone can be a high tech person or manager like so many folks on this forum; some jobs for those who don't care or can't be PhD's is important, IMO.

Regards,
Mark B.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ....the Big 3 ....have dug a big hole, might be best just to
> shove them in and cover it up.


If they didn't bulldoze that shit-hole New Orleans,
they ain't gonna bury the big 3.