john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So pretty clear that those unburdened from the
> need to buy, build and pay to run cars can do lots
> of events----sitting in the other side.
>
> Must not be sharing enough of the overall burden.

For the first three months of 2002, I spent almost every other evening at Ross Foster's grandparents house, helping to build the first car. Concerned about Ross' attention to detail, I kept the car at my house and worked on it every day for the two weeks leading up to our second event together. One set of tires came off of my TSD car. We alternated paying entry fees and hotel. We did things very cheaply to be able to afford 12 events (I did a one-off ride with Roland McIvor, who did things even cheaper than Ross).

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So pretty clear that those unburdened from the
> need to buy, build and pay to run cars can do lots
> of events----sitting in the other side.

I typically only competed with the driver I normally co-drove for, so we did the same number of events. On a couple of occasions I have co-driven for other people who were in need of a co-driver and one-off arrangements were made.

The 'burden' sharing is a team issue alone and will vary according to a range of factors.
Could it be that the service crew isn't sharing their part of the overall burden? How about the supplier of the sooper-bitchin suspenders... is he kicking in his part of the event costs?

The fact is that almost all teams are driven by the driver's desire to go racing. The rest of the team is there to support that desire and their participation is based on a range of factors.

BTW John, either I missed it or you forgot to post how many events you compete in every year.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
>
> BTW John, either I missed it or you forgot to post
> how many events you compete in every year.
>

How many do i have to?
Try nearly continous every weekend, and 2-3 times a week in addition from 1968 thru 1997, and peak years about average 5-6 International events per month.
Rally, being a fun passtime I averaged about 3 maybe 4 events a year from 1986 thru 1997 tapering to average 3 as work load and enthusiasm waned in inverse proportion to doubling and more of entry fees multplied by the ruduction of stage milage to accomodate a new, softer, pussiefied generation of primarily white collar office sorts driving oh shit turbo 4wd cars.

You have no idea, smug fucker.
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many do i have to?
Stop feeling so insecure. Nobody said you had to compete in any events. Just wanted to bring you back on topic with the thread.

> Try nearly continous every weekend, and 2-3 times a week in addition from 1968 thru 1997, and peak years about average 5-6 International events per month.

Rally events? (being that this is a rally forum it is implied that the events competed in would be rally events)

> Rally, being a fun pastime I averaged about 3 maybe 4 events a year from 1986 thru 1997 tapering to average 3 as work load and enthusiasm waned ...

Cool. I knew you had done some rallying but never really knew how much. That's a respectable run. (As a side note, mileage reduction has more to do with road availability / permissions and worker availability than it does the pussification of the sport.)

> You have no idea, smug fucker.
Neither do you.
Difference is that I am willing to ask questions, listen to - and give genuine consideration to - answers and give context for my opinions. You, on the other hand expect people to instantly grant you guru status and when people don't bow down to your 'authority' you get all pissy.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Sorry, I was a little busy this last weekend or I woulda tried to sort this out sooner. I guess my question was a little vague and needed to be broken up into multiple questions:

1) How many events per year do you go to as a competitor where you are in some way a major contributor to prepping the car, transporting it, paying fees, buying tires, etc?

2) How many events per year do you go to as a competitor where you are primarily in an arrive'n'(co)drive role? Maybe you're a hired gun. Maybe you split some of entry fees and book hotels and so on. One way or the other, you never really see the car until the weekend of the event.

3) How many events per year do you go to as a volunteer, either working the event or crewing for someone? You pay your own way out of your own pocket with little or no expectation of reimbursement. And yeah, Dave, if you made notes for an event, I'd count that as working the event, even though it happens prior to the actual event date.


And I'd ask "how many events per year you organize?" but I'm too scared to hear Anders's answer.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

1) 0-3 stage rally events. 1-3 TSD's, 1-2 Rallyx's, 1-2 Autox's, on average for the last 10 years.

2) 1 per year for the last 3 years, codriving.

3) Probably 2 per year for rallies on average for the last 10 years, started as a marshall, then crew, now more into helping the organizing committees. I also usually end up doing the scoring and timing at any local autox/rallyx's I go to as it seems I'm the only one who can remember how to work the timing equipment.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
...pussiefied generation of
> primarily white collar office sorts driving oh
> shit turbo 4wd cars.
>
> You have no idea, smug fucker.
> >
> >

hey, don't knock it till you try it! although my turbo 4WD drive isn't really "oh shit"

hoche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, I was a little busy this last weekend or I
> woulda tried to sort this out sooner. I guess my
> question was a little vague and needed to be
> broken up into multiple questions:
>
> 1) How many events per year do you go to as a
> competitor where you are in some way a major
> contributor to prepping the car, transporting it,
> paying fees, buying tires, etc?


Hopefully 2 this year in 09
>
> 2) How many events per year do you go to as a
> competitor where you are primarily in an
> arrive'n'(co)drive role? Maybe you're a hired gun.
> Maybe you split some of entry fees and book hotels
> and so on. One way or the other, you never really
> see the car until the weekend of the event.
>

2 co-dirver gigs in 2008. split entry fees and hotel rooms both times.


> 3) How many events per year do you go to as a
> volunteer, either working the event or crewing for
> someone? You pay your own way out of your own
> pocket with little or no expectation of
> reimbursement. And yeah, Dave, if you made notes
> for an event, I'd count that as working the event,
> even though it happens prior to the actual event
> date.
>
crewed for Eli Gilbert in '07...my first event EVAR!

edit: and I should add, no matter what, I'm going to NNR and Idaho in '09....I'm sure I'll end up crewing for someone if I can't get a co-driver gig, otherwise, I'll be volunteering.


>
> And I'd ask "how many events per year you
> organize?" but I'm too scared to hear Anders's
> answer.

I've organized 2 rallyX's ....LOL

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2009 01:27AM by Jon Burke.

DirkaDirkaJack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> ...pussiefied generation of
> > primarily white collar office sorts driving
> oh
> > shit turbo 4wd cars.
> >
> > You have no idea, smug fucker.
> > >
> > >
>
> hey, don't knock it till you try it! although my
> turbo 4WD drive isn't really "oh shit"

Obviously I have tried it.
I do have a nice rally prepped Cosworth 4x4.

It is amazingly easy to drive very fast, and very aggressively, even in street tires.
Plus we have now 20 years of seeing people with zero previous gravel rally background getting into well built turbo 4wd cars and immediately doing top 5-6 overall stage times.
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Obviously I have tried it.
> I do have a nice rally prepped Cosworth 4x4.

But, how did you do in competition with it?
All sorts of newbies show up in their expensive subabishis only to have their asses roundly handed to them by well sorted G2 cars being driven by drivers with relatively good talent and are absolutely obliterated by good drivers in lower spec AWD cars.

You know well enough that pissing around on the streets or running the car in rallycrosses doesn't tell you squat about how it will run on the stages and that is where most people starting in the sport make their first mistake. "I'm always winning rallycrosses so I'm going to be fast on stage right out of the box."

> It is amazingly easy to drive very fast, and very aggressively, even in street tires.
But racing is about pushing the machinery to the limit of it's potential. Just because you don't get to the point where the challenges come in doesn't mean they aren't there. As someone who has driven both in competition I can assure you that AWD rally is a very different game than RWD rally. (That's different, not easier)


> Plus we have now 20 years of seeing people with zero previous gravel rally
> background getting into well built turbo 4wd cars and immediately doing
> top 5-6 overall stage times.

You normally love to point out the relatively low bar that is set for competition in North America, wouldn't you think this is a bigger part of that equation than AWD being that much easier to drive? (not to mention that if everyone is in AWD cars then shouldn't they all be easy to drive fast?)
Top 5-6 overall in a RA or top 4 in a CARS national today would need some serious attrition to break into without some good effort and training.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison "The Troll" Wrote obviously trying to start more pointless arguments like the asshole he is:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Obviously I have tried it.
> > I do have a nice rally prepped Cosworth 4x4.
>
> But, how did you do in competition with it?
I have not entered an event with it.


Since that car was done the No1 priority was getting moved back to Seattle.
winding down a business, throwing away 7-8 tons of stuff, packing another 4-5 tons, towing away 1 car, returning for the next, during the time, and since fighting a battle with what only a month ago know to be several crushed discs at the top and bottom of the spine, with nerves going both out and in pinched.

Once back, finding a house with some sort of decent shop space was of course highest priority because I sorta pay the rent building things and even if I was having enormous difficulties even seeing straight, doing something else never occurred to me.

Then I met, and romanced and married a wonderful, brave, pretty woman in Jan 03 and then the focus of necessity shifted to getting her settled, and into University to get a US Degree and on top of that, somehow we had first one beautiful girl, Anna, and, as of 2 years ago on this date, another beautiful girl Natasha.
And all along, as dear wifey was doing full time last 2 years of University,
while pregnant
in a foreign language
in her mid 30s
doing math courses aimed at research Psyc and statistics, and Cellular Chem
riding the bus 2 hours each way.....
I was taking care of Anna and then the both girls.

During this time as the obviousness of the situation regarding the crushed disc/pinched nerves finally sunk in, I shifted to manufacturing suspension and connecting rods for Volvo engines, and building engines (including one for Pat Richard way back and Dave Hintz's Regional Championship winning EJ20T).



Thus, even a pig-headed ass like you can see that there were other important things in real life much more important than playing with my own car.



> All sorts of newbies show up in their expensive
> subabishis only to have their asses roundly handed
> to them by well sorted G2 cars being driven by
> drivers with relatively good talent and are
> absolutely obliterated by good drivers in lower
> spec AWD cars.

Really!!!??? I never knew that!



>
> You know well enough that pissing around on the
> streets or running the car in rallycrosses doesn't
> tell you squat about how it will run on the stages
> and that is where most people starting in the
> sport make their first mistake. "I'm always
> winning rallycrosses so I'm going to be fast on
> stage right out of the box."


Man you like talking.

Sorry Morison but my comments, in 1998, were based on my having driven just prior to some top 3 OA National stage times in my old 1969 car, top 10 OA National results, Gp2 class wins,, and having driven that and plenty of other well sorted FWD (National Championship winning Gp2 cars back when there were more than one person towing to a few events) and RWD cars, at that point having about 14 seasons in properly prepared cars, and a further 20 on motorcycles driving on loose surfaces.

>
> > It is amazingly easy to drive very fast, and
>> very aggressively, even in street tires.
> But racing is about pushing the machinery to the
> limit of it's potential.

See, this is where I think you a stupid opinionated PUTZ.
Your immediately preceding comments were just typical bullshit assumptions, but this is flat stupid.

You're a fucking photographer, and you have played at rallying a few years

Yet you make these FLAT STATEMENTS AS MATTERS OF FACT.

Geeeebus, here I was thinking for all these fucking 40 years that racing was testing ME, since I was, and remain, the biggest variable.

The stupid assertion above arrogantly IMPLIES that YOU or somebody CAN push "the machinery" to it's limits. (Well since you love those POS Sub-a-rats so much I guess when the POS trannies blow up yet again for the 12-13th time you MUST BE as FAST AS McRAE, cause you pushed the macinery past its limits!!! Teee heeee)


Sorry Morison I had that silly childish idea of "pushing the machinery to the limits" bitch-slapped outta me by time I was 19.

Thankfully.

The bitch-slappers were guys who could win or finish top 4 in World Championship moto-cross, and I had the privilege to share garage and club house space with them.
So if ever there was talk of "pushing the machinery to..." or whining about being held back by the machinery then these guy would let out a HOOT of surprise , to be quickly followed by a conk on the head and if I foolishly persisted a withering explanation why the problem was WHO WAS RIDING THE BIKE.
They after all were riding things only infinitesimal degrees better or some even the same bikes. Pretty hard to argue with them about that.

Pretty fucking obvious that if anybody was pushing "the macinery" to "the limits" then their speeds would be between the top WRC Group N guys and the worst GpA guys, not as it STILL is, the much repeated, over used, and metaphorically wrong "sharp end of the stick" being light years, HOURS behind the best of the GroupN guys.




>Just because you don't
> get to the point where the challenges come in
> doesn't mean they aren't there.

Jeeze, didn't I just explain to you above that the challenge is testing A PERSON's, you me the next guy's DRIVING ability?

You see, it is phrasing things like that, you, a mere photographer flatly stating what the challenges is, and then telling somebody who has been racing about as long as you have been alive that they don't get what the challenge is is why I class you as a deluded, arrogant asshole. And a bullshitter.

Had you said anything like "Well, to me it seems.........", then there would a chance for discussion and to suggest alternate view points based on different and broader perspective that you don't even conceive of.

But nope, as you have since Day 1, you state things FLAT.

You know what "it's all about". Oi.



As someone who has
> driven both in competition I can assure you that
> AWD rally is a very different game than RWD rally.
> (That's different, not easier)

Well you've driven both in some extremely low level competition, so you must be the final authority.
>
>
> > Plus we have now 20 years of seeing people
> with zero previous gravel rally
> > background getting into well built turbo 4wd
> cars and immediately doing
> > top 5-6 overall stage times.
>
> You normally love to point out the relatively low
> bar that is set for competition in North America,


No I say that what is reached the by even the best here is barely the lowest rungs of the ladder by any BROADER measure. (and this because they are insulated and don't have to try much harder, and so they don't develop as well as drivers where there are deeper fields, deeper by multiples of 5-6 times.)

If the rich guys would or could deal with the enormous embarrassment of getting their asses stomped for a few years, there's no reason to believe they couldn't improve, but after the mountains of hype and hearing themselves called "Super Stars" it is clearly hard to get massacred by dozens and dozens and dozens of unknown locals so, as we have seen, much ballyhoo-ed long range plans to conquor the world are quietly shelved, and they return to being Big Fish in a small BUCKET.


> wouldn't you think this is a bigger part of that
> equation than AWD being that much easier to drive?

I don't quite follow what you're point is.
I know that many other right thru the last generation of WRC elite readily acknowledge that current cars, bot GpN and GroupA are easy, and say things like "They nearly drive themselves".

> (not to mention that if everyone is in AWD cars
> then shouldn't they all be easy to drive fast?)

Well obviously.
Years ago there were just a few decently built turbo 4wd cars: Buffum's Quattro, Kreibich's Quattro, Woodner's Peugeot, Millens later Mazdas.

Now there are a couple of dozen similar level CARS, doesn't mean though that the drivers are any good.
It says that virtually anybody who can drive a manual shift car and find or has a budget to build and run a current 4wd turbo car can go approximately "this fast".
Hardly a surprise.

> Top 5-6 overall in a RA or top 4 in a CARS
> national today would need some serious attrition
> to break into without some good effort and
> training.

Sheer numbers now. Not quality.
Your point?
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pretty fucking obvious that if anybody was pushing
> "the macinery" to "the limits" then their speeds
> would be between the top WRC Group N guys and the
> worst GpA guys, not as it STILL is, the much
> repeated, over used, and metaphorically wrong
> "sharp end of the stick" being light years, HOURS
> behind the best of the GroupN guys.

When Travis ran the Mexico PWRC rally in 2007, he finished 5th, 8 minutes behind the PWRC winner and a half hour behind the WRC winner (Loeb). Not bad for a first try.

john vanlandingham puffed out his chest and wrote, while thumping away madly in a display of his greatness:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not entered an event with it.
OK, so we don't know if you were driving it quickly or not ... nuff said.

> Since that car was done the No1 priority was ... blah blah blah ... life happens ... etc. etc.

Congrats on a nice and healthy family and kudos for doing the 'mr. mom' thing! I am sure that your daughters are a source of joy and happiness for you.

> Thus, even [someone] like you can see that
> there were other important things in real life
> much more important than playing with my own car.

Yup, without a doubt.

> > All sorts of newbies show up in their...
> Really!!!??? I never knew that!

See, we actually agree on something and you take an aggressive and argumentative position. How can you accuse me of just being here to argue?

> Man you like talking.
Another 'takes one to know one' comment - at least I have a point behind what I am saying instead of rambling on about tangential minutiae with no real relevance.


> Sorry Morison but my comments, in 1998, were based on ...
But without running the car in competition you really don't have a clue if you would have been any more competitive in it than you were in your 2wd car. You know it felt fast and easy to drive but you can't possibly know if that would have translated into fast stage times.

> See, this is where I think you a stupid opinionated PUTZ.

Then again, I will admit to not explaining what I meant very well.
Clearly the game is about challenging the team to do their best and to work together to meet the challenges the roads present. (I thought this was a given.) That said, as your skills improve you start to reach the limit of the machinery (even if that limit is caused by poor prep, poor set-up, bad tires, or a plain tired shell)

> to be quickly followed by a
> conk on the head and if I foolishly persisted a
> withering explanation why the problem was WHO WAS
> RIDING THE BIKE.

Agreed. I am one who always pushes driver training over 'adding more power' to a car.

> Jeeze, didn't I just explain to you above that the
> challenge is testing A PERSON's, you me the next
> guy's DRIVING ability?
Uh, ya. And I agree with you but you're reacting to a comment I wrote before your comment as if I had written it in response to your comment ... um ... chill out dude.

> You see, it is phrasing things like that, you, a
> mere photographer flatly stating what the
> challenges is and then telling somebody who has
> been racing about as long as you have been alive
> that they don't get what the challenge is is why I
> class you as a deluded, arrogant asshole. And a
> bullshitter.
Good thing that I don't give a damn how you class me.

> Had you said anything like "Well, to me it seems.........",

Sorry, I though that would be implied. We are on an internet discussion forum and it is clear that we are all only expressing our own opinions. I'm always open to other viewpoints but don't ever expect me to take what anyone says with blind faith. (Just as I don't expect anyone else to blindly accept what I say)

> But nope, as you have since Day 1, you state things FLAT.
And you state things loudly and bullishly in an attempt to bully your positions into people. So what?

> Well you've driven both in some extremely low level competition, so you must be the final authority.

Yes, extremely low level competition, and for not long enough to really get comfortable in the cars or make the most of myself or the machinery. BUT, I have still driven both in competition.

> No I say that what is reached the by even the best
> here is barely the lowest rungs of the ladder by
> any BROADER measure.

Although that is clearly no longer the case.


> (and this because they are insulated and don't have to try much harder, and
> so they don't develop as well as drivers where > there are deeper fields,
> deeper by multiples of 5-6 times.)

Absolutely, fully agree and would add that there aren't the sheer number of events to be had to also develop the skills.

> If the rich guys would or could deal with the enormous embarrassment of ... being Big Fish in a small BUCKET.

Maybe, just maybe, that's enough for them.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

john vanlandingham obsessed about:

> You're a fucking photographer, and you have played at rallying a few years

The way you cling on to what you perceive as facts reminds me a lot of Pete Morris over on SS.com.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

"Once back, finding a house with some sort of decent shop space was of course highest priority because I sorta pay the rent building things and even if I was having enormous difficulties even seeing straight, doing something else never occurred to me."

I'm pretty sure that you told me that your place used to be your Dad's ?

Now I'm all confused...