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Don\
Morison
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 11:46AM
The interesting thing is that, at least when its dry, if you go to a forest a week after a rally has been you probably can't tell we were there. One of the roads used in BC a while ago welcomed rallies because they improved the road.
Compared to the intended use of the road, our footprint is negligible.

'but we still have a footprint' you say.

Yes, but what has been expressed to me as a concern of organisers is that if we engage the 'greens' to help find a good and workable solution, the net result will be human chains across the stage starts.

That said, I agree that we need to look at being more eco friendly.

CARS is looking at classes or competitions with an eco element.
RA has created a class that looks at carbon production as a factor.

I have no doubt there is more we can do. As always, we need people willing to step up and make these ideas happen. (IE: if someone were to research how to fund tree planting and get the information to Paul Westwick with a suggested 'eco-levy' that is both reasonable and manageable then it might well find its way into the WCRA events. Don't expect the already over tasked organiser to dig up that info on his own.



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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2009 11:51AM by Morison.
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Do It Sidewayz
Chris Martin
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 11:56AM
> CARS is looking at classes or competitions with an
> eco element.
> RA has created a class that looks at carbon
> production as a factor.


CARS (and OPRC) also have 2 Open Class cars running E-85 in a sea of Race fuel spuing beasts.





Chris
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john vanlandingham
John Vanlandingham
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 12:07PM
Simpson Timber commisioned a study on erosion and the intent was to establish the effect of traffic on theirt forest roads and that traffics contribution to sedimentation.
To have any idea they needed a base line and so as a control they chose an area of their woods where ZERO traffic or logging activity at all was being carried out.
Difference was, aftre more than a year, less than 2%.
That puzzled them, no traffic and essential same sedimentation.

So they began looking closer at where the sediment was coming from.

In the end it was found that the sedimentation came primarily from these:



And areas like this:



Good example:


In other words the erosion, and subsequent sedimentation of rally cars, a few of us yahopos driving by once or twice a year is but a tiny tiny % of less than 1 %, while 97-98% comes from the simple exsistance of the exsisting road cuttings or embankments.

Of course a report like that had to be binned.

Our eco impact is 1/1000th of the impact of the gas consumed by beer sodden spectators at one silly football or baseball game at the stupid stadiums in Seattle, not to mention the effect the stadiums alone have.

It is true there is some eco-impact, but like a lot of "True" facts it lacks any measurable, meaningful significance.

Collectively, we should stop cowering and wringing our hands about "the other side", we should force THEM to provide proof of significant and lasting damage.
And the only way to do that is in the courts.

DNR, State Forest managers, National Forest managers should be forced to abide with the mission statements of their bureaucracies which state some gibberish about "encourage and develop the multiple uses of the Nations Forest resources".





John Vanlandingham
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Morten2
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 12:23PM
It seems that the only way to facilite change in North America is to loddy governments at various levels.

If rally is being turned away at the forest gate, then why not lobby to open the gate ?

I wonder how many people in North America have an interest in Rally ?

Drivers, Co-Drivers, service, business's who work on rally cars, manufacturers of parts, organisers, spectators, etc... I wonder what the combined number is ?

Any guesses ?

If there's a common interest, much like the NRA has a common interest (only us on a MUCH smaller scale) in lobbying, marketing, etc.

If a lobby group was possible and if everyone involved pitched in $25+ a year and got some stupid hat, a bumper sticker, or t-shirt turned shop rag - this may be the first step to facilite change.

AND... since I'm on this idea of a co-hesive unit...

Why is it that there are multiple rally organizations in North America with differing rules ?

Would the very survival of rallying and it's growth be preferential if there was a common standard and we all worked together.

Or would that just create a pissing match ?
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NoCoast
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 01:36PM
I think 4 or 5 of the top Open Class cars in Colorado are running E-85 now.
Dave Kern's Evo has 315 hp and 450 ft. lbs on E85 with a 34 mm restrictor. 100-150 more of each without the restrictor.



Grant Hughes
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Anders Green
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 01:43PM
Wrote... deleted. Wrote again... deleted. Someone else have a go at it. grinning smiley

Anders



Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.
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fiasco
Andrew Steere
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 02:02PM
Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrote... deleted. Wrote again... deleted. Someone
> else have a go at it.
>
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0


Corporate and political interests make starting new events challenging at best. An area town banned motorsport activites within its borders as a result of mutterings of a rallycross possibly happening in a field in town. The idea had already been shot down because the group ran into (what amounted to) club political infighting with regards to getting insurance.

I think the only way to get a new event in New England off the ground is to own a LOT of land and/or be in the middle of NOWHERE so you can run under the radar. I'm sure the feds and a lot of states would love to suck every bit of fun out of anything having to do with internal combustion engines, if for no other reason than it's a political power trip in the name of being green (apologies to PJ O'Rourke). Never mind that volcano up in Alaska spewing more crud into the atmosphere in a day than all the rally cars and snowmobiles in the world have in a century (and I'm all for making stuff run as clean as it can). Or that ten years of rallying has less of an effect on rally roads than a week of logging traffic.

Besides, this stuff is too damned expensive to compete in if you have a mortgage and/or kids.

Ugh. I hit post before I was finished thinking and editing. Here, read this.



Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2009 02:03PM by fiasco.
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Dazed_Driver
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 02:03PM
john vanlandingham Wrote:

> Our eco impact is 1/1000th of the impact of the
> gas consumed by beer sodden spectators at one
> silly football or baseball game at the stupid
> stadiums in Seattle, not to mention the effect the
> stadiums alone have.


I'm honestly not trying to argue, why do you call the stadiums stupid? Do you just not like the sports?



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fiasco
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 02:11PM
Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
>
> > Our eco impact is 1/1000th of the impact of
> the
> > gas consumed by beer sodden spectators at
> one
> > silly football or baseball game at the
> stupid
> > stadiums in Seattle, not to mention the
> effect the
> > stadiums alone have.
>
>
> I'm honestly not trying to argue, why do you call
> the stadiums stupid? Do you just not like the
> sports?
>
> Feisty Peacock?

It's probably a side effect of living in Bah-Stun, where legions of rabid Red Sox and Patriots fans get into their stick and ball teams like some of us obsess about rally.

Also, when environmental impact is the political buzzword, motorsports usually gets all negative press, when even the biggest NASCAR race has about the same environmental footprint as a typical NFL game. The race cars are a drop in the bucket, it's the 50,000 cars getting to and from the event that make the impact.

Fifty rally cars, their service trucks, workers, and spectators probably have less of an environmental impact than a large high school football game. Yet the gearheads get demonized by the greenies.

And you never hear about shutting down the NFL for environmental reasons.






Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY
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john vanlandingham
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 09:25PM
Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
>
> > Our eco impact is 1/1000th of the impact of
> the
> > gas consumed by beer sodden spectators at
> one
> > silly football or baseball game at the
> stupid
> > stadiums in Seattle, not to mention the
> effect the
> > stadiums alone have.
>
>
> I'm honestly not trying to argue, why do you call
> the stadiums stupid? Do you just not like the
> sports?


Because I pay for 2 of the fucking stadiums after they were voted down 3 times.

Further:
because sports owned by multi-millionaires, played by multi-millionaires receive tax deferments, tax subsidies, and an endless list of freebies and perks that I pay for. Fuck them.

Come on, 2 fucking stadiums across the street from one another?

Again, if they are for profit enterprises, then why are the taxpayers giveing multi-millionaires all the freebies----and don't say they bring business to the "City", they don't bring ME any business.

And no, I have never had any interest in seeing adults play at childrens games and the absurd excesses attendant. "Team" or "hometown" bullshit is just more manufactured hype. Pfft. Fuck them, fuck the "fans".

And shoot the assholes in the City and County "government" who gave all this shit away.



>
> Feisty Peacock?






John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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Dazed_Driver
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 09:53PM
oh. Just curious



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heymagic
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 10:00PM
Citizens paying for a frickin stadium for a professional profit reaping team and then having to pay again to actually watch the team is seriously bullshit. Citizens having to pay for said stadium with no interest in watching said sport is a frickin crime beyond belief.


Back to the eco thing, I'm with the don't admit to damaging anything school of thought. The whole carbon foot print thing is total BS. Tax my car, tax my gas, I'll drive as much as I can afford and leave me to hell alone. It amazes me how many eco-nazis drive cars to a protest or ride a bus. Wear factory made clothes, destroy property, set fires, spread garbage in streets and do every destructive polluting act imaginable. Carbon footprint BS just gives them some undeserved validity. And tell those girls to shave...
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Morten2
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 01, 2009 11:39PM
fiasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anders Green Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Wrote... deleted. Wrote again... deleted.
> Someone
> > else have a go at it.
> >
> > Anders
> >
> > Raleigh, NC
> > Impreza H6 3.0
>
>
> Corporate and political interests make starting
> new events challenging at best. An area town
> banned motorsport activites within its borders as
> a result of mutterings of a rallycross possibly
> happening in a field in town.

I think we must be too uptight in North America.





The owner of this house says he would welcome another rally, even after this incident.

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Rallymech
Robert Gobright
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 02, 2009 10:11AM
I'm honestly not trying to argue, why do you call the stadiums stupid? Do you just not like the sports?

I do not want to have my tax money fund a private business. Twice!

Robert.



Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.
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starion887
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Re: Events, or lack of...
May 02, 2009 10:53AM
> AND... since I'm on this idea of a co-hesive
> unit...
>
> Why is it that there are multiple rally
> organizations in North America with differing
> rules ?
>
> Would the very survival of rallying and it's
> growth be preferential if there was a common
> standard and we all worked together.
>
> Or would that just create a pissing match ?

The latter, IMO. Who ends up controlling who and what? Whose sincerely and well thoughts out ideas get eliminated? Ultimately there are different objectives and different goals and personalities in each sanctioning body, and they want to go their own ways, IMO.

As for the eco groups, I am of the smae mind as Morison seems to be: keep a healthy distance. We tried an event in the Jefferson National Forest in VA in 1993 and it got shot down by irrational and virulent objections from the eco groups. The USNF was not interested in promoting our cause in the face of much, much stronger political influence. I DON"T expect a reasonalbe attitude from the eco groups. Face it, we are small and do not have the hundreds of millions in legal funds that the eco groups possess. And, SCCA ProRally was part of an organization called 'Tread Lightly' for a few years in the 80's, which was supported by other offroad motor groups. (Did nothing that I know of; and we need to not be associated with off-road groups anyway; we are 'on-road' users.)

Regards,
Mark B.


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