Middle-age complaining..

Mike Mc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Okay, let's start with this ONE thing. I'm
> willing to put up or shut up. Does RA need a
> volunteer to try to push forward a worker
> information/training/credentialing program? If
> such a thing happens, how do you folks on this
> board want to see it implemented? Ideas?

The thing is, if you want to comment on the way that RA does things, it would more productive to comment on the RA forums or send e-mail to a RA official like Niday. The people who are in a position to change much of this stuff at RA do not read stuff here.

FWIW, I am the RA Rules Committee. I edit the rule book and write the Bulletins.

One area that I would fault RA is not putting together a worker database that events can use to recruit workers. The Gibeault worker database is pretty nice and shows the benefits of having something like that.

As far as worker training, I am not sure who should take responsibility for it because there are some significant differences between how things are done between the different parts of the country. Maybe RA could provide baseline material that regions could modify for how things are done in the region. (I think that there would be an outcry if RA tried to enforce uniform worker and operations standards for all events.)

If you want to volunteer, tell RA.

alan

Alan, I'm using the forums that I think will generate the most results. Take that as you will.

We have common ground on the worker database idea. Lets start with that idea, and see what others have to say on that.

That fact that things vary from region to region is an inadequate excuse for not having training guides available. Because one area has always done things one particular way does not mean it is the only way or the best way. Canada to America changes, OK. NASA to RA to USRC changes, regrettable, but tolerable. Region to region differences under the same sanctioning body, just makes no sense to me.

You must have missed the part where I had stated I had been a volunteer for 15 years.
I did not effect much change then, so now I'm doing something different. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing ove and over and expect different results.

Mike Mc

Alan,

FYI, I am working Mt. Trials Rally and they are paying for my hotel room. Pretty good deal in my opinion. If they can do it R.A. can.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alan,
>
> FYI, I am working Mt. Trials Rally and they are
> paying for my hotel room. Pretty good deal in my
> opinion. If they can do it R.A. can.
>
> Robert.

So Robert..is CARS paying for your room or is Mt.Trials Rally paying for your room?

You have been around more than long enough to understand the difference between a sanctioning body and an organizing committee.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alan,
>
> FYI, I am working Mt. Trials Rally and they are
> paying for my hotel room. Pretty good deal in my
> opinion. If they can do it R.A. can.
>
> Robert.

Please note that the Mt. Trials Rally/WCRA is paying for your room, not CARS (the Canadian rally sanction body).

Come to the Wild West wrap-up meeting and see if there is money in the budget for rooms for all workers.

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > run.
>
> Rallies are break-even events at best. Where is
> the money gonna come from?
Where?

hmm, dunno....




I sure see a lot of logos there.....lots of marketing value, which goes away if the series goes away if events are not sustainable because workers don't come back.

Its not even like those guys have to come up with a ton of money. $5K/event for workers is plenty. Tell them its a 'park your big ass 18-wheeler rig in our parking lot' fee.



>
> Perhaps you should attend some rally organizer
> meetings so that you can understand the
> relationship between the organizer and the
> sanctioning body and who is responsible for what
> before getting all pissy about things like this.
>
> > How long do you think
> baseball/football/basketball
> > would last if all the people at the
> gates/ticket
> > booths were suddenly told they were
> 'volunteers'?
>
> I have been a "Race Management" volunteer at the
> Long Beach Grand Prix (CART) and the Del Mar Grand
> Prix (IMSA). Note that I said "volunteer". I got
> a shirt and lunch. That's it. And there were
> more volunteers than there were positions
> available.
>
> A friend of mine was a flagger. He didn't even
> get a t-shirt and had to buy his own uniform.
>
good for you and your friends, and good for those sports (seriously, no sarcasm there).

But the last time I checked, they're doing pretty good compared to rally....they're also sit-on-your-ass-and-drink-your-beer stadium sports. (and there's nothing wrong with that, I've been to the LBGP, its a great time)

At least it seemed like they're doing good, when I went to the San Jose Grand Prix and weekend tickets were +$150.


you also don't see me, Grant and Timmay scraping together parts for an F1 racecar and getting our asses kicked by some w/the last name Schumacher.


and you avoided the main sports like baseball, basketball, etc...which need hundreds of PAID workers to make it run per event. Sure, the ball boys down on the field hanging out with the ball teams are volunteers, but they're not out in the middle of the forest, waiting for a car to come, by themselves, they're in the middle of everything.


Alan, don't get me wrong, I LOVE the fact that hopefully next year or in 2011 I can go to OTR or Rally Colorado and line up next to the big boys....I CAN;T do that with baseball, F1, basketball, etc.

But when the future of the entire sport seems to be on a 'lifeline'...then something needs to change. Obviously there are companies out there that are willing to dump money into the drivers/cars....but for that to continue, there needs to be events, so logically, shouldn't someone at RA approach those companies and say 'hey....we need some help.'


So I'm not being 'pissy', I'm just stating fact....its RETARDED that the ENTIRE FUCKING SPORT seems to be at risk, when there's piles of money walking around the events.

What good is going to an organizers meeting going to do? This is for the eniture SPORT/SERIES. RA needs to either 1) Hire a Director or VP or executive of business development and sponsorships, or fire the guy that currently does it and get a new one.


just my .02.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

There are not piles of money walking around the events. Maybe more money than you have but not what you think.

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tipo158 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Rallies are break-even events at best. Where is
> > the money gonna come from?
>
> Where?
>
> hmm, dunno....

[picture of various competitors deleted]

> I sure see a lot of logos there.....lots of
> marketing value, which goes away if the series
> goes away if events are not sustainable because
> workers don't come back.

There are plenty of venues for those companies to spend their marketing money at. They don't need rally.

> Its not even like those guys have to come up with
> a ton of money. $5K/event for workers is plenty.
> Tell them its a 'park your big ass 18-wheeler rig
> in our parking lot' fee.

How many rallies have a venue with enough traffic to merit a $5K/weekend 'park your rolling advert' fee? How many rallies have a closed venue where they couldn't just park their rolling advert across the street for free?

> [ quote from me concerning volunteers at big-name motorsports deleted ]
>
> But the last time I checked, they're doing pretty
> good compared to rally....they're also
> sit-on-your-ass-and-drink-your-beer stadium
> sports. (and there's nothing wrong with that, I've
> been to the LBGP, its a great time)
>
> At least it seemed like they're doing good, when I
> went to the San Jose Grand Prix and weekend
> tickets were +$150.

Yeah and if we had some way to charge $150 for people to sit in the woods, how do you think people would respond to that?

> and you avoided the main sports like baseball,
> basketball, etc...

No, I did not avoid it. I have no idea whether they are paid or not.

However, I do know about volunteering for the 2010 Olympics. No pay and you need to find your own place to stay, which shouldn't be too hard, right? There are probably lots of cheap places to stay in Whistler during the Olympics.

> But when the future of the entire sport seems to
> be on a 'lifeline'...then something needs to
> change. Obviously there are companies out there
> that are willing to dump money into the
> drivers/cars....but for that to continue, there
> needs to be events, so logically, shouldn't
> someone at RA approach those companies and say
> 'hey....we need some help.'

Y'know, you are right. I bet RA never thought of doing that.

Oh, wait. They are and they have been.

Do some research on the history of rally in the US. It is like the Battlestar Galactica line "this has all happened before and it will all happen again".

> So I'm not being 'pissy', I'm just stating
> fact....its RETARDED that the ENTIRE FUCKING SPORT
> seems to be at risk, when there's piles of money
> walking around the events.

The entire sport is more at risk from lack of access to roads that are within a week's drive of any population center.

If you think the number of entries are low now, check out the mid-90s.

> What good is going to an organizers meeting going
> to do? This is for the eniture SPORT/SERIES. RA
> needs to either 1) Hire a Director or VP or
> executive of business development and
> sponsorships, or fire the guy that currently does
> it and get a new one.

I think RA is on its fourth sponsorship/business development/PR crew.

What good is going to an organizer's meeting be? It would give you a clue about how this sport puts on events.

Don't take this the wrong way, but how can you expect anyone to take your suggestions seriously when you can't be bothered to take the time to figure out how things work now and what has been tried in the past?

alan





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2009 11:54PM by tipo158.

I said it before (way back on Rally-L over 10 years ago), and I've repeated it
several other times:

ALL competitors who are competing for points should be
REQUIRED to work at least part of or an entire rally once per year.

If the prima donnas have a problem with that, then fuck 'em.
They can go run F1 or something more suited to their high
opinion of themselves.

What the fuck do I know or anything, I am only part of the founders, organizers, and directors of a GROWING regional program but here goes.

The problem with rally is that we are far to scattered.

This is a big fucking country, it is hard to have close, local, events, not an event, but events, plural. Some of the places that do, like the PNW, still cover 300-800 miles between all of the events.


Then we have this idea of we have workers, national competitors, regional competitors, fans, and organizers. Five freaking separate groups. Screw this idea. We need to think about ourselves as all being rallyists and managing and growing our sport as one overall entity.

We don't need more competitors, we don't need more events, we don't need more organizers. We need it all.

This sport needs to get back to basics or we might as well accept being under subscribed, over worked, under staffed, and over looked.

Where the the real, local, approachable community building efforts going on? What are we doing in this community to build a real community? I don't see many parts of the country trying to throw parties and what nots for the local rallyists. There are not really any BBQs, BSing over beers, or whatever's.

How many parts of the country are trying to horizontally integrate RallyCross programs into their overall community at rallyists? I am not talking about a couple of people going to some rallycrosses. I am talking about real efforts to get stage rallyists to rallycrosses and vice versa.

We as rallyists have to find a way to create an environment that isn't just welcoming, but that makes EVERY SINGLE person that is involved in it feel vital and part of something bigger than themselves and worth being a part of.

Paying workers, getting more exposure, or whatever the "solution of the day is" won't really solve anything if there isn't a thriving, horizontally integrated community, there to support it.

Paying volunteers won't get you more volunteers, it will only lead to you getting fewer volunteers when you can't afford to pay them. Getting more exposure won't help you unless you are creating more recognition and value.

I met a woman this weekend, who at 70 years old, was absolutely thrilled to death at the idea of going to a vintage road race and possibly being able to work a corner station after 20 years away from races just so she could be part of a race again. Rallying doesn't need paid volunteers, big sponsors, or more exposure any where near as much as it needs hundreds and hundreds of people with that kind of passion for being involved with the sport. Create a way to grow and expand that kind of passion, excitement, and experience, and whatever else happens will be all that sweeter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2009 11:15PM by JVLslittlebuddy.

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jon Burke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > tipo158 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----

>
> How many rallies have a venue with enough traffic
> to merit a $5K/weekend 'park your rolling advert'
> fee? How many rallies have a closed venue where
> they couldn't just park their rolling advert
> across the street for free?

Alan, don't take things so literally...all I'm saying is, find new streams of revenue from where you can get it. Think outside the box...and I don't mean YOU, I'm just saying, someone needs to shake shit up over there.



>
> > [ quote from me concerning volunteers at
> big-name motorsports deleted ]
> >
> > But the last time I checked, they're doing
> pretty
> > good compared to rally....they're also
> > sit-on-your-ass-and-drink-your-beer stadium
> > sports. (and there's nothing wrong with that,
> I've
> > been to the LBGP, its a great time)
> >
> > At least it seemed like they're doing good,
> when I
> > went to the San Jose Grand Prix and weekend
> > tickets were +$150.
>
> Yeah and if we had some way to charge $150 for
> people to sit in the woods, how do you think
> people would respond to that?
>

Well, if you can figure that one out, you just single handedly saved rally! LOL


> > and you avoided the main sports like
> baseball,
> > basketball, etc...
>
> No, I did not avoid it. I have no idea whether
> they are paid or not.
>
> However, I do know about volunteering for the 2010
> Olympics. No pay and you need to find your own
> place to stay, which shouldn't be too hard, right?
> There are probably lots of cheap places to stay
> in Whistler during the Olympics.
>

oh come on, comparing volunteering for a rally to the olympics? fuck me, you're like arguing with JVL.

Lets see.....BUY tickets AND find a place to stay in Whistler? Or volunteer and get in for free and then just have to find a place to stay? hmmmm.



> > But when the future of the entire sport seems
> to
> > be on a 'lifeline'...then something needs to
> > change. Obviously there are companies out
> there
> > that are willing to dump money into the
> > drivers/cars....but for that to continue,
> there
> > needs to be events, so logically, shouldn't
> > someone at RA approach those companies and
> say
> > 'hey....we need some help.'
>
> Y'know, you are right. I bet RA never thought of
> doing that.
>
> Oh, wait. They are and they have been.
>

Recent example?


> Do some research on the history of rally in the
> US. It is like the Battlestar Galactica line
> "this has all happened before and it will all
> happen again".
>
>
>
> The entire sport is more at risk from lack of
> access to roads that are within a week's drive of
> any population center.
>

I would agree with that as well, but its one of those 'if you build it, they will come' things.....(if you get to quote battlestar gallactica, I'm going to quote field of dreams)

Also, who better to help keep roads open than big corporations with big pockets? Instead all I see is stuff on ss.com about competitors marking bills or using 2-bills to 'track rally money' through a small down. helpful, but in general, 'meh'

What happens to RA's championship if STPR gets shut down next year? I don't see a single thing about it on RA's website....oh wait, 3 posts in the RA forum....sheesh. I realize that maybe something that's WAYYY out of anyone's control at this point, but looking through RA's website, i don't see any kind of 'call to help' about issues with keeping events/venues open.

I DO see a photo contest though! sweet!


> If you think the number of entries are low now,
> check out the mid-90s.
>

> > What good is going to an organizers meeting
> going
> > to do? This is for the eniture SPORT/SERIES.
> RA
> > needs to either 1) Hire a Director or VP or
> > executive of business development and
> > sponsorships, or fire the guy that currently
> does
> > it and get a new one.
>
> I think RA is on its fourth sponsorship/business
> development/PR crew.
>

I rest my case.


> What good is going to an organizer's meeting be?
> It would give you a clue about how this sport puts
> on events.
>
> Don't take this the wrong way, but how can you
> expect anyone to take your suggestions seriously
> when you can't be bothered to take the time to
> figure out how things work now and what has been
> tried in the past?
>
> alan
>
>
I'm not taking anything the wrong way, we're just having a discussion. And you're right, I could probably know a little more history, but I always hated history.....too much memorizing and asking, "why the fuck did they do it like THAT?"

Anyway...I'm jumping in as fast as I can. I started out as a complete rally noob in 2007. SCCA NorCal dropped their RallyX program at the time, I wanted more events to 'get started with' and now its 2009 and I pretty much own the NorCal RallyX scene. I'm in the process of training a small crew now so next year i can step down and not leave a void.

I'll get into organizing rallies in due time, but right now I just want to finish my car and actually run a few events first and see where things go.

PERSONALLY, I could care less about RA. As long as CRS/NASA keeps going, that's fine by me, but i'm a 'big picture' kind of guy, so, this stuff interests me.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

> tipo158 Wrote:

> Yeah and if we had some way to charge $150 for people to sit in the woods, how > do you think people would respond to that?

Looking at how many people showed up to PIR for OTR and paid $10 per person to get in, it does make me wonder if people don't go the other days/times because they consider "free" product to be "inferior" product.

Would more people show up if they had to pay to watch because it would then be considered more of a real sport to them, and real sports aren't free to watch?

If I move to Long Beach in the coming months I'll probably start rallying almost exclusively in Mexico.

I'm going to post my comments from the Ken Block Gym thread because I think they're relevant here as well. By the way, I decided back at Rally Colorado that DC might stand for dumb cunt, because it so accurately describes around 70% of people that wear DC clothing items. And it's fun to say things like, hey look, another dumb cunt fan boy.

Sure we could use more volunteers, but a large amount of the DC fan boys that I see starting to flock to rallies to spectate and be all around annoying, rude, and all around display their level of unintelligence I would rather not see. The marshalls at the spectator area on Fir Mountain were way more patient than I would have been with the action of a few of these rude boys. Was it STPR that had a stage cancelled because of all the rude spectators? I say no thanks personally.
All having more people will do is give a little more money to a few teams that don't need it, and hopefully to one or two that does. Look at MJ. Did you see the part where his engine at Oregon Trails was the same engine he's ran for 2 or 3 years. If there's going to be any 'trickle down' from these types of things, MJ should be the first one you look to to see if it's working to get additional sponsors in rally. The second place is in the entry fees for the regional competitors. From what I see, it's not. (PS> Yes NEFR is cheaper this year, but there's a different underlying reason for that as I understand.)

---

Grant Hughes

ok, back to the "paying for it" part again, if those dumb cunt fans had to pay to be there, would they have more respect?

as for DC fans, one of them was working with me on Saturday, a 13 year old girl and she had a wonderful time and is one of the most well behaved wonderful children/people I've ever known (which is amazing considering the hell she's going through in her home life right now) so I suppose she falls into the acceptible 30%

NoCoast Wrote:


Yhanks Grant, I somebody in their late 30s likeme had said the same things then it could be easily discounted as being grumbles from an old has been, and indeed we have seen that very complaint from some "never was".

However the one part that I have to strenuously dispute with you is:
LONG BEACH.

What da fawk are you talking about fawkin LONG BEACH for?

You do realise dontcha that fawkin LONG BEACH is in CALIFORNIA dontcha?

Worse, it is in the Genearl Metro LA area...

If you don't like what you describe as the "target demographic" DC fan boy attitude, behavior or intelligence, then What the fawk are you talking about moving into the heart of the beast and move to fawkin LONG BEACH for???????


What is it NOW?

Just move to fawkin Sleezattle and be done with it.






-------------------------------------------------------
> If I move to Long Beach in the coming months I'll
> probably start rallying almost exclusively in
> Mexico.
>
> I'm going to post my comments from the Ken Block
> Gym thread because I think they're relevant here
> as well. By the way, I decided back at Rally
> Colorado that DC might stand for dumb cunt,
> because it so accurately describes around 70% of
> people that wear DC clothing items. And it's fun
> to say things like, hey look, another dumb cunt
> fan boy.
>
> Sure we could use more volunteers, but a large
> amount of the DC fan boys that I see starting to
> flock to rallies to spectate and be all around
> annoying, rude, and all around display their level
> of unintelligence I would rather not see. The
> marshalls at the spectator area on Fir Mountain
> were way more patient than I would have been with
> the action of a few of these rude boys. Was it
> STPR that had a stage cancelled because of all the
> rude spectators? I say no thanks personally.
> All having more people will do is give a little
> more money to a few teams that don't need it, and
> hopefully to one or two that does. Look at MJ. Did
> you see the part where his engine at Oregon Trails
> was the same engine he's ran for 2 or 3 years. If
> there's going to be any 'trickle down' from these
> types of things, MJ should be the first one you
> look to to see if it's working to get additional
> sponsors in rally. The second place is in the
> entry fees for the regional competitors. From what
> I see, it's not. (PS> Yes NEFR is cheaper this
> year, but there's a different underlying reason
> for that as I understand.)
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
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