Middle-age complaining..

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > tipo158 Wrote:
>
> > Yeah and if we had some way to charge $150
> > for people to sit in the woods, how do you
> > think people would respond to that?
>
> Looking at how many people showed up to PIR for
> OTR and paid $10 per person to get in, it does
> make me wonder if people don't go the other
> days/times because they consider "free" product to
> be "inferior" product.
>
> Would more people show up if they had to pay to
> watch because it would then be considered more of
> a real sport to them, and real sports aren't free
> to watch?

I partially agree with your point, but ...

There is a big difference between getting people to come to a track in town and getting them to drive out to the woods and then hike to a spectator location.

Having said that, I heard that there were plenty of people at the spectator locations for Oregon and Olympus, near capacity for the available parking.

The problem is figuring out how to generate event income from them. It is fairly easy at places like PIR, but it is a little harder out in the woods. The terms of the road use permit could make it hard or increase the price to use the road beyond what you can get from the spectators.

Even at PIR, there are risks. This year, as I understand it, the facility was basically free, but the track got the gate receipts. Let's say ORG rented the track and, say, the weather was bad and no one showed up.

alan

oh, I know that it would be damn near impossible to charge out in the woods and I can't think of any way to make it work unless the only way to access spectator areas was by organized transport to/from those areas

but a ticket on a reserved bus and it takes you there and back, something like that


but seriously, look at lower level sports, they are cheaper and hardly anyone goes, but the more you charge the more people who show up

I have a pair of DC shoes and have at least one friend that wears a DC hoodie. You know who the dumb cunts are. The drunk kid in the monster hat at the spectator area yelling obsenities across the road from the spectator area at the volunteer marshall. The kid with the SRTUSA coat and the STI that almost runs people off the road showing off his mad skillz on his way home and comes into the local rally shop to see about getting his cage done so he can go wallop on Travis Pastrana. (all real examples btw)

Long Beach has girl + schools + jobs, but mostly the first one. I'm starting to care very little about the second two as a whole...

---

Grant Hughes

Mike Mc Wrote:
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> Alan, the perception I have (and I suspect many
> others) is much of the RA emphasis is put on the
> high end of the sport. Remember, I come in at the
> bottom rung of this thing, and perceive what is
> lacking there. DCH came in at the high end, and
> may well be seeing what is lacking there, but I'm
> not able to share his perception. You have your
> viewpoint as well, and the fact that ours differ
> does not mean either is entirely wrong.

I agree that there is that perception. However, from my point of view as a recently retired competitor, a want-to-be-retired organizer and the current RA rules geek, I don't see that as reality.

In my opinion, a national sanctioning body cannot build regional grassroots organizations. Only the locals in the region can do that. In my opinion, a national sanctioning body should provide enough just enough infrastructure and support for the locals to get the ball rolling and then stay out of the way. I think both RA and NRS do that reasonable well.

RA probably has the perception of being focused on the high end because that is the most visible part of RA. However, I think that that is more a result of the relative success of the national program and not from neglect of the regional program.

alan

Mike,
I don't disagree with what you say, but don't forget about your neighbors to the North. The Canadians have got some great rallying (and stronger beer) just North of Maine.

Have you been to Baie?

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

Gene,

Why can't R.A. pay for worker rooms? I don't see how it is important who pays for my room at Mt. Trials. The point is that it's not the volunteers. If the Canadians can do it why can't we?

Alan,

"Its not even like those guys have to come up with a ton of money. $5K/event for workers is plenty. Tell them its a 'park your big ass 18-wheeler rig in our parking lot' fee." Word!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
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> Why can't R.A. pay for worker rooms? ....

>The point is that it's not the
> volunteers. If the Canadians can do it why can't we?



The U.S. rally paradigm was set in the Kurt Spitzner Proposal of 1998.

1. Pretty painted trailers.

2. Woo manufacturers.

3. All the unwashed bend over and take it while saying "thank you".

4. Manufacturers get free workers, the best service areas, and their asses kissed. In turn they pay the same entry fees as everyone else.

The Kurt Spitzner proposal was a decade ahead of its time with corporate bailouts.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2009 10:40PM by Jens.

Robert,

The organizers of the event in Canada are paying for your room not CARS. That is the same as the organizers of Olympus paying for your room not RA. How can you not see the difference? No way is it fair or valid to compare organizer expenditures to a sanctioning body expenditures. Your room is being paid out of the intake of Mt.Trials , wether it is from competitor entry fees or organizer secured sponsorship.

How would any group , organizer or sanctioning body ever be able to budget for volunteers? Do you give rooms for all? Even if they just work tech and leave? Work one stage? That becomes compensation so SS numbers would be needed, forms filed, income declared and so on. The sweep crew managed to hold the organizers of Olympus for about $3600 last year for gas and rooms. That would have paid for one helluva year end banquet.

Pretty much everyone has a hobby of some sort, sailing, square dancing, quads, working rallies and so on. Every one of those pastimes costs money. Shit I have about $12k tied up in quads, $20K in the old Chris Craft with $250 a month moorage. Honestly, if you can't afford to volunteer then don't, if you can't afford to rally then don't. Expecting Subaru or NOS or Monster to shell out corporate bucks to support your (whomever) hobbies is flat silly.

Jens,
Your views are so irrelevant it is pathetic. You have absolutely no experience with organizing, working or competing in todays rally. You constantly try to sideline otherwise meaningfull discussions with your poison. You constantly revisit Spitzner and the SCCA. Time to move on, if you can't then go take up your grievance with Kurt, he unlike you is actually involved with rally.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert,
>
> The organizers of the event in Canada are paying
> for your room not CARS. That is the same as the
> organizers of Olympus paying for your room not RA.
> How can you not see the difference? No way is it
> fair or valid to compare organizer expenditures to
> a sanctioning body expenditures. Your room is
> being paid out of the intake of Mt.Trials , wether
> it is from competitor entry fees or organizer
> secured sponsorship.
>
> How would any group , organizer or sanctioning
> body ever be able to budget for volunteers? Do you
> give rooms for all? Even if they just work tech
> and leave? Work one stage? That becomes
> compensation so SS numbers would be needed, forms
> filed, income declared and so on. The sweep crew
> managed to hold the organizers of Olympus for
> about $3600 last year for gas and rooms. That
> would have paid for one helluva year end banquet.
>
> Pretty much everyone has a hobby of some sort,
> sailing, square dancing, quads, working rallies
> and so on. Every one of those pastimes costs
> money. Shit I have about $12k tied up in quads,
> $20K in the old Chris Craft with $250 a month
> moorage. Honestly, if you can't afford to
> volunteer then don't, if you can't afford to rally
> then don't. Expecting Subaru or NOS or Monster to
> shell out corporate bucks to support your
> (whomever) hobbies is flat silly.
>
> Jens,
> Your views are so irrelevant it is pathetic. You
> have absolutely no experience with organizing,
> working or competing in todays rally. You
> constantly try to sideline otherwise meaningfull
> discussions with your poison. You constantly
> revisit Spitzner and the SCCA. Time to move on, if
> you can't then go take up your grievance with
> Kurt, he unlike you is actually involved with
> rally.
>
>
I just want to clarify something, because I agree w/most of what Gene's saying, and I DO understand the difference between organizers flitting the bill, or 'RallyAmerica' paying for it.

Quote

Honestly, if you can't afford to
> volunteer then don't, if you can't afford to rally
> then don't. Expecting Subaru or NOS or Monster to
> shell out corporate bucks to support your
> (whomever) hobbies is flat silly.

I also agree with this, to a point...the point I'm making is you've got this National Series, with big names and big corporate sponsors....but it also hangs on the thread of barely-able-to-make-ends-meet events. So for the health of the series, I think RA should find better ways to make sure these events happen. And yes, I realize that I'm making a statement w/o full knowledge of every step of how to run every event, or every meeting that goes on in RA....so deal with it. Its just one man's opinion.


My opinion, however is based on the fact that you've got Ken Block, Pastrana, etc, getting major promotion, sponsorship $$, etc....


Take CRS for example....grassroots to the core. No big money (unless you consider Bill Holmes 'big money' ) and for the most part, any given year, the 'CRS Championship' is up for grabs. No big sponsors, no big celebrities showing up in big-rigs (Kevin's RV?) and dominating the field with +$100K cars.


That's the way it should be, imo.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2009 11:45PM by Jon Burke.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> Jens,
....

> You constantly revisit Spitzner and the SCCA.


Because the Spitzner Proposal of 1998 was the beginning of
the ***CURRENT*** paradigm. Kurt wasn't the bad guy. The people
who bought the bullshit got what they deserved.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Workers weren't paid then, aren't paid now, and won't be paid
in the future. The big teams know this and take advantage of the situation.

Gee golly... maybe I can give someone a T-shirt in exchange for painting my house.

The trickle-down theory fell on its ass and died a spectacularly obvious
death, but ten years later people still prance around hoping for a savior.

It is amusing.

Gene,

First off, I agree with you that you have to pay to play. No doubt. Now if I volunteer, lets say that I am only playing some of the time. It is really nice if someone could help me enable the to competitors play. I am not advocating paying workers. I am saying some "under the radar" help like a free meal, gas card or a room would be super nice.

In this situation the only distinction that I am making between organizer and sanctioning body is financial. Without comparing the accounts of both organizations none of us really know anything.

"How would any group , organizer or sanctioning body ever be able to budget for volunteers?" Somehow, the Canadians have done it in the past and are doing it now. We should ask them.

As for myself, I volunteered at Doo Wops and Olympus this year already. I was happy to pay for JVL and myself out of my own pocket. Because I could. I am competing at No Alibi this coming weekend. Mt. Trials is the following weekend and the cash well has run dry. The only way that I can work the Canadian event is if they help me out with accommodations.

I don't want to sling mud or advocate any type of conspiracy theory. I would like to have more transparency of the rally finances. If the Canadians can do it why can't we?

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

The big teams don't take advantage of anything.

Block and Pastrana were both wealthy and celebrities when they entered our sport. Seems reasonable they just might be able to afford rally at a different level of car and team. No regional competitor has paid more to run an event because of SRT. Subaru has continued to support us on a regional level with sponsorship going to local organizations, with worker bags and even pop-ups for competitors.

CRS is just that a local regional series. Not really any different than the PNW Championship. There are some pretty expensive well sorted cars in both series. Money is tight in both series. Not the same as a national series. You can go to the local track and watch people drive in a $1000 claimer car. They foot the bill. You cannot go to the Daytona 500 and watch that guy run with the Nextel boys.

As to Kurt and the whole trickle down theory...if you (anyone) is going to market a series to a big sponsor then maybe it is better to invest $10 in Krylon and paint the trailer. Rusty old Datsuns and ragtag low performing teams might be a bit tough to market.

ACP and Tanner work diligently to get sponsors, RA didn't get those sponsors for them. At a regional level it isn't that hard to get sponsors. You need to have something to sell though. A clean car, decent results and good presentation. I pretty much rallied for free for the better part of 10 years because of sponsors.

RA has a fixed fee they charge for events same as NRS. They don't take a cut of organizer profits. They haven't raised prices nor do they charge any more than NRS.
Rally is somewhat unique in that we don't have a closed venue to corral paying spectators into. That also makes in very hard to market to television. Makes it hard to both spectate and work an event. If rally was more of the Euro RallyX stuff and raced closed course fender to fender then I'll bet it would all be different.

Seriously, what do we have to market? Go to a drift event or drag race or circle track event. They have verifiable attendance. A sponsor can see where his money is going, can see the potential for a return, can target a certain demographic. Rally has little to offer. So we get a national sponsor to spend big dollars fpr the series. Whomever it was would be faced with...I don't like Bridgestine tires, I hate Tide soap, M&Ms cause tooth decay, blue Subarus suck, I won't use PoliGrip, Extends doesn't work...I AM NOT PUTTING THAT ON THE SIDE OF MY CAR !!!

So we just had back to back the DooWop regional and a month later the Olympus. Same roads for the last 10-15 years or so. Where we had a few hundred spectators at DooWops we had thousands at Olympus. This people came to see Travis, Ken, Tanner and ACP. Those spectators spent money at stores, gas stations, restaurants and motels. The area had a sizeable financial impact. That impact was strictly because of RA and the front runners (tose front runners paid more in entries than any regional guy). Now we have something to talk about with local land owners and communities. We will be welcomed back because they have seen the results of the national RA efforts.

Quinn Morely....a new regional guy, put a car together in less than 5 years(nudge), works part time, student part time, managed to make the first 3 events in the PNW this year. NO budget, NO DMS, NO AWD, NO shiney paint, NO rotisserie seam welding, no excuses BUT he is a ralliest. He has more grit than any new guy I've met in years. He IS rally. He doesn't whine, he learns, he has fun, he overcomes,he improves, he is on stage and he has miles of stages under his belt now.

To paraphrase a certain president..."Ask not what rally can do for you, ask what you can do for rally"

Robert, (please read this nicely as you are someone I like a lot) I'll bet I have hundreds of hours more volunteering than you, gas to Oregon and motel rooms just to help scrutineering, countless hours of helping Damitio, McQuade, PRG, ORG, RA, NRS. I do it for fun, a distraction, the comraderie and to help. I certainly don't think or demand RA or even the organizers pay me or furnish lodging. I usually don't even stay for the dinner. Alan Perry can tell the same story. So can Ron Barker, John Nispel, Bill Stanley, Kim Craddock and many others. So my question...why suddenly are you so important to demand lodging ?

Jens,
Seriously, you have nothing to offer here. Your views are so slanted as to not reflect reality. Your participation in the sport so slight that you can't offer useful tech or competitor advise. 4 point roll cage being acceptable...really???
Heart attack..so what..Damitio has had heart attacks, had a stroke the weekend after DooWops ( may have had one during DW) had another after Olympus. He was in yesterday talking about us putting on a hill climb and he is looking for new rally roads. He's like 82 or so now. Forespring has had heart attacks. He has had to leave events and head for the ER a couple times. They both have serious health issues yet somehow find the time and effort to stay involved in a positive way.

OUR sport is in trouble, we are losing roads to enviromentalists, unruly spectators and the economy. We are losing competitors and volunteers to both easier venues and cheaper venues. My son just spent Friday evening at the local drag strip. $25, eight runs and a 14.3/98 mph 1/4 mile. Huge smiles when he got home. Neither RA nor NRS will have a way to stop this . It is inevitable. If we want to prolong the inevitable then we need to get on stage. Finish the car, volunteer, get involved. Being involved is not the same as whining, bitching or otherwise spreading bad info, attitude or vibes on a forum. Can we make it better? Yes, but it takes pro-active actions like Robert and Merrilee are doing. Find a way to help, everyone can do something. Don't stir the pot, add something to the stew. Even crotchety old JVL helped when I asked him. He added to the stew...showed up did his job, stuck around for more, shagged cones and was a part of the event. He drug Robert along and now we have him to kick around also. And once again a huge THANK YOU for doing that.

I need to get back into the "pro-active" research I was doing. However, although I may now be trying to add to the pot, I stirred it first, I think you need to do a little of both. Can't know what's settled down at the bottom that needs to come to the top without a little stirring.

As for Morley, I love seeing that ugly old Saab out there. Although I do always want to steal it and paint it and then give it back.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

......



> OUR sport is in trouble, we are losing roads to
> enviromentalists, unruly spectators.....


Rally is NOT a spectator sport.

Raising rally's visibility is what is slowly killing it.
I said it 10 years ago, and stand by it now.

If you don't like my opinions, don't read them. No one is forcing
you to read my comments.

You asked me how long since I've been to a rally. I gave you
an answer. The answer wasn't to your liking. I don't care.

The title of the thread is: "Middle-age complaining" not
"Group hug".









Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2009 12:01PM by Jens.

but I like group hugs :/