Survey: Planning a differnt type of event, need feedback

Rallymech Wrote:
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> Dave,
>
> Many people have the same reaction as you about
> TSD events. I have been on some TSD rallies that
> were seriously boring. On the other hand I just
> competed in an event that was fast and fun. It
> all depends on the roads and the rally master.
>
> Robert.


so very true

a few years ago running the Rally against Parkinsons I believe many times the words "dad tabor, prepare to die" were mentioned in the car

however, the next year (or year after, don't remember) it was set up to be run in the dry, and then wouldn't'cha know it rained, making for a very fun and interesting rally

Keith,

You are a wealth of good information!

"Targa Newfoundland has absolutley no timing on the tranists... in fact you can change start order from stage to stage without penalty if you want to take some extra time to work on the car. They also allow effectively open service with many teams having service crews waiting at the end of the stages."

They can get away with that because all their roads are closed? It would be really hard to sell that type of chaos to some small town or county.

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
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> Keith,
> You are a wealth of good information!

Nah, I'm just some photographer wanna-be.

> They can get away with that because all their
> roads are closed? It would be really hard to sell
> that type of chaos to some small town or county.

Not 'full service' open service, but if you want to meet up with your service crew for fuel or other minor issues (or so the trailer doesn't end up 100km away when you dnf the stage) no problemo.
Transits are open road and the constabulary don't cut competitors or course cars any breaks (some event get hyper-critical.)

Targa sells much bigger chaos to most communities as they literally close down entire towns to run through them. There is a LOT of community relations that happen through the year and the event draws on the communities for volunteer support.

John's idea of setting a target average speed higher than the typical stage speed ONLY leads to running full rally prep and safety gear. At some point I thought I saw a desire for reduced risk and, as a result, reduced safety equipment standards. This is going to be a tough mark to hit.

I'll point out that when you look at reducing safety equipment you really need to understand the risks. We saw the worst injury in a rally in a very long time last fall and it was in a production class CRX on one of he slower corners of a stage we use both for stage rally and for testing. H&N protection WOULD have made a huge difference without any question what-so-evar.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Robert,
PM me your email and I'll send you the proposal I wrote up that outlines my ideas.

Kieth,

That high target speed would only be for fully prepped cars. As the safety level of of a car decreases the average speed would also come down. For example a fully prepared open class rally car would have a 55 mph average speed on a stage. A TSD level competitor with his road car and a helmet may have a 45 mph average speed to hold. A novice on street tires may be down at 35 of 40 mph. It is a tough mark to hit and it will all depend on the details.

You are right, we do need to understand the risks. I feel that even the fast TSD rallies that I have been running carry a substantial amount of risk. Holding CAST through an unknown blind corner at night in the rain is pretty sketchy. For that matter it is pretty easy to slide off in a corner and get impaled by a tree branch. I see risk as a natural part off life and I know that I have to manage it. The young guns amongst us may not have figured that out yet and I will try to help them not get hurt. In the end though, I need to balance the fun-risk-insurance equation.

I think that the best way to understand risks is to look at probability. I admit that it would be best to require everyone to have all the safety equipment all the time. The problem is that the cage, helmet, HANS and so on are the big barriers to entering stage rally. One of the major reasons for this type of event is to move stage and TSD closer together. I want to use speed, experience and equipment to manage the probability of an accident. Lower speed and more experience can mitigate the need for all the safety equipment to balance out the risk equation.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Besides, if someone can show up, run at the lower speed, enjoy it, they may decide that they like it enough to risk building a full on rally car.

Rally isn't something most people can just go try and decide if they like it. Even renting a car is a very expensive venture.

A little taste and not full speed probably would be enough for people to know "yes, I gotta build a car and then go faster" or "naw, this is fun" or "no, don't like it at all".

We've got people running stage rallies who aren't going much faster than the sweep vehicles, for those that still want the road to themselves, the kind of event that is being talked about here would be perfect for the type who want to rally, but not super fast. The ones just coming into it who would be (and maybe stay) at that level would end up having much lower costs while still getting to "race".

Rallymech Wrote:
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> I see risk as a
> natural part off life and I know that I have to
> manage it. The young guns amongst us may not have
> figured that out yet and I will try to help them
> not get hurt. In the end though, I need to
> balance the fun-risk-insurance equation.

> Lower speed and more experience can
> mitigate the need for all the safety equipment to
> balance out the risk equation.

As I am sure you understand, your perception of risk and what you consider mitigation of risk isn't the issue. It is the insurer's perception and what they consider mitigation that matters.

A problem that I see with a mixed format event is that the stage rally insurers (through the sanction body) doesn't know about risk for TSD and vice versa for insurers that are familiar with TSD risk.

I just can't see how you will get roads for something like this. Once you start talking about full competition vehicles traveling at speeds in excess of the speed limit and requiring controlled access to the road, it gets a lot harder to find roads.

alan

Stage and TSD aren't the problem ... the middle ground is.

Talking about a helmet in an otherwise un-prepared car is a recipe for disaster.

a) A helmet restricts blood flow to the brain and cuts off the 'common sense' parts first. Give them helmets and they'll think it will be OK to have an off.

b) the weight of the helmet is what causes basal skull fractures in an accident, so having a helmet leads to needing a H&N device, which leads to harnesses, which leads to a cage and seats.
It is too late, we can't go back to the days of 4pt roll bars and helmets only.

(That said, Targa NL runs closed roads and helmets for their touring class... http://www.targanewfoundland.com/drivers/rules-regulations/)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Alan,

I am all too aware that the only perception that matters is that of the underwriter.

Getting roads for this type will be no different that for a stage event......damm near impossible!

Keith,

I have to disagree with you on these two points. It's ok to have an off. You just don't want to do it faster than you are prepared for.

There were no droves of people dying from basal skull fractures before H&N devices were invented. The people that did die were killed in high energy situations. The best way to mitigate that is to keep speeds down. I don't think that we need to look at this question as black or white.

"It is too late, we can't go back to the days of 4pt roll bars and helmets only." For what? Stage rally? Let's be honest half the cars are not going that fast! We don't need it for TSD do we? What about something in between? Not to be a jerk, but can you tell me what is wrong with a four point cage and helmet if I was going slightly slower than the last car on a stage rally? What about the auto crosses, track days etcetera that don't require H&N? Most road courses are not that safe. How about getting T-boned on track?

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
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Don;t worry, you're not be ing a jerk about this... we just have different perceptions - which is what discussions are all about.

> I have to disagree with you on these two points.
> It's ok to have an off. You just don't want to do
> it faster than you are prepared for.

The problem is that given a closed road, I'd assume that people will drive to the performance spec of the car, not the safety spec of the car. Particularly the 'in-between' crowd who don'd have the experience to properly judge risk on the road.

> There were no droves of people dying from basal
> skull fractures before H&N devices were
> invented. The people that did die were killed in
> high energy situations.

All I can say to that is that last fall we had an accident on the slowest corner of the slowest stage road in the province where the driver, who was wearing a H&N device walked away and the co-driver was in ICU for two weeks and astonished doctors with his recovery by being released after a month but has suffered life altering injuries. (and a BSF)

> The best way to mitigate that is to keep speeds down.

How? TSDs still get the occaisonal crew out there who decide the goal is to get as many 'early' point as possible. CARS has highly suggested 'winter scoring' time allowances in all TSDs (so you only get penalized once for being late) but that only deals with the people who have the right goal in mind.

> I don't think that we need to look at this question as black or
> white.

Your underwriter will

> Let's be honest half the cars are not
> going that fast!

The civic in the accident was mid-pack speeds. not that fast at all.

> What about the auto crosses, track days etcetera that
> don't require H&N? Most road courses are not
> that safe. How about getting T-boned on track?

Not that safe compared to a forest road? Tracks don't have stands of trees you can hit immediately on the outside of corners. Autocross courses are kept slow by their design (if the rules are followed) and need to be a certain distance away from fixed obstacles.

Looking to tack days for safety examples is not exactly the best thing to do.
> Robert.
>
>

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

What about hillclimbs? They are only running about 2 mile stretches of road at a time, but are closed off to the public during racing (although with Bible Creek I know we have to regularly open the road to allow the public to pass, then re-close).

Cages are not required for those and there are trees involved and no limit set for speeds vs amount of safety equipment.

So, they somehow effectly manage to get insurance coverage with half the people running having no cage and no suit.

12xalt Wrote:
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> Cages are not required for those and there are
> trees involved and no limit set for speeds vs
> amount of safety equipment.
>
> So, they somehow effectly manage to get insurance
> coverage with half the people running having no
> cage and no suit.


Back in the 70's we were dying in droves because
we didn't have Hans devices, idiotic cage rules,
silly suits, spectators, and TV crews, and photographers.

Yes, boys and girls, the New World Order of drug dealer
sponsored forest sprint racing / stadium stunts that they
call "rally" has saved us all from the carnage that
was the good ol' days.

my spidey sense is telling me there is anger nearby

Morison Wrote:
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> Not that safe compared to a forest road? Tracks
> don't have stands of trees you can hit immediately
> on the outside of corners.


Wow, dude. Trees!

Yeah, man, we didn't... like... have trees when we
rallied in the 70's. Trees are scary things, man.

Trees were introduced to rally in the 80's or 90's.

12xalt Wrote:
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> my spidey sense is telling me there is anger nearby


"spidey sense"?

I had to look that up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spidey_Sense#Spider-sense


So Spider-Woman, who's angry about what?


.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2009 12:35PM by Jens.