Some us us dinosaur-like members have begun the very light pencil stage of planning a new ld style" event.
The principle outlines are:
>Low cost
>low frills
> high milage as one of us put it "A meal, not a morsel"

Key planned features includes:
160-180 SS miles
2 day max total
Rally Moto, of course

Tagged on afterwards a Monte-Carlo format rally open to more or less ordinary cars using a simplified timing procedure like the great Thunderbird Rally or last weekends No Alibi.

Questions are many, but high on the list are what "youse guys" will come to, what sort of challenge are you really willing to enter

Will you like stages that are narrow, curvy, maybe not pool table smooth?
Will you like longer 15-20 miles or more stages?
Can you survive without a central service point and hours of service time after every 10-15 miles?
Can you possibly survive with just a good well written Route Book?
If we can convince timing crews to stay up, how late can you boys stay up past your normal beddie-bye time?

Could you imagine driving all night long?

Will you help try and recruit timing crews?

Will you be willing to put up posters at your local Auto repair and Parts places nearby--and not just sit on posters?

Lets talk and be serious, or as serious as we can considering.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

(the following is all opinion)

First, you need to identify who 'youse guys' are and how many of them there are.

Second, you are setting up contradictory goals/expectations

- low cost vs. meal size distance
Fuel, tires, wear per stage mile are all significant parts of the cost equation.
If done with little or no repetition of stage roads, he costs of setting up the rally will be huge.

- no central service
If you move services during the day you suddenly force teams to have service crews or at least beg borrow or steal someone to move their rig and fuel.

- tagging a TSD onto the end of a stage event is a lot to ask of the volunteer base in the region. Just about every time we've tried to add anything on to a rally weekend it has been a failure.

- Late/overnight rallying is not just restricted by the volunteers being willing to spend the night out in the woods but also by the road authorities being willing to give permissions for overnight use. We have been refused night time permissions in Alberta for some roads based on safety concerns over the provision of night emergency services.

- DooWops is an event with a history or running low-cost and well subscribed events ... no doubt this is the model to build on.

in short - I think there are valid reasons that 'Old Style' events are 'Old Style'

to answer the questions:
"Will you like stages that are narrow, curvy, maybe not pool table smooth?"

Love them twisty and technical ... needn't be super smooth (Princeton Dropoff is a fave)

"Will you like longer 15-20 miles or more stages?"

I'd prefer my stages in KM rater than miles, but yes, the longer the better. 34 Km of Powderace is another fave ... got to do that one a couple of weeks ago. Have a problem that shuts down the stage, however, and you start loosing big chunks of your event.

"Can you survive without a central service point and hours of service time after every 10-15 miles?"

Without question. I find he absurdly long services boring and annoying, They break the rythm of competition and we end-up just sitting around more than half the time.
Long services are, more often than not, a by-product of moving stage marshals around ,,, so the question is if the organiser can survive without long services.
or a matter of stopping the head of the rally from meeting the tail on re-used roads or road sections.

"Can you possibly survive with just a good well written Route Book?"

Survive, sure.
Do an event BECAUSE it is only a well written Route Book? No.
NOT do an event because it didn't offer recce? Probably.

"If we can convince timing crews to stay up, how late can you boys stay up past your normal beddie-bye time?"

Don't forget radio operators, emergency services, course cars and a long list of other volunteers, Regardless, as long as I know in advance, I'll run as long as you want me to.

"Could you imagine driving all night long?"

Yes, yes I can.

"Will you help try and recruit timing crews?"

If I am bringing anyone with me from afar, it will likely be for my own service crew.

"Will you be willing to put up posters at your local Auto repair and Parts places nearby--and not just sit on posters?"

To what end?
Spectators create logistical and safety problems and force a re-direct of resources to babysit them. It is the teams that need to show something to their sponsors that should want the jam packed parc exposes and speccie stages.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 09:22AM by Morison.

Wish there was something like this local to me.

> Will you like stages that are narrow, curvy, maybe
> not pool table smooth?

A nice mix would be good.

> Will you like longer 15-20 miles or more stages?

Sure.

> Can you survive without a central service point
> and hours of service time after every 10-15
> miles?

Change the format and teams will adapt. Current rallying evolved into what it is because of forces that steered them that way over the years. If you shorten the course to a 1/4 mile, expect to see rail dragsters become the norm. Car design follows race design. I would sooner run this type of event in my Protege, not my 3.

> Can you possibly survive with just a good well
> written Route Book?

I hear tales (from Burress and others) that PNW route books are awesome. I've never experienced one...just eastern and midwestern route books, and I'm not real fond of their choices for inclusion vs. omission. If done old school...maybe allow maps and Potis?

> If we can convince timing crews to stay up, how
> late can you boys stay up past your normal
> beddie-bye time?

I want to try a marathon deal. Like have your codriver drive the long transits so you can catch a couple of zz's before you drive into the last stage where the sun is coming up.

> Could you imagine driving all night long?

I think I can imagine it. In my business, I pull all nighters from time to time. Add a little adrenaline and I think it would be fun.

> Will you help try and recruit timing crews?

Kinda hard from across the country.


> Lets talk and be serious, or as serious as we can
> considering.


Good luck getting this going!

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

How about a brisk Monte Carlo TSD over marathon type roads?

RCW 46.61.400
Basic rule and maximum limits.
(1) No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing. In every event speed shall be so controlled as may be necessary to avoid colliding with any person, vehicle or other conveyance on or entering the highway in compliance with legal requirements and the duty of all persons to use due care.

(2) Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with subsection (1) of this section, the limits specified in this section or established as hereinafter authorized shall be maximum lawful speeds, and no person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed in excess of such maximum limits.

(a) Twenty-five miles per hour on city and town streets;

(b) Fifty miles per hour on county roads;

(c) Sixty miles per hour on state highways.

The maximum speed limits set forth in this section may be altered as authorized in RCW 46.61.405, 46.61.410, and 46.61.415.

(3) The driver of every vehicle shall, consistent with the requirements of subsection (1) of this section, drive at an appropriate reduced speed when approaching and crossing an intersection or railway grade crossing, when approaching and going around a curve, when approaching a hill crest, when traveling upon any narrow or winding roadway, and when special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians or other traffic or by reason of weather or highway conditions.


[1965 ex.s. c 155 § 54; 1963 c 16 § 1. Formerly RCW 46.48.011.]

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

I've been thinking about something along the same lines since seeing the 1958 Coupe D'Alps stuff on YouTube.

I've got a route mapped out using mixed surfaces running up and down the Cumberland Plateau and Walden's Ridge in Tennessee starting in Chattanooga, running up to near KY and back down with about 36 hours of roads.

It would be strictly TSD, but so was the Coupe D'Alps, and in Tennessee unmarked roads are 65 mph.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain

Kieth,

Thanks for the reply! You make some good points and bring a different perspective. To an extent we are trying to make competitors think differently about rally. I have always thought that the sport was about being flexible and adaptive. We are trying to think outside the box on this one. We specifically want something different than Doo Wops.

The intended audience is all stage rally and TSD competitors.

Our "goals/expectations" are high miles over a short period of time for the least amount of money possible. Not like Targa Canada.

We want to challenge the service crews. When I was a professional rally mechanic I felt like I was part of the event.

I am still up in the air about running a TSD parallel to the stage event. I was also thinking about a hybrid event. Any thoughts?

You are right, in the end everything still depends on getting permission to use roads!

Can you please expand on your route book comments. Would you expect a recce on a marathon type event? Would that be a deal breaker for you?

Please don't take offense but it seems like you are locked into certain expectations in regards to an event. You make several valid points, but there may be another way.

Lurch,

Good idea about letting the co driver actually drive! I love it!

Thanks guys! We really appreciate the feed back! Keep it coming!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

What sanctioning body?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Rallymech Wrote:

"Thanks for the reply! You make some good points and bring a different perspective."

No Problem. Thanks for receiving the reply as it was intended.

"To an extent we are trying to make competitors think differently about rally. I have always thought that the sport was about being flexible and adaptive."

It certainly was, but has evolved (devolved) into something more structured. Changing how people think is a near impossible task.

"We are trying to think outside the box on this one. We specifically want something different than Doo Wops."

I've never done DooWops but it seems to be insanely popular with the competitors in the PacNW. In what ways do you want to be different.

"The intended audience is all stage rally and TSD competitors."
You're casting too wide of a net.
Don't forget that in many cases TSD competitors work stage events and in some cases stage competitors work TSD events, If you get them both entering... who's working?

"Our 'goals/expectations' are high miles over a short period of time for the least amount of money possible. Not like Targa Canada."

Maybe 'AlCan Light' is a model to look at,

"We want to challenge the service crews. When I was a professional rally mechanic I felt like I was part of the event."

At least in Western Canada we are now seeing a number of crews that compete with NO, or minimal, service crews. Our regional events in Alberta have moved the MTCs to the service park to facilitate this and we have recieved entries we otherwise wouldn't have had.

"I was also thinking about a hybrid event. Any thoughts?"
The minute you run an actual stage you bring the need for caged cars, H&N devices and a lot more infrastructure to the event. If I'm in a stage prepared car, I don't particularly want to be TSDing.

"Would you expect a recce on a marathon type event? Would that be a deal breaker for you?"
Most competitors I have talked to are not interested in running events without pace notes or quality organizer stage notes. That said you have to keep in mind that the crowd I hang with is accustomed to 2-pass recce and pace notes as the norm. (Not to be confused with The Norm.)

Marathon TSDs are a different animal.

"Please don't take offense but it seems like you are locked into certain expectations in regards to an event."
No offense taken.
I have worked, competed in and organized stage and longish TSD events (12hrs overnight) My expectations come from a real world understanding of the logistics involved and the resources available. (at least in my area)

"Good idea about letting the co driver actually drive! I love it!"

Tough to do unless they are virtually the same size, Adjusting belt and seat positions would be time prohibitive with today's car builds. (There was no way I could even get into the driver's seat of Norm's new car ... and that's the way it should be.

I think the answer is to start with an 'alcan light' concept where marathon regularities are complimented with rallycross-ish challenges. This would draw the largest crowd the fastest and could grow into something more along the line of what you are looking for.

TSD timing on transits of a stage event? I don't think the community would 'but in' to the concept but am willing to be proven wrong.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

>"Will you be willing to put up posters at your local Auto repair and Parts places >nearby--and not just sit on posters?"

>>To what end?
>>Spectators create logistical and safety problems and force a re-direct of >>resources to babysit them. It is the teams that need to show something to their >>sponsors that should want the jam packed parc exposes and speccie stages.

if it's asking for volunteers or competitors should the rally go into the night, then yes, if it's just for spectators then no, imo advertising should be based on asking for help the appropriate amount of time in advance of the event, not just announcing it to the public with a small mention of volunteering at the bottom

> Will you help try and recruit timing crews?

>> Kinda hard from across the country.

with the internet not really, take what you drive, get on the various boards, find local people to the area with similiar interests (meaning your car choice) and talk them into volunteering and supporting you and your brand, or for that fact anything else you may have in common with a group of people that can be found online, I've gotten people to volunteer for rallies on the other side of the country that I have never been to myself and not even on a car/racing type board

BTW, if this were local I would be willing to work throughout the night, I used to work all night rallies as a kid and I rather miss them.

However, I wouldn't work an all night rally out of state because I wouldn't be able to stay awake to drive back home, I have a hard enough time doing that now while working regular daytime rallies at the end of the weekend.

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, if this were local I would be willing to work
> throughout the night, I used to work all night
> rallies as a kid and I rather miss them.
>
> However, I wouldn't work an all night rally out of
> state because I wouldn't be able to stay awake to
> drive back home, I have a hard enough time doing
> that now while working regular daytime rallies at
> the end of the weekend.

So if an event was out of say Battleground WA, maybe 12-15 miles from Portland yet "out of state" you couldn't work it? 8)

The all night thing was is thrown out there cuase that's one way that normal-ordinary Divisionals could pack in 100-110 miles into an event that spanned total maybe 36 hours when I first started.

If we want to do an event with lots of miles, it might be something to have in the back pocket, but it's not carved in stone as a must do thing.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

touche'

within reasonable distance of where I live, I tend to think of Vancouver and it's nearby areas as Portland suburbs

but then, I also think of anything on the other side of Mt Hood as the east coast


I really miss the little overnight rallies that used to be held outside of Molalla in the early/mid 80's, they were small but they were close by and you just showed up, worked (or drove) all night and then went home

I hate centralized service and hour long service breaks.
Especially when I'm working service! End up sitting around all day and not having much of a challenge when the cars do come in because there's so much time.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hate centralized service and hour long service
> breaks.
> Especially when I'm working service! End up
> sitting around all day and not having much of a
> challenge when the cars do come in because there's
> so much time.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


I understand it from a cost perspective though, not having to pay for fuel to run a rig around all over the place.

But, I recall riding around all night in a service rig when my dad first started codriving, it's the first thing I experienced in the world of rally.

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> touche'

Touchie?
I'm married!!!!
You can't touchie me!!!!
You mean touché_
Eh bien!
>
> within reasonable distance of where I live, I tend
> to think of Vancouver and it's nearby areas as
> Portland suburbs
>
> but then, I also think of anything on the other
> side of Mt Hood as the east coast

Well weäre not certain just where we can actually get into the woods, so much is NFS and that is a different kettle of fish.
>
>
> I really miss the little overnight rallies that
> used to be held outside of Molalla in the
> early/mid 80's, they were small but they were
> close by and you just showed up, worked (or drove)
> all night and then went home

Yeah, sigh.
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.