I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but it's hard enough convincing a few guys to be on the service crew. A longer event wouldn't help in that regard. Also, not owning a service rig and trailer would make a non centralized service a problem. Most of the guys on this forum can't even afford to build their beater G2 cars or pay RA entry fees and expecting them to show up with a mobile service setup seems like a stretch.

I know I am being a nay sayer and not thinking outside the box...but it's hard to ignor these challenges. I mean there is a reason rally evolved into what it is right? Who the hell is going to insure this event anyway?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 01:31PM by DirkaDirkaJack.

DirkaDirkaJack Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but it's
> hard enough convincing a few guys to be on the
> service crew. A longer event wouldn't help in that
> regard. Also, not owning a service rig and trailer
> would make a non centralized service a problem.

Well i never owned a van till 10 years after i started and that was only when i was out east where it was always 180-800 miles to events.

You know what you'll be forced to do?
Talk with folks and double up,
build the car stonger
drive like it has to last




> Most of the guys on this forum can't even afford
> to build their beater G2 cars or pay RA entry fees


People can't afford that but 95% drive way nce cars, live in nice houses, take VACATIONS etc

People choose not to spend on some things.
We're thinking we offer a bigger challenge and maybe people will choose the bigger challenge of longer miles/less service and think "Damn if I drive like 9/10s and amke zero huge mistakes, I might just......."

> and expecting them to show up with a mobile
> service setup seems like a stretch.

Dn't expect anything except that to get it done everybody's goning to have to think and plan and that's part of what rally aleays was until very recently when it's become a mere contest of speed.
>
> I know I am being a nay sayer and not thinking
> outside the box...but it's hard to ignor these
> challenges. I mean there is a reason rally evolved
> into what it is right? Who the hell is going to
> insure this event anyway?

Thing is I know a lot of the change has been driven by the high dollar teams, and that means "You Know Who" demanding shorter intervals between service, shorter between gas, huge service times, streched out to 4 days lesurely scheduling.
When there was a Pro Rally Board and a Manufacturer's Council, I had people phoneing me with reports requesting that I would post things "for discussion" because of "politics" that they couldn't.

Many now involved know only the short, sprinty, limited mileage, take 4 day style events and doubtless will poo poo what I say that the trend to shorter, simplified, smoother, all day stage stuff has been pushed hard by certain Big Money interests for their won ends, and that's fine, they know everything even though things occured 10 years before they ever sat in a car. That's OK.


Nothing truly fundemental has changed except perceptions (a lot of us are a lot older now---but hell I'd do International moto-crosses, pack up drive literally all night and do another full length International the next day when i was late 20s,
physically we can do it---this discussion is Do YOU WANT TO?
See? First you decide you WANT TO, then you figure out how.

You want to?



Re Insurance: Same insurers as everybody else always using.
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jun 10, 2009 by
> DirkaDirkaJack.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hate centralized service and hour long service
> breaks.
> Especially when I'm working service! End up
> sitting around all day and not having much of a
> challenge when the cars do come in because there's
> so much time.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

Ok you hate sitting round pounding the pudding, what about the rest?

You coming up?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
"People choose not to spend on some things. We're thinking we offer a bigger challenge and maybe people will choose the bigger challenge of longer miles/less service and think 'Damn if I drive like 9/10s and amke zero huge mistakes, I might just..' "

Because winning by attrition is so rewarding.
I co-drove for a driver who did well in endurance events in India. He admitted that his success was based on getting to the end and beating the other cars that were on the side of the road. In all, He got tromped by the competition for the most part.

"Many now involved know only the short, sprinty, limited mileage, take 4 day style events and doubtless will poo poo what I say ..."

If you really want to have a discussion about this concept, stop thinking for other people and get off your high horse.

"Nothing truly fundemental has changed except perceptions..."

Are you really that out of touch John?
- Cars are being built and tuned with the max range in the rules in mind. (in fact, most of the top cars can't make the max distance and are begging for supplementary fuel drops)
- Competitor expectations have fundamentally changed
- Safety requirements and preparations (for cars, competitors and organizers) fundimentally changed
- Hoops and red tape for road permissions have fundimentally changed.
- Stage rally HAS fundimentally changed, like it or not (no matter the driving force behind the change)

"this discussion is Do YOU WANT TO?"

Want to what? you still haven't presented a clear vision of what you want to do beyond cheap, long and simple.

Are you talking about:
- two day event
- Standard NW style route book only
- ~200miles of competitive stage distance in as few segments as possible with as little repetition as possible
- Traveling service circus
- Order on the road would be Rally Moto, Rally Car, TSD car through the entire event
- no pomp, minimal ceremony

Start with a marathon TSD and see if you can build it from there.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

You seem to think that winning by attrition isn't happening currently, and I'm pretty sure it is.

Attrition happens when the car isn't prepped fully and something breaks, or because the team is driving the car/themselves beyond their means.

*edit* I'm speaking from experience with Oregon Trail where over the past few years it's been a race with extremely high attrition to which everyone I know starts to wonder why the fuck these competitors won't slow the hell down when they clearly can't handle the roads out here. Some people go back out the next day and then do it all again, too fast for what we offer and right back off the road.

Hell, even in rallycross I ended up with a 1st place for the season one year because I was the girl in the car that didn't break. Did I not deserve it because the others didn't keep their car running properly or because the drove so hard they broke?

Part of rally is proper planning and having the proper amount of control. Attrition happens when people and teams don't bother doing those things. What's that old saying "to finish first, first you must finish".

As a long time fan and worker I would love to see more of the "old style" competition. Does that mean I don't like what we have now? Sure I do. Why can't there be both? It's like saying there should only be one kind of racing. Why should there only be one type of stage rally?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 04:27PM by 12xalt.

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem to think that winning by attrition isn't
> happening currently, and I'm pretty sure it is.

No argument there,,, the difference is that I doubt that anyone is starting the event baking on others going off in order to score points.

At the front of the pack, they all charge because they have to if they *expect* to win, pace or show. Teams can fall into a podium (Jardevall in 2008, 3rd o/a but 4:43.9 behind the leader,) through attrition but that isn't a viable season long strategy for the overall championship or a tightly contested class.

> What's that old saying "to finish first, first you
> must finish".

the corollary to that is if you don't plan to finish first you never will.

> Why should there only be one type of stage rally?

I'm not suggesting that 'there can be only one.' But there are limited weekends, workers, entrants and resources.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Well... I'm up for something like this. It's the type of thing that attracted me to rally in the first place. I won't have a rally car for a few years probably (definitely not by next year), but I'll pitch in and help if it happens.

Getting everyone to agree on everything is impossible.

I for one like the idea of long stages, and long overall distance. Running through the night would be awesome.
I'm up for a good route book and no notes or recce.

I don't like it when service is all over the place. I hear the argument that it includes them as part of the team, and it is doeable to work with other teams to make it happen. Up to this point my wife has driven the service truck and taken care of the kids. Much easier to have a central service for my situation, but something different isn't a deal breaker. How about... it's ok to fill up at a regular gas station (or meet your service vehicle anywhere on the side of the road), but only have service a couple of times, and in one location?

My two cents. I really think a well done event that focused on endurance could get quite a following. I think people would come!

I love pretty much any type of stage. I'm not a big fan of hairpins though.
I love rallying on long stages. I hate transiting long stages.
I could survive with a route book that only gave junctions and which way to go. Done it before in Missouri where it always seemed to be miles between each instruction.
The real question is can you convince yourselves and the timing crews to stay up to my usual bedtime?
I could easily drive all night long...

---

Grant Hughes

Merrilee,

Very well put! I couldn't agree more!

Kieth,

You are keeping me on my toes!

"Are you talking about:
- two day event
- Standard NW style route book only
- ~200miles of competitive stage distance in as few segments as possible with as little repetition as possible
- Traveling service circus
- Order on the road would be Rally Moto, Rally Car, TSD car through the entire event
- no pomp, minimal ceremony"

Yes, that is the general idea. I am trying to come up with an event that is faster than a TSD and longer than a stage rally. I want to control speeds to reduce the required safety equipment by some graduated system of average speeds. My idea is to have crews focus on more on control, strategy and endurance. We already have stage rallies. I want something different. Earning a finishers plaque should be a mark of accomplishment!

Jack,

What do you think about a Dakar type service system? Each competitor gets space on a large truck for one box and two tires. Pump gas only.

Keep the ideas coming folks!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I am trying to
> come up with an event that is faster than a TSD
> and longer than a stage rally. I want to control
> speeds to reduce the required safety equipment by
> some graduated system of average speeds.

I proposed something like this to RA 6 months ago, the reply was that it was "a recipe for disaster."

But the GT classes from the Targa Newfoundland events are pretty much exactly what you describe. They run slower speeds and require less safety gear and those are the most popular classes of the event.

I'm still "working" on my hardcore overnight tsd. ~200 miles, 75% unpaved. Some of the roads will get you airborn at 35mph.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 07:36PM by Carl S.

Carl,

R.A. are not the people to talk to for this! I have learned that really fast.

The GT class at T.N. is exactly what I was using as a model.

Your rally sounds so good! I wish it wasn't so far away!

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I think the Targa model is something to look at.

Classes are given target times they have to beat, going faster does nothing to improve the scores and there are 'speed restriction zones' where you can slow down the cars for particularly dangerous spots. Tagets could be set so that 'historic' cars could be competitive with open class monsters. (and would reduce the number of open class monsters.)

The problem will be finding a sanctioning body that would play along with it.

The 'Dakar' service truck idea is worthwhile exploring.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Kieth,

I don't know why I didn't mention it at the beginning but much of my thinking is based on the Targa concept. We could even call the event a Targa Sprint.

JVL and I were talking about the service truck idea this afternoon. I think that we would need two rigs just for redundancy. Can you imagine the shit show if the only service rig broke down or got lost?

I will be talking to NASA very soon.

Robert.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> JVL and I were talking about the service truck
> idea this afternoon. I think that we would need
> two rigs just for redundancy. Can you imagine the
> shit show if the only service rig broke down or
> got lost?

You would rent new(ish) trucks to carry the service gear and GPS the service locations ...

> I will be talking to NASA very soon.
Good luck with that... I'll note that Targa Newfie has gone fully independant and isn't affiliated with ASN Canada FIA at all. Last I heard, TCW is looking to do the same.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

So, no one has said anything about a sanctioning body yet. Are you planning this under the table?

Also, for what its worth (probably not much) I was talking to Buffum in service at olympus and I asked what he thought of the shorter rallies, and he was in favor of them as after about 100 miles he said the winner is pretty much decided and it just costs more and is more wear on the cars afterwards. Something to consider, i suppose.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.