9/10ths

In the 'new event' thread there has been some talk about people running at 9/10ths and thinking that means that there can be less safety equipment and general car preparation.

I don't get it.

I do understand driving to preserve the car and I do understand backing off to preserve a lead or a position. Backing off to 90% when you can is art of the game and, as has been said, to finish first, first you must finish... I get all of that. What I don't get is starting an event with the intent of not testing your limits.

I suspect that it is more a issue of semantics than actual differences of opinions ... but what does 9/10ths look like to you?

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Here's a random semi related example.

If I am messing around in my cul de sac, im at like 3/10s. No helmet, MAYBE goves. Thats it

If I am on a trail, I will ALWAYS have a helmet and gloves on. I'd call this 4-5/10

If I am on a rough trail, or going fast, I will have helmet, gloves, shin armor probably 6-7/10

If I am going to be jumping/going EVEN faster a lot, or know I might eat it a few times, I will have full face helmet, goggles, gloves, shin armor. 8-9/10

If I am racing I will wear ff helmet, goggles, gloves, shin and forearm armor, and I'm waiting until I start REALLY racing (Ive only done some mini DH races on "ghetto" courses. Nothing lift accessed or like Port angles yet) to get the core armor too. 10-11/10ths


9/10ths in anything is too much commitment to not be doing it as you would compete REGULARLY. All of that gear is hot that I wear while biking, but it helps me get used to it. If you only wear it when you race, you never get used to having it on and are MUCH more uncomfortable.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
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> 9/10ths in anything is too much commitment to not
> be doing it as you would compete REGULARLY. All of
> that gear is hot that I wear while biking, but it
> helps me get used to it. If you only wear it when
> you race, you never get used to having it on and
> are MUCH more uncomfortable.

During testing days I wear an old G-Force helmet because it's slightly more comfortable because it's open face than my Sparco. Also way easier on and off with glasses for open face. On hot days like last week I also wear t-shirts and shorts.
I don't think 9/10th necessarily means you're going 9/10th of your speed or is a mathematical ratio to giving it 100%, but more philosophical. It means you might attack hard on a wide open easy to see corner but take it easy around a blind one, it means you lift over the crest and don't keep it pinned. It means on the 500 yard flat you don't keep it pinned until you hit the top of 5th. If you take away the flat out part of the competition, there is still fun to be had, still things to learn, and if it's affordable seat time then it will be popular...

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Grant Hughes

9/10ths relates only to your skill level. 9/10ths of my skill may only get me a speed equal to 5/10ths of Gronholms speed in the same car.
To be honest with myself, in about 10 stage rallies, I probably average about 8/10ths of my potential. There have been a few stages that were closer to 10/10ths.
It's fast enough that a lapse in judgement, reading the road wrong/a very wrong note can still get you in a lot of trouble. I rolled my Talon at Wild West in 2004 on an easy bit. Just got off the 'line' and into some slippery stuff and slid off the outside... really a lapse in concentration, and a lack of experience.
9/10ths is fast, but leaves a bit on the table for stuff like that. Is it safer than 10/10ths? Of course. It's still racing speed though, and in a modern car like a Suby it's fast enough to get you killed.

Here's my opinion. I'm a 34 yo father of two. I have a dangerous job, but the reason that most military pilots don't crash and die is tons of training, and that we are careful to manage risk. That being said, if I signed up for a TSD type event, that was on CLOSED gravel roads, I'm certain I'd pick up the pace and test the limits. Probably more than appropriate for a car w/o safety gear.
I find it hard to believe that a 25 yo newb with less restraint, and less experience would do different. In fact, that driver may not have enough experience to judge 9/10ths and end up going faster.

It's a different thread, but I think the idea of an endurance based event is fantastic! That is what will keep the speeds down. Knowing you have to conserve your car for a very long time. Something like this might be what we need to turn the sport around, at least for some of us. There is a way to make this happen... and I'm in!

People starting out really don't know what 9/10s is. Until you've reached and exceeded 10/10s you can't know where 9/10s is. To further complicate things limits change with road conditions as well as car condition and even crew condition. Many times drivers will back off a tad to preserve the car or other reasons and then comse the 'big one'. Timing is off, concentration drops and failure is imminent.

Some people just drive to have fun, never push the envelope, others race shopping carts at Top Foods. How can 20 medium and fast drivers all make a certain corner then one of the back markers rolls there?


I suppose that any TSD on gravel has more risk than tarmac if some people are pushing a bit. I think that is a combined TSD?Rally were held then start the TSD cars first. They would then have no basis to try and compare times with rally cars, then roads would be a bit nicer for them and if there was an issue the experienced rally teams would be no far behind.

Just think about what happens at 11/10ths, or 10.1/10ths for that matter. There are about 7 million u-tube videos to show what happens...

alkun Wrote:
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> Just think about what happens at 11/10ths, or
> 10.1/10ths for that matter. There are about 7
> million u-tube videos to show what happens...


Yes, and it doesn't matter if rally, road race or skate boards. But if you ask many of the rally crashes they'll say they weren't driving at 10/10s or even 9/10s for that matter. Usually it's a story like " I'm not sure what happened, we just came over the crest and must have dropped a wheel off. We weren't pushing hard" I've heard it at every rally I've been to.

Keith,

"What I don't get is starting an event with the intent of not testing your limits." How about a different set of limits? The limit of your discipline as a driver. The limit of your driving precision. The limit of your strategy and management skills as a crew.

I think that 9/10ths means something different to everyone. The term can refer purely to speed but it can also be a reference to intensity or difficulty. I can be at 10/10ths on a TSD rally. In that context it means that I am working really hard managing my speed and staying on time.

Jason,

Thanks for bringing up the concept of risk management. I am familiar with risk management in an aviation environment. Could you please explain a bit for our younger viewers.

"I find it hard to believe that a 25 yo newb with less restraint, and less experience would do different. In fact, that driver may not have enough experience to judge 9/10ths and end up going faster." Gene and I were talking about this yesterday.

Gene,

"Yes, and it doesn't matter if rally, road race or skate boards. But if you ask many of the rally crashes they'll say they weren't driving at 10/10s or even 9/10s for that matter. Usually it's a story like " I'm not sure what happened, we just came over the crest and must have dropped a wheel off. We weren't pushing hard" I've heard it at every rally I've been to." Oh how true!

Robert.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

heymagic Wrote:
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> .....if you ask many of the rally
> crashes they'll say they weren't driving at 10/10s
> or even 9/10s for that matter. Usually it's a
> story like " I'm not sure what happened, we just
> came over the crest and must have dropped a wheel
> off. We weren't pushing hard"


Like, dude, it wasn't in the notes.

Some great observations here.

Robert:
I suppose you could look at 'extreme precision' as 10/10ths ... but I had never considered that in the context of the other thread.

Jens:
So now you're saying people never left the road on blind rallies? Ever heard of a 'gotcha?' I've had more moments on notes when we were preserving a lead than when pushing at the limit. It is about staying focused.

Gene:
"To further complicate things limits change with road conditions as well as car condition and even crew condition."
Very good observation that I fully agree with. A crew can keep the same pace but go from 9/10ths to 11/10ths in two corners.

In the end, I think I see 10/10ths as a pace where you are setting just under your best times for a stage and you are causing minimal harm to the car.
11/10ths is a pace where you start getting sloppy and, if unchecked, you end up visiting the scenery.
That said, if you don't get to 11/10ths you won't grow as a driver/team. In my opinion and experience, today's 11/10ths very quickly becomes tomorrow's 10/10ths.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
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> Jens:
> So now you're saying people never left the road on
> blind rallies?


I never said that.

I have previously said people should not drive past what they can see.

Trusting notes will eventually kill a number of spectators or non-rally
related "civilians". It could be in the next few days, or years.
It will happen.... unfortunately.

The new form of rallying is, in my opinion, unsafe, foolish, and will
eventually kill the sport in this country.

It's just my opinion. You don't have to believe me. Take your
pictures and bury your head in the sand with the others.






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2009 02:49PM by Jens.

Jens Wrote:
> I never said that.
but you brought up notes in a context about the level of commitment on a stage, specifically quoting Gene's comment about people leaving the road when they are 'cruising' and not pushing.

> The new form of rallying is, in my opinion, unsafe, foolish, and will eventually kill the sport in this country.
It's just my opinion. You don't have to believe me.

I do disagree with you, and there is not point in discussing it since you've shown no hint of wavering on your opinion.

>Take your pictures and bury your head in the sand with the others.
I don't generally take pictures at rallies any more ... too busy with other things. one thing I don't do, however, is bury my head in the sand.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Morison Wrote:
--
> >Take your pictures and bury your head in the
> sand with the others.
> I don't generally take pictures at rallies any
> more ... too busy with other things. one thing I
> don't do, however, is bury my head in the sand.
>
>
>
Damn I am forced to defend Morison, a major admited troll against the chages of an 12 years plus admitted Trioll!!???
Look Jens he said it right there he doesn't bury his head in the sand.
Here is what is closer:

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Up your's Van Blowhardham.





Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2009 04:25PM by Jens.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
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> Damn I am forced to defend Morison, a major
> admited troll...

I've never admitted to being a troll (nor would I, since I'm not)

But why ruin a good, at least till now, thread?

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.