1999 SCCA Performance Rally "Vision Guide"

"I like people who can't work on cars."

Amen!

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

> Robert.
> "You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy."
> Eddie Fiorelli.


Wait a minute. He said that? Has he really met you?

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see this same line of thought on several boating
> forums. Guys who have a little skill seem to
> think that all the other boat owners are idiots if
> they can't work on the outdrive or rebuild a carb.
> I've seen so many "my neighbor who works on cars
> or boats" screwed up messes it's laughable. There
> is no rule that says a driver has to be able to
> work on a car. There is no rule that says a good
> mechanic or fabricator should be able to drive
> well either. If everyone built there own cars,
> and I mean really built them, then JVL wouldn't be
> selling any struts, Dave wouldn't sell cages and I
> wouldn't ever work on Malcolm's Talon and ACP's
> Evo. I like people who can't work on cars.
>
>

For real. Plenty of people went to school and got high paying jobs so they could afford to have a lot of disposable income to devote to such things as car racing. They can pay other people to build and work on their cars so they can just have fun driving them. Nothing wrong with that.
Hell, when I was starting college my declared major was computer science. If I had stuck with that I'd have a whole stable of rally cars by now (and a house, etc., don't get me stated.) But I could'nt stand it and then I discovered the school I was going to (WWU) had a really good automotive program and the course of my life changed. Or perhaps more accurately I should say the course of my life didn't change...

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Back to the vision plan...I've read that before
> and still don't see an actual problem with it nor
> reason for anyone to get upset. Having a tiered
> system is fine. Having a late model clean car is
> fine. Looking professional is fine. Honestly the
> condition of some of the cars now wouldn't have
> been accepted in the late 80's, years before that
> plan was thunk up. There was provisions for
> regional rallies, no limit on car age and
> specifically states affordable events. So how is
> that really any different? The problem I see is
> getting enough top tier guys to make it work. We
> have plenty of regional guys to keep that part of
> the plan working.
>
> The real and only reason this plan is ever frowned
> upon is that many of us old, traditional ralliests
> are non-conformists. We chose rally because of the
> fun, excitement, challenge AND lack of rules. We
> simply hate coloring within the lines...that's why
> were are better than the snobby road racers of the
> old days. It matters not if we "do" only that we
> "could".


Gene, remember when they started requiring fire suits (single layer, btw) for Divisional (a.k.a. Club) rallies? Oh god, it was then end of rally then, too! Who could afford that? Or even earlier when they started requiring full roll cages for Coef. 1 events. They're driving the little guy out of the sport!

Yup, seemed pretty catastrophic at the time, now you look back and grin. We used to get the numbers for free at every event and the SCCA was pretty fussy about not having rally cars driven around with the numbers on post event.,Now they're $45 bucks a shot.

I remember my first event ,Olympus, and Mark and Duane with the BowWow Rabbit. We figured they had more money in the seats than I had in my car. Probably not true, but I was as low budget as it gets with that Datsun. It was painted though...

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Hell, when I was starting college my declared
> major was computer science. If I had stuck with
> that I'd have a whole stable of rally cars by now
> (and a house, etc., don't get me stated.)
>

WAIT a minute....I DID stick with that route. Where's my goddamned stable of cars and house!!?? fuck....I done got robbed!!


I blame the economy.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Hell, when I was starting college my
> declared
> > major was computer science. If I had stuck
> with
> > that I'd have a whole stable of rally cars by
> now
> > (and a house, etc., don't get me stated.)
> >
>
> WAIT a minute....I DID stick with that route.
> Where's my goddamned stable of cars and house!!??
> fuck....I done got robbed!!
>
>
> I blame the economy.
>
>

Same here! At least I got the house, but no stable of rally cars. One day I'll have a nice assortiment of cars and I will be able to go play in the woods with the one I feel like that day. But I might be too old to go play once I can afford them!

In about 4.5 hours I'm done being an IT guy for 2 days so I can do my 2nd (non-paying) job of being a mechanic! So yes being in IT and working on cars are not exclusive!

I did my first paid mechanic job last weekend, I changed the front brakes on a friends (who's a manual worker, go figure) and he gave me 6 beers! a 6 pack being around 10$ here, I think I'll have to revise my rate if I want to get rich, or at least drunk!

---

Francois

Without wasting any more time than has already been wasted in the last 10 years on this subject if we boil down to the essence of what it was it was this:

All the volunteers and workers of every rally will continute to DONATE theur time and gas money and motel and food money,

AND all of us peons shall buy NEW 5 year or less cars and pay whatever is demanded

SO THAT there will be what appears as a "real live" event which can add 'realism' and'color' in the background

SO THAT there would be an air or a simulacrum of legitimacy when the MEDIA would film a story featuring a core of 6-8 "Full Time Professional" drivers---which of course meant "extremely wealthy individuals , preferrably of the "Trustafarian"
sort if they are young so the have some chance of looking good ie not obese on camera.
To quote "It is natural that the media would concentrate on those teams which paid for the coverage"

Bullshit.

His job and the Media's is to make a readable interesting story on who, what, where, when, and how WHOEVER did something newsworthy did.
Subaru's advertising department is paid to promote what Subarus in the event did and Mitsubishi's ad dept had the same job.

And the utter extreme ARROGANCE of some "Media Realtions" twerp deciding in advance WHO would be allowed at "Press Stage", PRESUMING to eliminate PEOPLE--Paid MEMBERS from contact with the Media because they weren't driving a "bought a ride Sububishi or Misterburu is beyond belief.
Specifically publically excluding in advance John Lane's very colorful, very FAST car and saying "those who wish to attend media days with legitimate reasons can contact....."
FUCK HIM.

The Manufacturer Council carried the idea of Pay to Play: if you wanted to support a Josn Wimpey and a Tom Burress and have the "Media" say ANYTHING WHEN THE DRIVER DRIVES the car to a good result then you must pay
$25 THOUSAND DOLLARS to somebody, then you "got a seat" on the "Council". and your car could get points in the "Manufacturer's Championship".

No pay $25,000 to whoever? Then even if your sponsored cart finishes 4th Overall,
there will be no reference at all at the end of the year---at all.
And maybe some guy 20-22 or even second from last places back in a Iscrewedabishi
is shown to be leading the points race for Manufacturers.


The seemingly dreamt up by some stoner it came to me in a "vision" was legitimately derided as inappropriate to the situation on the ground and despite the "torch" being passed when Spitzner "I got the licks to...." quit, and the program carried out relentlessly,

There is still no Series Sponsor.
There is now far less contingency money to any other vehicles other than one
There are still just barely adequate entries, ZERO GROWTH, indeed regression.
Costs have quadrupled for the administrative/sanction/entry part of things

It is still a few guys just playing at a passtime.


Only the Facade has been rebuilt and tarted up with more (self made) Media.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2009 12:41PM by john vanlandingham.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without wasting any more time than has already
> been wasted in the last 10 years on this subject
> if we boil down to the essence of what it was it
> was this:
>
> All the volunteers and workers of every rally will
> continute to DONATE theur time and gas money and
> motel and food money,
>
> AND all of us peons shall buy NEW 5 year or less
> cars and pay whatever is demanded
>
> SO THAT there will be what appears as a "real
> live" event which can add 'realism' and'color' in
> the background
>
> SO THAT there would be an air or a simulacrum of
> legitimacy when the MEDIA would film a story
> featuring a core of 6-8 "Full Time Professional"
> drivers---which of course meant "extremely wealthy
> individuals , preferrably of the "Trustafarian"
> sort if they are young so the have some chance of
> looking good ie not obese on camera.
> To quote "It is natural that the media would
> concentrate on those teams which paid for the
> coverage"
>
> Bullshit.
>
> His job and the Media's is to make a readable
> interesting story on who, what, where, when, and
> how WHOEVER did something newsworthy did.
> Subaru's advertising department is paid to promote
> what Subarus in the event did and Mitsubishi's ad
> dept had the same job.
>
> And the utter extreme ARROGANCE of some "Media
> Realtions" twerp deciding in advance WHO would be
> allowed at "Press Stage", PRESUMING to eliminate
> PEOPLE--Paid MEMBERS from contact with the Media
> because they weren't driving a "bought a ride
> Sububishi or Misterburu is beyond belief.
> Specifically publically excluding in advance John
> Lane's very colorful, very FAST car and saying
> "those who wish to attend media days with
> legitimate reasons can contact....."
> FUCK HIM.
>
> The Manufacturer Council carried the idea of Pay
> to Play: if you wanted to support a Josn Wimpey
> and a Tom Burress and have the "Media" say
> ANYTHING WHEN THE DRIVER DRIVES the car to a good
> result then you must pay
> $25 THOUSAND DOLLARS to somebody, then you "got a
> seat" on the "Council". and your car could get
> points in the "Manufacturer's Championship".
>
> No pay $25,000 to whoever? Then even if your
> sponsored cart finishes 4th Overall,
> there will be no reference at all at the end of
> the year---at all.
> And maybe some guy 20-22 or even second from last
> places back in a Iscrewedabishi
> is shown to be leading the points race for
> Manufacturers.
>
>
> The seemingly dreamt up by some stoner it came to
> me in a "vision" was legitimately derided as
> inappropriate to the situation on the ground and
> despite the "torch" being passed when Spitzner "I
> got the licks to...." quit, and the program
> carried out relentlessly,
>
> There is still no Series Sponsor.
> There is now far less contingency money to any
> other vehicles other than one
> There are still just barely adequate entries, ZERO
> GROWTH, indeed regression.
> Costs have quadrupled for the
> administrative/sanction/entry part of things
>
> It is still a few guys just playing at a
> passtime.
>
>
> Only the Facade has been rebuilt and tarted up
> with more (self made) Media.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jul 17, 2009 by john
> vanlandingham.


No, it clearly states an affordable regional program for cars over 5 years old. That would be us peons. As far as media it is no different now than you think the plan outlined. Burress or Lane likely won't get national coverage no matter how well they do. Even Pastrana doesn't get true national coverage. Rally coverage is pretty much a regional proposition. Whomever wins Olympus or OT isn't going to get mentioned in Albany New York , unless they are from there. Volunteers are volunteers, before, after and in the future. Without a way to charge, seat and entertain tens of thousands of fans Rally will never be a money maker. That's the way it is.

The plan never materialized but that doesn't mean the thought behind much of it was flawed. Without goals little is ever achieved. Even lofty goals have been achieved every now and then.

No reason for any manufacturer to get involved for contingency. The old beater cars you push relentlessly have no marketability or relevence to todays automotive market so I don't understand your complaint on this issue.

There are people (local people) who are moving ahead , Mager, Garth and even these guys http://www.specialstage.com/2009/07/16/vermont-sportscar-to-support-driver-mark-fox-and-the-army-national-guard-with-an-open-class-subaru-at-the-2009-new-england-forest-rally/ who just a short while ago were beating around here in and old BMW 2002. It does take some effort and expenditure on competitors part to see sucess.

Go to any drift event, drag race, road race and you will see lots of late model iron with massive dollars spent. My neighbor is running nearly 800hp and 11second 1/4 miles in a newer Mustang. Did it all himself and he is just a workin stiff. He got invited to Pinks. Our local dirt track season winner doesn't expect to get the press and fame that Jeff Gorson gets, if he does then the meds aren't working...

No one will ever compete in old spec, low spec, low dollar equipment and have the racing world roll out the red carpet. Nice fantasy but not reality. Rally is still the only sport where the poorest, brokest, cheapest bastard around can run the same course, at the same time and compare times with the elite. If I could figure a way to sell Tercel engines for $20000 and do one a month I sure as hell would. If I could find 20 guys to pay a $10,000 entry to a rally, I sure as hell would. The corporate world , sponsors, advertisers, television, manufactures are all interested in selling new profit producing products to people with money. "Detroit" makes nothing from you hanging around Pick-A-Part.

Rally doesn't just need more competitors, it needs more competitors who make $300k a year. If someone pulls up my driveway with a '78 beater Chev and says I don't want to spend any money on it, can you just patch it up? I just turn them around , pat them on the ass and send them down the street. No money in working for free. The Plan would have been great if it had worked.

But since neither RA nor NRS pattern their program after The Plan it really is a moot point and certainly not worth arguing over, is it?

heymagic Wrote:


> Rally doesn't just need more competitors, it needs
> more competitors who make $300k a year.

WTF?

---

Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]

RallyTaco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
>
>
> > Rally doesn't just need more competitors, it
> needs
> > more competitors who make $300k a year.
>
> WTF?
>


I think he meant in order for the manufacturers to get involved, and to have a viable national circuit, as he said, the older cars dont matter to manufacturers.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

I get that and I also get that the US could have both a National whoopty doo circuit and strong regional rallies but still that's a helluva sentence. Makes me feel icky.

---

Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Without wasting any more time than has
> already
> > been wasted in the last 10 years on this
> subject
> > if we boil down to the essence of what it was
> it
> > was this:
> >
> > All the volunteers and workers of every rally
> will
> > continute to DONATE theur time and gas money
> and
> > motel and food money,
> >
> > AND all of us peons shall buy NEW 5 year or
> less
> > cars and pay whatever is demanded
> >
> > SO THAT there will be what appears as a
> "real
> > live" event which can add 'realism'
> and'color' in
> > the background
> >
> > SO THAT there would be an air or a simulacrum
> of
> > legitimacy when the MEDIA would film a story
> > featuring a core of 6-8 "Full Time
> Professional"
> > drivers---which of course meant "extremely
> wealthy
> > individuals , preferrably of the
> "Trustafarian"
> > sort if they are young so the have some
> chance of
> > looking good ie not obese on camera.
> > To quote "It is natural that the media would
> > concentrate on those teams which paid for
> the
> > coverage"
> >
> > Bullshit.
> >
> > His job and the Media's is to make a
> readable
> > interesting story on who, what, where, when,
> and
> > how WHOEVER did something newsworthy did.
> > Subaru's advertising department is paid to
> promote
> > what Subarus in the event did and
> Mitsubishi's ad
> > dept had the same job.
> >
> > And the utter extreme ARROGANCE of some
> "Media
> > Realtions" twerp deciding in advance WHO
> would be
> > allowed at "Press Stage", PRESUMING to
> eliminate
> > PEOPLE--Paid MEMBERS from contact with the
> Media
> > because they weren't driving a "bought a
> ride
> > Sububishi or Misterburu is beyond belief.
> > Specifically publically excluding in advance
> John
> > Lane's very colorful, very FAST car and
> saying
> > "those who wish to attend media days with
> > legitimate reasons can contact....."
> > FUCK HIM.
> >
> > The Manufacturer Council carried the idea of
> Pay
> > to Play: if you wanted to support a Josn
> Wimpey
> > and a Tom Burress and have the "Media" say
> > ANYTHING WHEN THE DRIVER DRIVES the car to a
> good
> > result then you must pay
> > $25 THOUSAND DOLLARS to somebody, then you
> "got a
> > seat" on the "Council". and your car could
> get
> > points in the "Manufacturer's Championship".
> >
> > No pay $25,000 to whoever? Then even if your
> > sponsored cart finishes 4th Overall,
> > there will be no reference at all at the end
> of
> > the year---at all.
> > And maybe some guy 20-22 or even second from
> last
> > places back in a Iscrewedabishi
> > is shown to be leading the points race for
> > Manufacturers.
> >
> >
> > The seemingly dreamt up by some stoner it
> came to
> > me in a "vision" was legitimately derided as
> > inappropriate to the situation on the ground
> and
> > despite the "torch" being passed when
> Spitzner "I
> > got the licks to...." quit, and the program
> > carried out relentlessly,
> >
> > There is still no Series Sponsor.
> > There is now far less contingency money to
> any
> > other vehicles other than one
> > There are still just barely adequate entries,
> ZERO
> > GROWTH, indeed regression.
> > Costs have quadrupled for the
> > administrative/sanction/entry part of things
> >
> > It is still a few guys just playing at a
> > passtime.
> >
> >
> > Only the Facade has been rebuilt and tarted
> up
> > with more (self made) Media.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John Vanlandingham
> > Sleezattle, WA, USA
> >
> > Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
> >
> > www.jvab.f4.ca
> >
> >
> >
> > Edited 1 times. Last edit at Jul 17, 2009 by
> john
> > vanlandingham.
>
>
> No, it clearly states an affordable regional
> program for cars over 5 years old. That would be
> us peons. As far as media it is no different now
> than you think the plan outlined. Burress or Lane
> likely won't get national coverage no matter how
> well they do. Even Pastrana doesn't get true
> national coverage. Rally coverage is pretty much a
> regional proposition. Whomever wins Olympus or OT
> isn't going to get mentioned in Albany New York ,
> unless they are from there. Volunteers are
> volunteers, before, after and in the future.
> Without a way to charge, seat and entertain tens
> of thousands of fans Rally will never be a money
> maker. That's the way it is.
>
> The plan never materialized but that doesn't mean
> the thought behind much of it was flawed. Without
> goals little is ever achieved. Even lofty goals
> have been achieved every now and then.
>
> No reason for any manufacturer to get involved for
> contingency. The old beater cars you push
> relentlessly have no marketability or relevence to
> todays automotive market so I don't understand
> your complaint on this issue.
>
> There are people (local people) who are moving
> ahead , Mager, Garth and even these guys who
> just a short while ago were beating around here in
> and old BMW 2002. It does take some effort and
> expenditure on competitors part to see sucess.
>
> Go to any drift event, drag race, road race and
> you will see lots of late model iron with massive
> dollars spent. My neighbor is running nearly 800hp
> and 11second 1/4 miles in a newer Mustang. Did it
> all himself and he is just a workin stiff. He got
> invited to Pinks. Our local dirt track season
> winner doesn't expect to get the press and fame
> that Jeff Gorson gets, if he does then the meds
> aren't working...
>
> No one will ever compete in old spec, low spec,
> low dollar equipment and have the racing world
> roll out the red carpet. Nice fantasy but not
> reality. Rally is still the only sport where the
> poorest, brokest, cheapest bastard around can run
> the same course, at the same time and compare
> times with the elite. If I could figure a way to
> sell Tercel engines for $20000 and do one a month
> I sure as hell would. If I could find 20 guys to
> pay a $10,000 entry to a rally, I sure as hell
> would. The corporate world , sponsors,
> advertisers, television, manufactures are all
> interested in selling new profit producing
> products to people with money. "Detroit" makes
> nothing from you hanging around Pick-A-Part.
>
> Rally doesn't just need more competitors, it needs
> more competitors who make $300k a year. If someone
> pulls up my driveway with a '78 beater Chev and
> says I don't want to spend any money on it, can
> you just patch it up? I just turn them around ,
> pat them on the ass and send them down the street.
> No money in working for free. The Plan would have
> been great if it had worked.
>
> But since neither RA nor NRS pattern their program
> after The Plan it really is a moot point and
> certainly not worth arguing over, is it?


Owned! (In the parlance of the youth.)

RallyTaco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get that and I also get that the US could have
> both a National whoopty doo circuit and strong
> regional rallies but still that's a helluva
> sentence. Makes me feel icky.


That doesnt make any sense... Why do you feel "icky?" Are you afraid of national circuits? Why is it a "whoopty doo" circuit?

Whats wrong with people wanting to travel across the country and race in different styles of forest/areas?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

heymagic Wrote:
> Rally doesn't just need more competitors, it needs
> more competitors who make $300k a year.

Multiple parts to this statement.

1) "just" - this means that rally needs both "ordinary" people _and_ "wealthy" people

2) "make $300k a year" - so, if the touted figures are that a 9 event national series takes about that same amount to do properly (compete for win, not just participate) we're talking about someone who could _easily_ afford a full regional series (6ish events, all one coast). Is anyone really against the idea that it would be great for rally to add 20-30 guys who would be at every single event on your coast?

This sport uses lots of money. I'd love to have five dozen more folks involved who had plenty of it, it would make it cheaper for everyone else. As long as they weren't jerks. But I wouldn't want broke jerks either. I'm just going to have a no-jerk policy.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.