1999 SCCA Performance Rally "Vision Guide"

I miss it from the past. What happened that it isn't all that enticing to that kind of driver anymore?

I think having that type of talent around as role models for our up and coming drivers could help us come closer to being a spring board towards a higher level, WRC. Who in the states is truly pushing to get to that level right now? Kyle?

Again with the soccer correlations. The us soccer community has recently viewed the signing of but a few American born players to the Barclay's Premier as a GREAT success for the national soccer community. How many US drivers has the National series been able to groom to the point of success at the HIGHEST level?

---

Zap zap my ass...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2009 04:26PM by slidewayswrx.

"someone wearing blue and gold behind a RA desk" X-games and Subaru sure pay the cost to be da boss!

And what the heck is wrong with Canadians, eh? What is this a South Park episode?

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

They have floppy heads and beddie liddle eyes. And Bryon Adams

---

Zap zap my ass...

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And this national level of
> mediocrity would also seem to be a pretty good
> reason to isolate the pro from the club cars
> because it certainly can't look good for the money
> men when a unheard of kid in say a golf or a crx
> shows up and competes for top times of the day.

When has that happened?


> I often find myself drawing parallels between
> american rally and soccer. Both international
> sports trying to find there place in the US. It
> would be great to see rally do something like the
> MLS. They have been able to bring some media
> attention their way by signing on great
> international stars in their waning years.

Who is going to pay for them?

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So, you're saying that the sudden increase in
> minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th had nothing
> to do with the possibility of a competitive Open
> Class Ford Fiesta that could easily achieve that
> minimum weight and thus have similar power but 700
> lbs less weight than the Subaru had nothing to do
> with the decision and implementation of this rule?
>

That rule is effective in 2010. So, the Ford guys still have a full season to come over and kick everyone's ass. I'm certain that *everyone* would welcome them and that includes the guys at RA and Subaru. Subaru has stated very clearly that they would like to see some competition and they recognize the value of winning against a worthy opponent. Unless I'm missing something, the Fiestas at this year's X Games can be as light as 2700 pounds. They should dominate, right?

Anyway, what is the point in having such a low minimum weight when nobody is hitting it? Maybe the rule did have the Fiesta in mind, but even if it did, there's nothing wrong with trying to keep the playing field level. Most successful racing series have a minimum weight that all cars need to come in above and generally, all of the cars are at that weight. If the weight was left low and only the Fiesta could hit that weight, then everyone would be bitching about how the rules favor Ford.

I don't get all the rubbing on top guys. They work hard to be where they are. It might be a different kind of "hard" work, but it's still hard. If you got Ken, Travis, Tanner, ACP, etc in a room without cameras and asked them how good they are compared to the world, I'm sure you'd hear the truth- They do fine in the U.S, and they still have some things to learn to be competitive world-wide. Now, get they're Marketing guys or agents in the room and you'd hear a different story. That's the job of the marketeer- to make things sound the best way possible, and to garner excitement. Some of you guys act like there should be a disclaimer on every bit of marketing and advertising that goes out.

Further, why should Subaru bring in any better drivers than they have today? Remember that Subaru rallies to sell cars. Right now, they have good drivers who help them sell cars. If Ford decides to come over and have Gronholm beat everyone, then maybe Subaru can bring Petter over to compete. Right now, there's no reason to do that.

There will always be a gap in budget, operations, and marketing, (note that I didn't include competitiveness here) between those who are rallying for fun (almost all of us here in the states) and those who are rallying as a business.

I wasn't around in 1999, but I have met Kurt Spitzner and he seemed like a very genuine, nice guy. He also has worked hard to organize Rally Colorado. I just wanted to throw that out there for those who wouldn't know it.

A quick note on the X Games jump: I hope they change it so nobody has to nose-dive and crash. Nobody wants to see a crash-fest. Now, if they intentionally changed it to favor Subarus at the expense of Ford or Mitsubishi, that would suck- But I'm pretty sure nobody is smart enough to be able to do that without extensive testing of each car over real jumps, so I doubt it is happening and I'm positive that RA wouldn't do it intentionally.

Doug

GC Subarus can get to the weight pretty easy. Iorio's was near there if I recall the post-event tech inspections.

You really are ruining my rabble rousing Doug.

I like Kurt Spitzner, but I've always known him as someone who's helped us in Colorado out and he does an amazing job in his position with Rally Colorado.

There's no sense for Subaru to have anyone either than Travis or Ken! Well, Ken was questionable up until the gymnastic videos did so well. Now his popularity may even be greater than Travis' in the four wheeled crowd.

I don't want to see international drivers in NA championships personally. I want to see people like Matthew Johnson, ACP, and others getting competitive and paid rides. And I'd like to see a program that helps get our top driver's to international competitiveness and marketability. And puts them out racing internationally, but the ROI is always difficult so rally has to be built here first.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, you're saying that the sudden increase in
> minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th had nothing
> to do with the possibility of a competitive Open
> Class Ford Fiesta that could easily achieve that
> minimum weight and thus have similar power but 700
> lbs less weight than the Subaru had nothing to do
> with the decision and implementation of this rule?

Y'know, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but, c'mon, at least get the facts right before putting it out there.

Right now, there is a 2700 lbs minimum weight for most Open class cars. Next year, that increases to 2900 lbs, a 200 lbs increase.

Sure, Iorio's car had to be ballasted up the current minimum weight, but he last ran a couple of years ago and how many nationally competitive GC8s do you see now.

I wrote the words that are in the Bulletin and, at the time, I had no idea Ford was contemplating bringing the Fiesta over.

alan

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I mean it is common for CANADIANS to place in the top 5 in
> our national series. CANADIANS. I don't know
> about you but I have tough time with that.

Yah - what would a nation that, for the most part, drives on ice and snow for 8 months of the year know about racing on loose surfaces.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoCoast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So, you're saying that the sudden increase
> in
> > minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th had
> nothing
> > to do with the possibility of a competitive
> Open
> > Class Ford Fiesta that could easily achieve
> that
> > minimum weight and thus have similar power
> but 700
> > lbs less weight than the Subaru had nothing
> to do
> > with the decision and implementation of this
> rule?
>
> Y'know, I love a good conspiracy theory as much as
> the next person, but, c'mon, at least get the
> facts right before putting it out there.
>
> Right now, there is a 2700 lbs minimum weight for
> most Open class cars. Next year, that increases
> to 2900 lbs, a 200 lbs increase.
>
> Sure, Iorio's car had to be ballasted up the
> current minimum weight, but he last ran a couple
> of years ago and how many nationally competitive
> GC8s do you see now.
>
> I wrote the words that are in the Bulletin and, at
> the time, I had no idea Ford was contemplating
> bringing the Fiesta over.
>
> alan
>


Has FIA upped their minimum weight from the 1230 or 1250 kg it has been?

I thought they were the be all and end all and litigation proof cause they are arguable in court to be the example of "best practices"?

And rather than acting coy, why not tell us why since you have to know.
Why the increase to 2900 Lbs?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> tipo158 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > NoCoast Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > So, you're saying that the sudden
> increase
> > in
> > > minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th
> had
> > nothing
> > > to do with the possibility of a
> competitive
> > Open
> > > Class Ford Fiesta that could easily
> achieve
> > that
> > > minimum weight and thus have similar
> power
> > but 700
> > > lbs less weight than the Subaru had
> nothing
> > to do
> > > with the decision and implementation of
> this
> > rule?
> >
> > Y'know, I love a good conspiracy theory as
> much as
> > the next person, but, c'mon, at least get
> the
> > facts right before putting it out there.
> >
> > Right now, there is a 2700 lbs minimum weight
> for
> > most Open class cars. Next year, that
> increases
> > to 2900 lbs, a 200 lbs increase.
> >
> > Sure, Iorio's car had to be ballasted up the
> > current minimum weight, but he last ran a
> couple
> > of years ago and how many nationally
> competitive
> > GC8s do you see now.
> >
> > I wrote the words that are in the Bulletin
> and, at
> > the time, I had no idea Ford was
> contemplating
> > bringing the Fiesta over.
> >
> > alan
> >
>
>
> Has FIA upped their minimum weight from the 1230
> or 1250 kg it has been?
>
> I thought they were the be all and end all and
> litigation proof cause they are arguable in court
> to be the example of "best practices"?
>
> And rather than acting coy, why not tell us why
> since you have to know.
> Why the increase to 2900 Lbs?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be coy. The reason is in the Bulletin.
In the rationale section, it says:

"This change is being made to discourage unsafe lightening of rally vehicles that
are based on newer, heavier chassis designs as well as discourage the expense of
efforts to make rally vehicles very light."

We were thinking about the cars that were likely to run in National Open class (primarily GD and GH/GR Imprezas and Evo IXs and Xs) and were concerned about what someone might do to get the weight down to 2700 lbs. Look at the minimum weights for those cars in SP and no one running these cars have been over the minimum weight AFAIK. To get those cars down to 2700 lbs, you either have to do something unsafe or spend a lot of money and we wanted to discourage that.

So, as far as FIA minimum weights and following best practices to avoid litigation and all that, this is just another area where RA is different from FIA. It isn't the first.

alan

tipo158 Wrote:
-
> Sorry, I wasn't trying to be coy. The reason is
> in the Bulletin.
> In the rationale section, it says:
>
> "This change is being made to discourage unsafe
> lightening of rally vehicles that
> are based on newer, heavier chassis designs as
> well as discourage the expense of
> efforts to make rally vehicles very light."
>
> We were thinking about the cars that were likely
> to run in National Open class (primarily GD and
> GH/GR Imprezas and Evo IXs and Xs) and were
> concerned about what someone might do to get the
> weight down to 2700 lbs. Look at the minimum
> weights for those cars in SP and no one running
> these cars have been over the minimum weight
> AFAIK. To get those cars down to 2700 lbs, you
> either have to do something unsafe or spend a lot
> of money and we wanted to discourage that.
>
> So, as far as FIA minimum weights and following
> best practices to avoid litigation and all that,
> this is just another area where RA is different
> from FIA. It isn't the first.
>
> alan

Oh my god.
That's almost funny.
Somebody is worried about the cost and the whatever??
Where was the concern with SWRTUSA swapping in engines daily?

Or driving huge semis and motorhomes?

Or having a platoon of mechanics?

Alan I understand---or "as I understand it"---you're just the codifier, right?
You draft the things you're commanded to, am I correct?
Tell me you don't take part in the cooking up of this sort of hooooey.

Pretty odd FIA BEST PRACTICES FIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICES,
then on a whim BAM! add a shit-ton of weight.

Truly bizarre.

>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh my god.
> That's almost funny.
> Somebody is worried about the cost and the whatever??
> Where was the concern with SWRTUSA swapping in engines daily?
>
> Or driving huge semis and motorhomes?
>
> Or having a platoon of mechanics?

For every person who thinks that it isn't fair that SRTUSA has a bunch of mechanics and can do nightly engine swaps, there is someone else who thinks it cool to watch a team change an engine that quickly.

Every time the idea comes up to limit the number of people who can work on the rally car during the rally, some grassroots guy comes up and says that he should not be penalized just because he has lots of friends who are willing to work on his car.

But your point is cost control, right? This has been talked to death in other threads in other forums. Do you really want to go down that rathole again?

> Alan I understand---or "as I understand
> it"---you're just the codifier, right?
> You draft the things you're commanded to, am I correct?
> Tell me you don't take part in the cooking up of
> this sort of hooooey.

I am the codifier, but I do more than that. Obviously, the technical and safety rule changes come primarily through the Tech Director, Hurst. But they come from others as well, including me.

> Pretty odd FIA BEST PRACTICES FIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST
> PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA BEST PRACTICESFIA
> BEST PRACTICES,
> then on a whim BAM! add a shit-ton of weight.

Actually, it wasn't on a whim. We added the allowance for lighter, small displacement cars (<= 1.6l turbo cars can be 2600 lbs) in 2005 or 2006. SP cars have had minimum weights since the class was introduced.

I did not introduce the idea, but I liked the proposal when I got it. I had had some discussions with different people concerning minimum weight for SP cars and I had also seen some of the stuff people were removing from their cars to make them lighter and that got me thinking about how light is too light for rally.

As far as "BEST PRACTICESFIA", RA doesn't always go FIA. We allow SFI head & neck restraints, helmets and roll cage padding. We make an allowance for DOM in roll cages.

However, some stuff have to be made up here. For the most part, homologated cars are not sold in the US, so the FIA homologated classes don't work here. We have to make up our own class rules.

Hey, when are you around your shop? I stopped by to see you one day and no one was home.

alan

If the concern is about newer heavier cars being unsafe while trying to acheive the minimun weight then the rule should be written such that it ONLY APPLIES to the newer heavier cars and not the poor saps who already have older cars nearer the minimum weight...Surely Iorio's old cars & Schmidts car are close to 2700lbs or under without balast.

---

____________________________________________________________-

One. Class -- 2WD

www.quantumrallysport.com

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Quantum-Rally-Sport/281129179600?ref=nf

> >
> > Has FIA upped their minimum weight from the
> 1230
> > or 1250 kg it has been?
> >
> > I thought they were the be all and end all
> and
> > litigation proof cause they are arguable in
> court
> > to be the example of "best practices"?
> >
> > And rather than acting coy, why not tell us
> why
> > since you have to know.
> > Why the increase to 2900 Lbs?
>
> Sorry, I wasn't trying to be coy. The reason is
> in the Bulletin.
> In the rationale section, it says:
>
> "This change is being made to discourage unsafe
> lightening of rally vehicles that
> are based on newer, heavier chassis designs as
> well as discourage the expense of
> efforts to make rally vehicles very light."
>
> We were thinking about the cars that were likely
> to run in National Open class (primarily GD and
> GH/GR Imprezas and Evo IXs and Xs) and were
> concerned about what someone might do to get the
> weight down to 2700 lbs. Look at the minimum
> weights for those cars in SP and no one running
> these cars have been over the minimum weight
> AFAIK. To get those cars down to 2700 lbs, you
> either have to do something unsafe or spend a lot
> of money and we wanted to discourage that.
>
> So, as far as FIA minimum weights and following
> best practices to avoid litigation and all that,
> this is just another area where RA is different
> from FIA. It isn't the first.
>
> alan
>


Alan, you can't be serious. WTF?? This is the patently ridiculous. The lamest reasoning I have ever heard. (OK, being a little melodramatic, but still...) It is not difficult at all to get a GC Subaru down to 2700lbs. No having to do anything "unsafe." Later model Subies? Yeah, a bit more difficult, you're probably just not gonna get there. No rule needed. Is anyone actually doing anything "unsafe" to get their cars down to minimum weight? Seems like that is something that could be handled on a case by case basis. Isn't that what tech inspectors and log book inspections are for, to make sure the cars are built safely? Oh yeah, it's not really about that, the rules are there just to make sure RA doesn't get sued. It's apparent you guys sit around thinking up all the possible ways you might get sued and write rules to try to protect against it.
People, this has nothing to do with with preventing one type of car or allowing one type of car to have a competitive advantage and has everything to do with what I just wrote above.

By the way, I've seen the top secret RA 5 year plan and by 2012 drivers won't be allowed in the cars at all, all cars will be driven by remote control. Everyone dust off you're old R/C car radios! By 2014 cars will be banned from the Rally America championship entirely. To compete in an event you just send in your entry form and fees and three days later RA will post the results on their website. Think of how much money you will save travelling!

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, I've seen the top secret RA 5 year
> plan and by 2012 drivers won't be allowed in the
> cars at all, all cars will be driven by remote
> control. Everyone dust off you're old R/C car
> radios! By 2014 cars will be banned from the
> Rally America championship entirely. To compete
> in an event you just send in your entry form and
> fees and three days later RA will post the results
> on their website. Think of how much money you
> will save travelling!

Heehee. I bet the amount of video coverage coming out of RA events will increase by 2014! Sure it may all be animated, but okay...
The official photographers may finally turn a profit because they can make all their photos from their home office instead of having to spend a bunch of money to go stand around in the forest all day!

---

Grant Hughes