1999 SCCA Performance Rally "Vision Guide"

Anders Green Wrote:
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> My GC subaru with a H6 3.0 swapped in, with stock
> tranny, all stock bumper beams front and rear, and
> AIR CONDITIONING for chisakes, and a full tank of
> gas was 2820 on the scales.
>
>

The 1998 2.5 RS Open class car I originally built in 1998 for Rey Mendez and Pat Richard bought in 2001 weighed 2650 with the stock motor and full rally trim and spare tire. After we swapped in the turbo engine I'm sure it was closer to around 2700 but we never weighed it then. No hacking out of structural areas or anything like that but it did have kevlar skidplates and underbody protection and light seats, etc. But big brakes and the big 60mm DMS struts. So not that tough to do safely.

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anders Green Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My GC subaru with a H6 3.0 swapped in, with
> stock
> > tranny, all stock bumper beams front and
> rear, and
> > AIR CONDITIONING for chisakes, and a full
> tank of
> > gas was 2820 on the scales.
> >
> >
>
> The 1998 2.5 RS Open class car I originally built
> in 1998 for Rey Mendez and Pat Richard bought in
> 2001 weighed 2650 with the stock motor and full
> rally trim and spare tire. After we swapped in
> the turbo engine I'm sure it was closer to around
> 2700 but we never weighed it then. No hacking out
> of structural areas or anything like that but it
> did have kevlar skidplates and underbody
> protection and light seats, etc. But big brakes
> and the big 60mm DMS struts. So not that tough to
> do safely.

At some point we're talking about weights on different scales. Kind of like the dyno tales. Remember a couple years ago when the famous Derrick Nelson Civic was so under weight it was enterd in Oregon Trail as a G5 car. I watched Hurst weigh it and it was at least noticably over the RA minimum for G2. I've yet to see a close call on G2, PGT/SP or Open at any of the events out here on RA scales.

heymagic Wrote:
> At some point we're talking about weights on
> different scales. Kind of like the dyno tales.
> Remember a couple years ago when the famous
> Derrick Nelson Civic was so under weight it was
> enterd in Oregon Trail as a G5 car. I watched
> Hurst weigh it and it was at least noticably over
> the RA minimum for G2. I've yet to see a close
> call on G2, PGT/SP or Open at any of the events
> out here on RA scales.

Weight is weight and doesn't undergo "adjustment factors" like HP does. Modern racecar scales should be within a couple pounds of standard or they are worthless.

Andrew or someone was sold a bill of goods with that 1800lb line. Or maybe they had other reasons to run it in G5. Whatever.

---

Lurch
Eric Burmeister
The west coast...of Michigan

It was kinda funny last night we were riding bikes downtown for the weekly Cruiser ride, 500+ or so drunken crazys riding around downtown all night. So Mark and I stopped and picked up a 30 pack on the way and loaded them into Mark's backpack. There's a big hill coming into downtown and I reminded Mark that with the extra weight he'd need to make sure that he accounted for the extra braking distance he'd need. He laughed and referenced the weight rule and how heavier doesn't always equal safer.

---

Grant Hughes

As far as subarus. 2004-2007 STIs were in the 3350 range. A guy on one of the forums got his car to something like 2800 with driver if I remember.

Actually, here's the thread:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-members-journals/65805-anorexicsti-05-sti-lightweight-w-full-interior-2660lbs-62-lbs-2598-a.html

The guy is at 2660 lbs with full interior. Now, compared to a rally car you gotta add weight for heavier wheels + skid plates and spare tools but you COULD get a GD chassis to the current 2700 weight if you wanted.

BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as subarus. 2004-2007 STIs were in the
> 3350 range. A guy on one of the forums got his
> car to something like 2800 with driver if I
> remember.
>
> Actually, here's the thread:
>
>
> The guy is at 2660 lbs with full interior. Now,
> compared to a rally car you gotta add weight for
> heavier wheels + skid plates and spare tools but
> you COULD get a GD chassis to the current 2700
> weight if you wanted.

Actually, no you couldn't. By the time you add in cage, skidplates, rally tires and wheels and required rally gear to this guys car you'd be closer to 3000 lbs. And you'd probably DNF almost every rally.

---

Grant Hughes

Lurch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> > At some point we're talking about weights on
> > different scales. Kind of like the dyno
> tales.
> > Remember a couple years ago when the famous
> > Derrick Nelson Civic was so under weight it
> was
> > enterd in Oregon Trail as a G5 car. I
> watched
> > Hurst weigh it and it was at least noticably
> over
> > the RA minimum for G2. I've yet to see a
> close
> > call on G2, PGT/SP or Open at any of the
> events
> > out here on RA scales.
>
> Weight is weight and doesn't undergo "adjustment
> factors" like HP does. Modern racecar scales
> should be within a couple pounds of standard or
> they are worthless.
>
> Andrew or someone was sold a bill of goods with
> that 1800lb line. Or maybe they had other reasons
> to run it in G5. Whatever.
>
>
> Lurch
> Eric Burmeister
> The west coast...of Michigan

So most modern scales should be about the same ? Do they ever get out of calibration? Is there a calibration procedure or check? I've not much scale experience, except the bathroom scales which lie all the time...

heymagic Wrote:

> So most modern scales should be about the same ?
> Do they ever get out of calibration? Is there a
> calibration procedure or check? I've not much
> scale experience, except the bathroom scales which
> lie all the time...
>

All modern scales use a load cell. Essentially two or four strain gauges mounted at 90deg to each other on a deformable "beam". Then a subtracting Wheatstone bridge to extract only the "weight" force from the strain readings. Yes, they can start already or become out of calibration because they are reading very small changes in resistivity. I wouldn't expect to see more than +/- 20lb overall between new sets of scales though.

You do have me wondering...maybe I should check mine.

-Tim

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lurch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heymagic Wrote:
> > > At some point we're talking about
> weights on
> > > different scales. Kind of like the dyno
> > tales.
> > > Remember a couple years ago when the
> famous
> > > Derrick Nelson Civic was so under weight
> it
> > was
> > > enterd in Oregon Trail as a G5 car. I
> > watched
> > > Hurst weigh it and it was at least
> noticably
> > over
> > > the RA minimum for G2. I've yet to see
> a
> > close
> > > call on G2, PGT/SP or Open at any of
> the
> > events
> > > out here on RA scales.
> >
> > Weight is weight and doesn't undergo
> "adjustment
> > factors" like HP does. Modern racecar
> scales
> > should be within a couple pounds of standard
> or
> > they are worthless.
> >
> > Andrew or someone was sold a bill of goods
> with
> > that 1800lb line. Or maybe they had other
> reasons
> > to run it in G5. Whatever.
> >
> >
> > Lurch
> > Eric Burmeister
> > The west coast...of Michigan
>
> So most modern scales should be about the same ?
> Do they ever get out of calibration? Is there a
> calibration procedure or check? I've not much
> scale experience, except the bathroom scales which
> lie all the time...
>
>

Pat's Open car that I mentioned above (actually it was still Rey Mendez' car at the time) was weighed on a new fancy set of Longacre scales, so presumably pretty accurate. Yes, you can have discrepencies between different scales but like Lurch said, you're usually only talking a couple pounds, not like 100 or even 50. We have to deal with this in pro racing because we have our own set of scales in the paddock for setup but everything is officially weighed at the SCCA or IMSA truck or whatever.
The scale pads are pretty solid state and don't get messed up from normal use and stowage, etc, but it's probably a good idea not to drop them! Since there are 4 pads it's pretty easy to cross check and see if one is off compared to the others. They can be sent back to the manufacturer to be calibrated.

As far as the Honda in G5, that's just Andrew Havas' style. He wanted to beat Cary Kendall in G5 with a G2 car, I remember they had quite a rivalry going on there.

Yeah good point there. But I still think their point was somewhat valid that you "could" go into extreme measures to get to the minimum weight. However, you don't see anyone doing it now.

But it does "screw" an open class fiesta or really anything else that would be slapping a AWD drivetrain into a FWD chassis. But as others have said, people would then complain that the fiesta is the car that nobody can beat and we'd be back in the same spot we are with SRTUSA and their gobs of money.

I'd rather see the Fiesta come in and kick some SRTUSA butt in a fair playing field, rather than having a weight advantage IMO.

BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah good point there. But I still think their
> point was somewhat valid that you "could" go into
> extreme measures to get to the minimum weight.
> However, you don't see anyone doing it now.
>
> But it does "screw" an open class fiesta or really
> anything else that would be slapping a AWD
> drivetrain into a FWD chassis. But as others have
> said, people would then complain that the fiesta
> is the car that nobody can beat and we'd be back
> in the same spot we are with SRTUSA and their gobs
> of money.
>
> I'd rather see the Fiesta come in and kick some
> SRTUSA butt in a fair playing field, rather than
> having a weight advantage IMO.

so with a hypothetical "the fiesta may end up beating a new subaru" everyone else has to add more weight? this includes regional competitors!

that makes no sense. is there any firm data suggesting or showing that the fiesta will even beat the subaru?

it's an ill conceived bulletin that works in a hypothetical realm and has across the board ramifications....

---

-Mark
www.nocoastmotorsports.net

Mark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> that makes no sense. is there any firm data
> suggesting or showing that the fiesta will even
> beat the subaru?
>

Or even competing in anything other than x-games?

Mark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> so with a hypothetical "the fiesta may end up
> beating a new subaru" everyone else has to add
> more weight? this includes regional competitors!
>
> that makes no sense. is there any firm data
> suggesting or showing that the fiesta will even
> beat the subaru?
>
> it's an ill conceived bulletin that works in a
> hypothetical realm and has across the board
> ramifications....

Sorta like the "Don't call, don't tell" Cell Phone Policy where you can never ever call anybody from the moment you sign the waiver till the next time you DNF, which could be months or even years!
Madre dios!
>
> -Mark
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> www.coloradorallycup.org

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I think after x-games we might see something because why break/crash the car before x-games? But in 2010 when they ramp up the hype for the new fiesta I think we'll see one on stages. Still talking what I think and nothing definite. Unless Ford just wants to spend gobs of money on one event, considering they aren't swimming in it like they used to.

But on topic, I think all this hype is over nothing. There are good and bad for adding ballast. Fiestas (if they run and need balast) will probably put that weight in the rear for a more neutral 50/50 weight distribution while any other "fat car" won't have that luxury.

>
> I guess the best example is this years DooWops VS.
> Olympus. The massive number of spectators on
> Brooklyn and Taholah for Olympus over the
> traditional number on DW. There was an easy 3 or 4
> times as many people, maybe more.
>

Seems to me Doo Wops had snow, geez that had no effect on spectating, sorry it took so long for a response but I had to wait for the flies to stop swarming!

This logic implies there was no other reason but the "big boys for the turn out, and that is plain flawed logic!


> A strong national program with 20 well funded
> teams will bring excitement, spectators and
> sponsors. It will energize volunteers and
> organizers. It will put more money in local club
> pockets. Economic impact means those roads may
> just stay open a couple years longer. As fun as
> Lane and Burress are to watch for us, they simply
> don't bring out the crowds that Travis , Block and
> Tanner do. More crowds= more Tshirts sold, more
> hot dogs sold, more tickets at Oregon raceway
> sold. Happy organizers and volunteers make for
> good rally.
>
> Sure the local guys like to think they are all
> that, but just maybe the workers and spectators
> like to see the big dawgs too. Think about the
> couple hundred people involved behind the scenes.
>
> Trickle down doesn't mean the Travis is going to
> come in and pay for Robert Gobright to buy an
> Escort or pick up the tab for Lanes tires. The
> trickle down may be more subtle, such as reduced
> or stable entry fees, maybe more events, maybe
> more local competitors, maybe easier road use
> permissions, maybe a local series sponsor, maybe
> many won't see a direct effect. There will be an
> effect though.

Didn't Olympus use Doo Wops roads ... Kind makes the "easier road use" argument void doesn't it?

Maybe only the organizers will see
> financial improvement, maybe the volunteers will
> see more perks. People have been spending their
> time and money to put on rallies for 20-30 years,
> maybe they will be the ones to see a benefit, is
> that so bad? Currently organizers would be better
> off financially working part time at McDonalds.
> Way more money, way less hours. Communities would
> be better off if the rally volunteers painted old
> people houses, helped at parks and schools or a
> myriad of other needed social services. People
> get excited when the big show comes to town. You
> ought to see the parking disappear when the World
> of Outlaws comes to visit my town. Maybe that is
> the trickle down. Maybe we won't have to cancel
> stages due to lack of workers, or threaten to
> cancel rallies due to lack of entries. Maybe
> trickle down isn't just about the competitors. I
> don't know.

The problem over the years has been that local events have been tossed to the back burner in favor of the National events, which contrary to statements here do burn out workers, uses up their time and money.

>
> I do know my first event was Olympus 1983 and a
> national. I had a ball. People were everywhere on
> stage, in service, everywhere. I survived for
> several years competing at nationals until the
> divisional program was implemented by the same
> horrendous, evil group that has their logo on
> "ThePlan". I never felt slighted or jealous that
> Buffum, Millen, Woodner, Henderson, Eatons and a
> few others were in town.
>
> As long as the regional guys have a venue to
> compete in then what exactly is wrong with a top
> tier national program?
>
>

Nothing, as long as the top tier is not the priority over the locals that are and have been the bread and butter of the sport. Look at WRC and see how this top tier idea has for many events killed off entries compared to the not so distant past.

If one runs a small neighborhood business and disregards the locals for the circus that shows up once a year how long before his business is gone? The smart business person takes care of his customers and welcomes the circus as a bonus, but would be a fool to think the business would survive all year because for one weekend a year there are customers ...

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T