Heavy shit for a Saturday morning! I only have one cup of tea in me so far but here goes.....I don't have any problem with big budget teams in rally. The two concerns that I have are:

1) The appearance of preferential treatment for those big teams. I can't prove anything but it doesn't look good.

2) It bothers me that there is an implied competition between Pastrana and Wimpey for example. The only competition is economic. If the two teams were in equal situations, whether it be WRC C4s or Saab 96s there would be real competition.

From this perspective I support the two series model. BUT ONLY IF the events run side by side and the top tier series supports the entry level group.

I must be a commie!

Disclaimer: If I had the dough I would go to England and buy a Ford WRC set-up lock stock and barrel. I would then come over here and enter every event in Canada, the US and Mexico.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RallyTaco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I get that and I also get that the US could
> have
> > both a National whoopty doo circuit and
> strong
> > regional rallies but still that's a helluva
> > sentence. Makes me feel icky.
>
>
> That doesnt make any sense... Why do you feel
> "icky?" Are you afraid of national circuits? Why
> is it a "whoopty doo" circuit?
>
> Whats wrong with people wanting to travel across
> the country and race in different styles of
> forest/areas?
>

In the abstract I guess it would be great have a National series as popular as across the pond. But it's the how do you get there part and the realization (for me) I'm not really interested in the National series the way things are. It really seems too big a nut to crack and just won't work as a bunch of linear events you have to travel constantly to get to. As a MaxAttack like series of fewer events with more people showing up at each event maybe.


Also I haven't had the burning urge to attend a rally lately except for WV last year and Idaho this year, both due to MaxAttack bringing a variety of cars driven fast. I'm not a Block and Pastrana hater but they alone won't get me out to a rally. So I would be all for WRC stages with spectating everywhere but that doesn't seem to be likely to happen. Bigger National series will mean more people corralled into designated areas or super specials which does not interest me. Now that's OK to a point since rally shouldn't be structured around the spectators but since I won't be one of the $300k drivers either it kinda dulls my interest for a National series from both ends.


As far as the icky part it's a double edge sword. Bigger National series mean more and better rally? Maybe. But the bigger and more corporate it gets and the more $300,000 drivers there are could also destroy a big part of what makes people relate to rally in the first place. I'm not all doom and gloom about it like Jens but it does lower my interest when I think about some aspects of it. It's also depressing because I will never make $3ook but more depressing because there are a bunch of really talented drivers who will never make that either. I'm not saying having more money being spent on the cars is evil but it should come from sponsors or something not by hoping the driving field gets filled by those with fat bank accounts.


The whoopty doo comment was a dig on the argument that "if you build it they will come" and rally will be saved. To be fair I think there is a decent "chicken or the egg" argument over whether building a national series helps regional rallies or vice versa. I lean towards building regional rally first but I don't think it's the only way. The argument just seems lopsided for the other way a lot and I get a little frustrated is all.


My .02 RA should morph to become the championship overlay series with all the bling and pomp and circumstance and just switch up which events run by the other rally organizations they will nominate as championship events and pump big money from corporations into them that way. Then you could have a highly attended MaxAttack-like series that you don't have to tow all over the universe to win. RA could focus on getting money by creating the marketable series and NASA and the like could focus on putting on more rallies buoyed by the influx of money and interest from the bigger championship events. This could also provide the impetus to kill off all the competing rulesets and competition licenses.

---

Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2009 01:55PM by RallyTaco.

John the 'Dark Lord;' Kurt (Der) Spritzner is said to 'have had the chops to do what he had to do as our 'Benevolant Dictator.'

That sure worked out real well.

I really do want to get out there and play.... Mix it up with Burress, Holmes, Uchect and the like.

Help me with just why it is that we simply must do this with Major manufacturer support that does not trickle down?

It is not as though all the local boyz are running unburstable transmissions in their Subarus for Subaru being involved.

I'd sure like to trick someone at Volvo into supporting my efforts with the Volvo.
I'll be sure to cast off my slightly used bits for others!

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John the 'Dark Lord;' Kurt (Der) Spritzner is
> said to 'have had the chops to do what he had to
> do as our 'Benevolant Dictator.'
>
> That sure worked out real well.
>
> I really do want to get out there and play.... Mix
> it up with Burress, Holmes, Uchect and the like.
>
> Help me with just why it is that we simply must do
> this with Major manufacturer support that does not
> trickle down?
>
> It is not as though all the local boyz are running
> unburstable transmissions in their Subarus for
> Subaru being involved.
>
> I'd sure like to trick someone at Volvo into
> supporting my efforts with the Volvo.
> I'll be sure to cast off my slightly used bits for
> others!
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun

I guess the best example is this years DooWops VS. Olympus. The massive number of spectators on Brooklyn and Taholah for Olympus over the traditional number on DW. There was an easy 3 or 4 times as many people, maybe more.

A strong national program with 20 well funded teams will bring excitement, spectators and sponsors. It will energize volunteers and organizers. It will put more money in local club pockets. Economic impact means those roads may just stay open a couple years longer. As fun as Lane and Burress are to watch for us, they simply don't bring out the crowds that Travis , Block and Tanner do. More crowds= more Tshirts sold, more hot dogs sold, more tickets at Oregon raceway sold. Happy organizers and volunteers make for good rally.

Sure the local guys like to think they are all that, but just maybe the workers and spectators like to see the big dawgs too. Think about the couple hundred people involved behind the scenes.

Trickle down doesn't mean the Travis is going to come in and pay for Robert Gobright to buy an Escort or pick up the tab for Lanes tires. The trickle down may be more subtle, such as reduced or stable entry fees, maybe more events, maybe more local competitors, maybe easier road use permissions, maybe a local series sponsor, maybe many won't see a direct effect. There will be an effect though. Maybe only the organizers will see financial improvement, maybe the volunteers will see more perks. People have been spending their time and money to put on rallies for 20-30 years, maybe they will be the ones to see a benefit, is that so bad? Currently organizers would be better off financially working part time at McDonalds. Way more money, way less hours. Communities would be better off if the rally volunteers painted old people houses, helped at parks and schools or a myriad of other needed social services. People get excited when the big show comes to town. You ought to see the parking disappear when the World of Outlaws comes to visit my town. Maybe that is the trickle down. Maybe we won't have to cancel stages due to lack of workers, or threaten to cancel rallies due to lack of entries. Maybe trickle down isn't just about the competitors. I don't know.

I do know my first event was Olympus 1983 and a national. I had a ball. People were everywhere on stage, in service, everywhere. I survived for several years competing at nationals until the divisional program was implemented by the same horrendous, evil group that has their logo on "ThePlan". I never felt slighted or jealous that Buffum, Millen, Woodner, Henderson, Eatons and a few others were in town.

As long as the regional guys have a venue to compete in then what exactly is wrong with a top tier national program?

"As long as the regional guys have a venue to compete in then what exactly is wrong with a top tier national program?"


Absolutely nothin'!
I can't tell you how pissed off I was to miss Olympus this goround. I kinda figure it had to be "Doowop II: The Michael Bay Blow-Em-Up Actionarama Superlicious Sequel" and from what I've heard, this wasn't all that far off.. yeah there's gonna be some silly byproducts, and nationals aren't as relaxed as the regionals are, but there hadta be more pop and spectacle, and more stage miles. As long as I can play in both events--@%$##ing car willing-- and NOT get the overt impression that as a regional entrant, I'm being treated as a localyokel whocares pissant, I'm good with it for sure. I *really* wanna see how much faster the big boys are than I am. Cuz if I can get in a stage on the same minute as them, with my total budget equaling what.. their catering outlay, I'll call that a victory.

---

Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

I don't want to waste more time thatn already has been wasted here---and elsewhere already.
A RALLY is fundementally different from other car competition not only in its format but in that it has always been far broader range of vehicles than any othe rform, basically except in limited condidtions a rally is a RALLY, a gathering.

There is no real or legitimate reason to exclude a given CAR.

More importantly when somebody makes up some cockimamie rule to exclude a CAR that you don't want looking all ugly (because it isn't NEW--not that the paint isn't up to some lame-ass show-car standards--which is further BS) you fuckin well end up EXCLUDING THE DRIVER.) YOU EXCLUDE THE DRIVER.

When somebody decide for everybody who shows up to see all the shiny Subarus that THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED to see the boxy Volvo 240---because its ooooh all old and stuff.----that somebody has decided ---in advance---that non of those spectators want to see the DRIVER DRIVING the car---regardless of how fast it is being driven
by the DRIVER.

That is FOLLY.

When the same Gang of Whoever who thought it smart to exclude in advance on whatever dubious grounds certain drivers then goes and fills the publicity and press and TV stuff with FATUOUS and EXAGGERATED references to whoever did whatever as THE BEST, and as SUPERSTARS---when we all know that there has ALWAYS been CORDS of DEADWOOD in the National and/or so/called "pro" side of things, and we know they havea priori eliminated stacks of people---any of who might be--and often in the past HAS BEEN MUCH FASTER the the "Pro" or "National", then the degree of re-writing history gets to be a bit much.

I have always maintained from my first event : Make DIRECT COMPARISONS EASY at a GLANCE between classes etc.

The guy in the WHATEVER wins the class or is second or so THEN SHOW SOME RESPECT TO THE GUY--or gal_-WHO DROVE THE CAR--whatever it was.

There has never been a need to artificially create a false story, the gravel surface--and once, the length of the event, the nature of the stages and the service opportunities created help shake out results-- and no need to exclude anybody (this does presumes some folks having the sense to not waste their money entering the "National", and admittedly that is a big presumption.)

Forcing people into only new cars just for a show begins a steep upwards spiral of all the costs from just the weight of new cars.
A bad and as we know from experience--unsustainable course.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't want to waste more time thatn already has
> been wasted here---and elsewhere already.
> A RALLY is fundementally different from other car
> competition not only in its format but in that it
> has always been far broader range of vehicles
> than any othe rform, basically except in limited
> condidtions a rally is a RALLY, a gathering.
>
> There is no real or legitimate reason to exclude a
> given CAR.
>
> More importantly when somebody makes up some
> cockimamie rule to exclude a CAR that you don't
> want looking all ugly (because it isn't NEW--not
> that the paint isn't up to some lame-ass show-car
> standards--which is further BS) you fuckin well
> end up EXCLUDING THE DRIVER.) YOU EXCLUDE THE
> DRIVER.
>
> When somebody decide for everybody who shows up to
> see all the shiny Subarus that THEY ARE NOT
> INTERESTED to see the boxy Volvo 240---because its
> ooooh all old and stuff.----that somebody has
> decided ---in advance---that non of those
> spectators want to see the DRIVER DRIVING the
> car---regardless of how fast it is being driven
> by the DRIVER.
>
> That is FOLLY.
>
> When the same Gang of Whoever who thought it smart
> to exclude in advance on whatever dubious grounds
> certain drivers then goes and fills the publicity
> and press and TV stuff with FATUOUS and
> EXAGGERATED references to whoever did whatever as
> THE BEST, and as SUPERSTARS---when we all know
> that there has ALWAYS been CORDS of DEADWOOD in
> the National and/or so/called "pro" side of
> things, and we know they havea priori eliminated
> stacks of people---any of who might be--and often
> in the past HAS BEEN MUCH FASTER the the "Pro" or
> "National", then the degree of re-writing history
> gets to be a bit much.
>
> I have always maintained from my first event :
> Make DIRECT COMPARISONS EASY at a GLANCE between
> classes etc.
>
> The guy in the WHATEVER wins the class or is
> second or so THEN SHOW SOME RESPECT TO THE GUY--or
> gal_-WHO DROVE THE CAR--whatever it was.
>
> There has never been a need to artificially create
> a false story, the gravel surface--and once, the
> length of the event, the nature of the stages and
> the service opportunities created help shake out
> results-- and no need to exclude anybody (this
> does presumes some folks having the sense to not
> waste their money entering the "National", and
> admittedly that is a big presumption.)
>
> Forcing people into only new cars just for a show
> begins a steep upwards spiral of all the costs
> from just the weight of new cars.
> A bad and as we know from
> experience--unsustainable course.
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.jvab.f4.ca


You're basically make statements on someones behalf that haven't been proven true. The difference in spectators alone show that people come to see the 'show" in huge droves. I can't see how you don't get that. RA cuts the regional guys more slack than SCCA did, but there is nothing wrong with asking people to have the cars look presentable. No one ever said show quality and no one was ever excluded because they showed up with a wrecking yard fender. There currently is one car running with parts off of 3 cars and mis-matched paint. Been like that for a couple years. Drives me crazy, take a little pride, it doesn't cost that much to paint a car.

No one ever excluded regional cars from an event. The Plan seems to me to add another level of competition on the top. If you want to compete on that level you have to meet those standards, seems fair. If those standards aren't met you can still run as always. Not so hard to understand. SCCA roadrace as well as NASCAR and many local tracks all have class rules, many of which are based on the age of the shell, yet there is room for everyone.

Mark Bowers just announced the cancelation of RallWV on SS. That is a gut wrenching decision for an organizer. That is where the big show comes in and amazingly trickles down. Don't look 10 feet in front of the car, look down the road aways...

This focus on the National level is crap, if I may say so myself. If more would focus internationally they would see how truly poor our national "pros" are. And this national level of mediocrity would also seem to be a pretty good reason to isolate the pro from the club cars because it certainly can't look good for the money men when a unheard of kid in say a golf or a crx shows up and competes for top times of the day. If we had truly talented pros here that wouldn't happen. It would be like Joe Baseballplayer taking 2nd or 3rd at the home run derby this past all star game.

I often find myself drawing parallels between american rally and soccer. Both international sports trying to find there place in the US. It would be great to see rally do something like the MLS. They have been able to bring some media attention their way by signing on great international stars in their waning years. These stars not only have a name that is known and marketable but they also posses that true raw talent that is unseen at our national levels.

If someone could put someone like Henning in a factory backed Fiesta I think he could really screw up the smoke screen that RA has been putting on at the National level. When I hear rumors of Tanner landing a ride with Ford's US rally efforts it makes me think that someone wearing blue and gold behind a RA desk won't let that happen. Just continue to stoke that 'merican's are no. 1 mentality.

What do I know, I'm just a rook.

---

Zap zap my ass...

Only 9 finishers at the National portion of NEFR, but the overall (including regional entries) field was up compared to the last 2 years, which surprised me.

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone could put someone like Henning in a
> factory backed Fiesta I think he could really
> screw up the smoke screen that RA has been putting
> on at the National level. When I hear rumors of
> Tanner landing a ride with Ford's US rally efforts
> it makes me think that someone wearing blue and
> gold behind a RA desk won't let that happen. Just
> continue to stoke that 'merican's are no. 1
> mentality.

Oh, please, tell me more about this RA smokescreen and how someone wearing blue and gold behind a RA desk makes decisions about who is and isn't allowed into the championship.

Is it Mike or JB? I know, it is Bob, right? I knew it.

alan perry
rally america rules committee

tipo158 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, please, tell me more about this RA smokescreen
> and how someone wearing blue and gold behind a RA
> desk makes decisions about who is and isn't
> allowed into the championship.

So, you're saying that the sudden increase in minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th had nothing to do with the possibility of a competitive Open Class Ford Fiesta that could easily achieve that minimum weight and thus have similar power but 700 lbs less weight than the Subaru had nothing to do with the decision and implementation of this rule? The given rationale is absolutely ridiculous and sounds like utter bullshit to me. Reducing costs for Open Class has never seemed to be high on the RA agenda.
Suppose you'll also convince us that the rumor'd redesign to this years X Games jump wasn't based upon testing with the latest model SRTUSA cars to ensure that they don't nose dive like they did in the past designs. AKA designing the course to a specific model.
I wouldn't say it's a smoke screen, but there sure are some questionable practices going on.
Hey, now that I read it again I also realize that #1 in this same bulletin could also apply to the Fiestas, which have the oil coolers and radiators located in the rear.

http://www.rally-america.com/RuleBulletin/Rule_Bulletin_2009_005.pdf
A mid year bulletin with some strange changes to be being made mid year don't you think. Also made right about the same time we started hearing rumors about Tanner in a Fiesta rally car... You guys weren't trying to scare away Ford now were you?

---

Grant Hughes

As stated I am a rook.

Just wondering why it is we don't see real "Pro Rally Drivers" pushed in our national series. We have seen the top US drivers perform internationally with very little success and yet the national series, and near the entirety of the media has been focused on cross-over stars. Could it be that RA is no longer focusing it's marketing on rally fans? If they just want larger crowds than I guess that is working I just wonder how long it will take for those crowds to become actual fans? How many will stick around after the x-stars are gone?

I have been trying to learn more of the money side of things and of making yourself marketable. To me it seems that someone with money would be interested in the prospect of success with an international driver in the states. Why isn't that happening? It is with co-drivers. Is there just not enough money here to attract that level of driver?

I'm sure someone on the rules committee would have worried many long hours over why we can not attract A-level drivers. Please share. I mean it is common for CANADIANS to place in the top 5 in our national series. CANADIANS. I don't know about you but I have tough time with that.

---

Zap zap my ass...

NoCoast Wrote:
> So, you're saying that the sudden increase in
> minimum weight by 300 lbs on Apr 28th had nothing

That is interesting, I hadn't noticed. Wouldn't a 2750 pound car lightened to 2700 pounds have pretty much the same amount of steel as a 2900 pound car lightened to 2700 pounds? Like, they would both have 2700 pounds of steel ('n' stuff), right? Not sure how they get less safe. (I haven't seen any details on what magic heavy pieces are being removed.)

Cheers,
Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

This might be inflated, but I heard the Fiestas have to add 800 lbs to meet the minimum weight for X games.

Pat, there have been international level drivers here in the past. David Higgins and Mark Lovell are the main ones that come to mind. They pretty much dominated. If I recall correctly, David Higgins and Lauchlin O'Sullivan made up the Mitsubishi team and Ramana Lageman and Mark Lovell made up the Subaru team. They did pretty much dominate and both Lauchlin and Ramana have won events recently even though they so seldomnly compete anymore. On a side note, I think many of the stage records set during those times have been broken by the current top guys, despite being on smaller restrictors now, but there have been other major improvements to the cars since then as well.

---

Grant Hughes

slidewayswrx Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I'm sure someone on the rules committee would have
> worried many long hours over why we can not
> attract A-level drivers. Please share. I mean it
> is common for CANADIANS to place in the top 5 in
> our national series. CANADIANS. I don't know
> about you but I have tough time with that.


And whats wrong with Canadians?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.