It's been a while. Let's look at some fun photos of what should be America's Escort
Posted by john vanlandingham
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John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
hoche Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Alright, this may be a stupid question, but bear > with me. > > What was it about the MkII Escort that made it so > great? I know Ford had huge successes with it in > the 70's, particularly with the Rothmann cars. > Since we can't (easily) get them here though, I > wonder how it stacks up against a 510, which we > CAN get. There are a number of things car-to-car which made it a much better car and which allowed the versions right from the MkIs thru the works MkIIs to work as top level cars right thru to the early 90s at the highest levels and at ALL levels, but without a doubt the single most important thing was the sheer amount of staged progressive INFORMATION, backed by MOUNTAINS of affordable parts that made the Escort so widely popular. In Japan they only really knew about maybe 3 rallies: Monte Carlo, Safari and RAC, and like the Japanese always DID, they trusted themselves to develop parts and expertise and of course this meant they were always too heavy, and not enough power, and not enough handling and steering. Mitsubishi and Toyota did the same but they hired absolute top level drivers, Andrew Cowan and Ove Anderson respectively, to set up and run their operations in Europe with Cowan in the Midlands and Anderson setting himself up, due to some favorable local government redevelopment money, in the outskirts of Frankfort (although the whole place was 98% filled with either Swedes or English designers, and mechanics---even into the mid-80s) The 510 or 1600SS or SSS was maybe 300lbs heavier than a Group 4 Escort. The Mercedes copy L series motor was hugely underpowered even in 2 liter form with works motors reported AT THE TIME as making barely 150 bhp. Contrast that with the much lighter Escort where bored 1600 Crossflows available to any clubman were routinely making about 160 bhp, and the designed one generation later Ford 2,0 SOHC was doing an easy 175bhp in those days and buckets more torque and you see even at the clubman level the Nissans were in deep doo-doo. When we consider than all the way back in '69 Ford sold the Escort with a 1600 DOHC BDA Cosworth that gave a reliable 210 bhp in rally trim you can see there were problems. And by 1975 with the arrival of the all alloy 2,0 BDG Cosworth, which tuned for rally was an honest 252 bhp you see there was a serious power deficit of 100 bhp.* And that's just power. There were several different quick racks in both LHD and RHD with choices of 2,2 or 2,5 tuns.** There were bigger stronger rear axles out of Capris with strong all steel ZF LSDs, and huge choices of axle ratios AFFORDABLY, gearkits available for all the gearboxes and alternative ZF boxes, there were cheap body reinforcing kits for just a few Pounds, bigger brakes, bigger radiators, and all MASS PRODUCED since FORD made all the information available--which generated so any builds. > > I've co-driven in a MkII, but didn't really get a > chance to inspect it. Seems like they have similar > layouts (macpherson front, leaf-sprung live-axle > rear) and similar wheelbases (2408mmm for the > Escort, 2421mm for the 510). > > It looks like by the time the MkII Escort came > out, The MkII as a rally car was just a continuation of the MkI and it was already nearly all conquoring. Datsun had stopped using the 510 and moved on > to the Z and the 710, so maybe they just stacked > up against each other with equivalently-backed > resources. However there still seems to be a big > following of the Escort in Europe and not so much > for the 510. It's got me wondering. There never was anywhere near the equivalent resources and couldn't be. Ford was sold and built worldwide and rallied everywhere, even in the USA. Buffum drove one way back in '75-76. The Zs were completely wrong and were very mildly put, vile handling POSs and I've spent a whole afternoon chatting and drinking tea with Tony Fall and talking about those days. It was wrong and everybody knew it but it was a corporate decision. Seems the Japanese hadn't noticed how little Minis and 850cc Saabs had destroyed the inline 6 3.0 works Healy and Mercedes sports cars 15-12 years before and they wasted time and suffered for it. But I maintain it is the huge amount of the enduring success stems from the availability of massive amounts of INFORMATION and parts. This is brought up in deatil in the book "Race and Rally Car Source Book" by Alan Staniforth which I've scanned 2 pages: 
On the second page about 3/4 the down see how it is stressed how vital the great book "Escort Rally Preparation" was to the last effect and popularity of the car. So thorough and detailed was this book that EVERYBODY, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Opel all essentially copied every detail on their works cars, and later hundreds of private Volvo drivers could transfer the specific techniques and procedures to those other cars. And that is why I call the 240 Volvo "what should be the Escort of US rally". It's chassi and motor is appropriately up-sized for North American rallys' faster, bigger, wider roads. And as we see the Escort is still driven about as fast as anything, so it stands to reason that a biiger, more powerful car, prepared similarly and driven with skill and vigor, would do likewise as well. *I am aware that Nissan began making a couple of different motors for their cars in the mid 70s which were "Not enough" and even did a motor which became eventually the FJ20 2,0 short stroke Nissan copy of BDG, and that grew into their last rwd car they rallied with the 240RS in 2,4 liter form. ** I know there were listed in Nissan Comp Japanese ctaloh I had in the early 80s faster ratio RHD steering boxes, but never anything for LHD cars, and 3.9 turns recirculating ball steering is did not and can not cut it even in low level endeavors. That was ALWAYS a problem with Japanese rwd cars. > > > > John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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Andrew_Frick Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > So maybe its the driving, but those pictures in no > way inspire me to own a volvo as a rally car. All > I see is un controlled over steer, lots of bent > suspension parts and body work. All it would take > is one rock in any of those ditches to end your > rally and/or destroy the car. > Really? I don't get that. These pictures don't make me think "Boy I would never want to rally a fwd all they are is is uncontrollable understeer/snap oversteer machines and if they hit a rock in the ditch their rally would be over". 
When I look at the pictures I see competition so tight billion MPH corner speeds/the tightest line is required and when they do a billion+1/a bit too tight they get it massively wrong and pictures of wrong tend to always look cooler than right. The pictures don't make me think ill of the cars.
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John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Andrew_Frick Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > > I am also interested in the answer to Michel > > question about what makes the MkII escort so > > popular over other similar rear wheel drive > > platforms. > > > First of all, they made a bazillion of them. So, > very popular and as a result a huge aftermarket. > Extremely well developed. And PROVEN development that can and was transferred to other cars like look at the Gp4 Ascona Bs rear axle set up, or the GpB Celica's rear axle. > > Second, if you have ever driven a well prepared > Mk1or2 Escort in anger you wouldn't be asking this > question. Fricking amazing handling for what > seems like an ordinary car. Will do whatever you > ask of it. > Sayz the guy with the car right between the Escort and the 240! (Escort 94" wheelbase, 240 104" w.b. and Ascona B is 99.1"  John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
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No. You are wrong John. What should have been America's Escort (and probably was in the alternate parallel rally universe) was the Chevette.
It is still not too late. Certainly there is no run on Chevette bodies in the US in comparison to old Escorts in the UK. And, most Chevettes fall outside the 25 year cash for clunkers trade in allowance (thank God for small blessings). It looks like a few million were made: http://www.geocities.com/shakeedogg/production.html "Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne "Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain |
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