And volvos aren't dumb looking?

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Volvo: boxy but good, built like a shick brithouse.
Chevette: looked like a POS brand new, at least stateside.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
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> And volvos aren't dumb looking?

Not really. Not compared to a Chevette, or even worse, a stock Merkur. I still almost puke in my mouth a bit everytime I see one. That was actually a plus to the Volvo that you didn't have to do as much to make them look not retarded. As long as you don't have the dual square headlights on the Volvo you're okay.
The Merkur you have to throw away the front bumper and grill, rear spoiler, and cut out those ugly fucking dual rear windows and then get the whale tail, lexan single big rear windows, Cossie grill and Cossie or Jetta front bumper and it looks cool.
The Chevette there's nothing you can do to make it look less retarded, except maybe crushing it.

I seemed to think there were a few really bad things about BMW E30's. I mean just from my very short looking over of the one that runs here in CO sometimes. At least there are some decent diffs and final drives for it and lots of engine options.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
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> Starlets are too rare in the states.
> Chevettes, there's 3 for sale here, $400-3500.
> They are really dumb looking. There's 31 Volvos.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


Grant, I always said you're were way smarter than you look and there is the crux you zeroed in on.
ANYTHING can be made to work.
But the rarity of virtually any old Japanese thing rwd, and the Chevette too is a major problem.
Even the rwd Corollas, virtually a Japanese Escort with a virtual BDA, are RARE.

They're rare cause 20 years ago when they hit the wreckers they pulled the rads for the copper and smooooshed 'em cause they were regarded as worthless.
The motors went chugging out crappy POS performance FOR EVAR, the horrid trannies all with massive holes tween 2nd and 3rd only broke if you drained the oil and THEN drove a couple of months so those items were not hot sellers, the cars were worth shit so body parts didn't get sold, so they smooooshed them.

The Volvo 240 was made '75 thru '92 , they last so NOW, today there's piles of them in for sale and piles in the "Rally Parts Storage Facilities" aka Junk Yards.

Further, the engines that come in them are stooooopid strong and stoooopid easy to make big Horse Powewrz and big TORQUE, tranny upgrades are an casual afternnon's work etc etc.

Sure the Xratty is a far better car, but we'll never reach the point the advantage is decisive.

Chevette, sure 20 years ago at the latest.
BMW, well a good 4 cylinder is hard to find and there's 1/10 the number of 3 series in the yard vs Volvo.

510s? TOO RARE, and STUPID SPENDY for sheetmetal and glass.

Remember the Finnish Starlet guy you posted his timeline from bad off to back on stages?
You can do that with a 240, can't with much else unless you stow away spare shells.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And volvos aren't dumb looking?
>
> Not really. At least there are some decent diffs
> and final drives for it and lots of engine
> options.

A hot normal apirated 2,0 on 62-64cm tires will want at least a 5.0:1 final drive.
No can find for BMW diff (sure there are others like uh Toyota Supra!!)
Fail.
>
>
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The thing about the Chevette is, even the Vauxhall version was extremely modified to work as a rally car. As in stretched wheelbase, big suspension mods, and let's not forget that Lotus derived twin cam engine. The HSR's like you pictured had very little in common with the pieces of crap that were sold in North America. Jut the name, really. Significantly different chassis.

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
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> Jut the name, really.
> Significantly different chassis.

Actually, you are wrong, and this a mistruth that has been repeated again and again. I've actually done the comparison.

You can strengthen the chassis (like an Escort needs too); four link (like an Escort needs too); put in tighter steering (like an Escort needs too); put in the readily available Bilstein shocks (like an Escort needs too); put in the readily available diff and ring and pinion (like an Escort needs too), and go rally.

One exception is the engine, but a number of 6 cylinder motors are an option with nice world class T5s attached.

The amount of prep needed to prep a fun, solid and competitive Escort is the same amount of prep needed to prep a fun, solid and competitive Chevette.

If I had the time and money, I'd do one. I've even got a set of those nice boxy first generation HSR flares.

The Volvo is an overweight pig compared to a 2000 or less pound Chevette.

---

"Talk about drugs. Driving a car like that, going that fast, it’s like all the drugs at once." - Tommy Byrne

"Now, Pinky, if by any chance you are captured during this mission, remember you are Gunther Heindriksen from Appenzell. You moved to Grindelwald to drive the cog train to Murren. Can you repeat that?" - The Brain



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2009 04:22PM by wvonkessler.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll add to the Datsun info, I rallied both old
> and "new" 510's , 1200 and the 210s. Not only was
> there a distinct lack of power, gear box ratios
> were less that desirable also. Hugh split between
> 2nd and 3rd. The old 510 suffered some bizarre
> rear suspension antics when rallied. They worked
> well when road raced, lowered and stiffened but
> rally was not so good.

This is funny, my experience is exactly the opposite. I've alwayas thought the PL510 rear suspension is twitchy and wierd when stiffened and road raced (the solution was just to stiffen them so much the geometry became irrelevant), but was shocked the first time I took one in the dirt and saw how well it worked when the grip was low.

I'm not looking to start an argument because, not only do I just not care, but I've never driven an HL510, 1200 or 210 to compare against, but I've always been amazed how well those goofy semi-trailing arms work in the gravel.

You don't happen to remember, though, what kind of spring rates you were running on the PL510s back then, do you? I've seen some old '70s rally videos where the cars looked like they were set up with really soft rear springs. I copied my spring rates from the Safari cars (the only world rally where overbuilt, underpowered Datsuns could do well).

-Dave






The "new" 510/210 was a
> much better rally car for handling. You could bolt
> in the old 510 Safari quick steering box. The 210
> accepted the 510 frt X member, so a L series block
> would bolt in, with some tunnel massaging. The
> 200SX disc brake diff would bolt in, truck gears
> would fit that and you could have 5:13 gears with
> limited slip or locker options. The late model
> cars were fantastic but no where near an Escort.
> Hard to look away from all of Fords developement
> and that 100hp deficit. And rust..OMG..even our
> west coast cars would rust in a heated garage...
>
> I rememeber being at SIR once, maybe a TransAm
> weekend. There was an old 510 slammed to the
> ground and tight. I suspect it was in IT trim. It
> jarred over every curb, twitched in the corners
> and after a bout 3 laps some guy in a red Opel
> 1900 that sat 2 inches higher just drove past him
> in a corner..on the outside.
>
> I'm really thankful there was no internet in the
> 80's for John to spew his Euro poison around. The
> Datsun,Mazda, Colt days likely would have been
> short lived with Lanes Volvo hanging around then
> or a prepped Merkur...
>
> Even if they didn't go, that BDA sounds so frickin
> neat on song, matched only by the old Audi T5s,
> it's like audible sex...
>
> The build quality of the shells becomes more
> apparent every year as old Volvos and Saabs, even
> VW keeep sitting around intact and just try to
> find a decent old RX3, Arrow or new 510. They are
> nearly extinct.

No need to argue, we all don't like the same things or build cars the same way. I don't remember the spring rates now days. That was back in '85 or so. I think they were out of the "How to Race a Datsun" book or some such. I started out with 610 springs but they were too soft. Because of the spring location a 300 lb was much less at the wheel. I think the road race cars are so stiff that the geometry can't change, plus there are tricks to relocating the rear arm mounting points. I finally got the rear oversteer managable and the car did ok. My first overall win was in that car in Canada. Caught 6 cars that night.

The HL510 handled great, the rear 4 link was much more predictable, but the power wasn't enough and I think it wa heavier than the PL510, no proof of that though. Bolting everything in the 210 shell was the trick. I had support from Datsun Comp (NISMO nowadays) and followed their build advise. 2.2 LZ hybrid, PL510 Safari steering box, 200SX disc brake diff with 4.88s and a Detroit locker. Had one of the big JDM 5speeds with 1st out. The car was quick, surgical in the corners and just plain fun. It was an even match for most 323 GTXs back then. I painted it in primer to match Jimmy Wrights real Escort just to be funny. We called it the Japanese Escort, but many people thought it was a Fiat 131

I do remember riding in the infamous Opel of Dave Clarks. Before Dave owned it. It really did run Amazing ride and brakes on that one.

Wilson, I think certain you're right that the wheel base is the same.. the HSR was just a regular chevette with a wack of stuff glued on.

Why was the Omni so popular back then and no one was rocking the chevette?

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

How related were our Chevettes to the Euro models? I thought it was similar-but-different like our Escort vs. the Mk3 Escort.

(former owner of an Isuzu Impulse, which sucked in every way but chassis)

---

Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

Pete Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How related were our Chevettes to the Euro models?
> I thought it was similar-but-different like our
> Escort vs. the Mk3 Escort.
>
>

Well that's the point I was trying to make. I thought the American Chevettes were a fair amount different?

Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pete Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How related were our Chevettes to the Euro
> models?
> > I thought it was similar-but-different like
> our
> > Escort vs. the Mk3 Escort.
> >
> >
>
> Well that's the point I was trying to make. I
> thought the American Chevettes were a fair amount
> different?

I did some fairly extensive research a few years ago about this.. and my understanding was that the unibody is exactly the same if not extremely close.

What got bolted to it was where the differences began.

Adding to the idea that they are very different cars is that in teh UK there was a sedan version etc.

It's my understanding that the floor pan is exactly the same in a Chevy Chevette, a Vauxhall Chevette, an Opel Kadett C, a Holden Gemini etc.

Opel would bolt different things to it than what Isuzu would etc.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Back in the late 80's early 90's, I worked at a rental store, and the boss ran a Bonneville Camaro. I was in Aircraft maintenance school then, so I got to do alot of sheet metal work on his race cars. He decided he wanted a small car to build to go over 200mph with a NA 249 cid V8.He was very pro american, so we started on a Chevette. Try to picture this, roof chopped to 6 inches high, windshield tipped back to 25 degrees, the front wheels were moved 4 feet forward, and a hand built fiberglass nose was constructed. On the wheels, the car was waist height. Don't know if it ever got completed, but it was pretty fun to work on.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No need to argue, we all don't like the same
> things or build cars the same way. I don't
> remember the spring rates now days. That was back
> in '85 or so. I think they were out of the "How to
> Race a Datsun" book or some such. I started out
> with 610 springs but they were too soft. Because
> of the spring location a 300 lb was much less at
> the wheel. I think the road race cars are so
> stiff that the geometry can't change, plus there
> are tricks to relocating the rear arm mounting
> points. I finally got the rear oversteer managable
> and the car did ok. My first overall win was in
> that car in Canada. Caught 6 cars that night.
>
> The HL510 handled great, the rear 4 link was much
> more predictable, but the power wasn't enough and
> I think it wa heavier than the PL510, no proof of
> that though. Bolting everything in the 210 shell
> was the trick. I had support from Datsun Comp
> (NISMO nowadays) and followed their build advise.
> 2.2 LZ hybrid, PL510 Safari steering box, 200SX
> disc brake diff with 4.88s and a Detroit locker.
> Had one of the big JDM 5speeds with 1st out. The
> car was quick, surgical in the corners and just
> plain fun.

I'll bet your PL510 had a welded diff, eh? I tried that briefly and it was diabolical. Everything before and since has been with an open diff.

I really wish I had done all my racing with a 210 (or, the more I read this thread, a Chevette, just for the humor of it), since I've basically ruined what was once a remarkably clean 2-door 510 shell. I am a bad person...

-Dave