Interetsing new Engine Technology - Fiats new Electro Hydraulic Valve System

Just to clarify, Caterpillar does not use variable valve timing yet. The ACERT concept uses variable injection timing and multiple injections. The older HEUI system did the same thing. So far we are able to meet the teir III emissions standards.

The only way to change the performance of a Caterpillar engine is with a factory generated, time limited, password. That is assuming that you are using the dealer only Cat software.

We were told that the truck manufactuers decided to build there own engines. Cat is going to build their own trucks in partnership with Navistar.

I am typing this while sitting in a Caterpillar school.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to clarify, Caterpillar does not use variable
> valve timing yet. The ACERT concept uses variable
> injection timing and multiple injections. The
> older HEUI system did the same thing. So far we
> are able to meet the teir III emissions
> standards.
>
> The only way to change the performance of a
> Caterpillar engine is with a factory generated,
> time limited, password. That is assuming that you
> are using the dealer only Cat software.
>
> We were told that the truck manufactuers decided
> to build there own engines. Cat is going to build
> their own trucks in partnership with Navistar.
>
> I am typing this while sitting in a Caterpillar
> school.
>
> Robert.

Robert do you feel that our friends in Government have gone too far with Diesel emissions regulations?

What would you do differently?

I ask because of your speaking of your background with Cat engines.

My personal experience is in automotive applications where I see that Government has required gasoline engines to be equipped with schemes to deal with emissions in the first twenty seconds of operation (from a cold startup) that require an electric air pump and other foolishness that invaribly fails at great expense to the consumer for minimal return.

What I see of current diesels is that fuel economy is down and when something fails it is expensive!

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Hey John.

I think that the current regulatory structure for diesel emissions has caused some trouble, but it has also driven good technological developments. Cat brought out the Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injector (HEUI) system to meet tier two standards. HEUI worked but it wasn't all that reliable. Now that the tier three standards are in effect Cat is using a common rail fuel system. I really like the new system and I think it is more efficient and less complex.

I don't know what the future holds but I know that some manufacturers are using EGR, catalysts and particulate filters. I'm not sure how that stuff will work. The old technology was pretty good but I think I like the new style better.

The automotive analogy would be comparing carburetors to fuel injection with an oxygen sensor loop. At the end of the day injection is just better despite it being "emissions controlled".

The brake specific fuel consumption of modern diesel engines is actually up a bit, but hey are hellish expensive. It is also very rare that anyone but the dealer can work on them.

As far as government regulation is concerned......the diesel engine industry is global so there a several fingers on the regulatory pot. I think that the current tier three standards were pushed by the European market.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey John.
>
> I think that the current regulatory structure for
> diesel emissions has caused some trouble, but it
> has also driven good technological developments.
> Cat brought out the Hydraulic Electronic Unit
> Injector (HEUI) system to meet tier two standards.
> HEUI worked but it wasn't all that reliable. Now
> that the tier three standards are in effect Cat is
> using a common rail fuel system. I really like
> the new system and I think it is more efficient
> and less complex.
>
> I don't know what the future holds but I know that
> some manufacturers are using EGR, catalysts and
> particulate filters. I'm not sure how that stuff
> will work. The old technology was pretty good but
> I think I like the new style better.
>
> The automotive analogy would be comparing
> carburetors to fuel injection with an oxygen
> sensor loop. At the end of the day injection is
> just better despite it being "emissions
> controlled".
>
> The brake specific fuel consumption of modern
> diesel engines is actually up a bit, but hey are
> hellish expensive. It is also very rare that
> anyone but the dealer can work on them.
>
> As far as government regulation is
> concerned......the diesel engine industry is
> global so there a several fingers on the
> regulatory pot. I think that the current tier
> three standards were pushed by the European
> market.

Interesting take on this Robert.

I see in today's cars and trucks (gasoline and diesel) that you do not smell them as you follow along behind. The older Cummins motors that the boyz are playing with will make a cloud, but while making real driveline breaking torque..... Quite a contrast with what I remember as a kid with every car on the road smelling pretty bad and my parent's '60 Mercedes 180d being able to make a cloud out the tailpipe that would effectively dim high-beams behind whilst making no more power.

I'm pleased with my Duramax diesel in the pick-up. It is quiet, pulls good, has EGR and some manner of exhaust purifier to go along with (I believe) common rail injection.

The Hellish Expensive part of the equasion is cause for concern.
I've heard that new diesels are not getting the fuel economy that they used to.... Though they pull like heck and are quiet.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Rallymech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just to clarify, Caterpillar does not use variable
> valve timing yet. The ACERT concept uses variable
> injection timing and multiple injections. The
> older HEUI system did the same thing. So far we
> are able to meet the teir III emissions
> standards.
>

Tier 3 wasn't the issue it was tier 4 I thought with it's way way lower NOX and PM requirements? As the phase in for those requirements got closer they bet they could meet them without egr and/or SCR and that seems to have blown up in Cat's face is the story that seems to be bandied about the most.

As far as the man and deisel regs it's kinda frustrating. The engine manufactures got caught circumnavigating EPA regs with fishy engine software in the past and had to adopt future regs sooner as part of a settlement that seemed to leave things a lot more rushed than they would have normally. But they have only themselves to blame for that.

Future California diesel regs are absolutely off the hook and their retro activeness is insane. They will also be applied to ALL vehicles operating in the state so even outside the state of CA registered will need to have compliant equipment. The result is retrofitting of all trucks with particulate filters now and in the near future and any truck not meeting 2010 emissions levels will not be allowed to operate over a phased in schedule. I still kinda think it will blow up once people realize how crazy it is.

Can you imagine if some state says "Oh yeah all cars need to come in and get two cats installed and any car not meeting 2010 emissions will not be allowed to operate unless you swap in a new engine over a set schedule". It's F'in crazy.

The manufacturers can't be left on their own to decide things but the state of CA unilaterally deciding things is not the way to go either.

---

Quote
Morison
[jvl] Ohh noooohs! There's an h'off tawpik thread in the gent-urinal dick-cushion four-hum. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!![/jvl]

RallyTaco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tier 3 wasn't the issue it was tier 4 I thought
> with it's way way lower NOX and PM requirements?
> As the phase in for those requirements got closer
> they bet they could meet them without egr and/or
> SCR and that seems to have blown up in Cat's face
> is the story that seems to be bandied about the
> most.
>
> As far as the man and deisel regs it's kinda
> frustrating. The engine manufactures got caught
> circumnavigating EPA regs with fishy engine
> software in the past and had to adopt future regs
> sooner as part of a settlement that seemed to
> leave things a lot more rushed than they would
> have normally. But they have only themselves to
> blame for that.
>
> Future California diesel regs are absolutely off
> the hook and their retro activeness is insane.
> They will also be applied to ALL vehicles
> operating in the state so even outside the state
> of CA registered will need to have compliant
> equipment. The result is retrofitting of all
> trucks with particulate filters now and in the
> near future and any truck not meeting 2010
> emissions levels will not be allowed to operate
> over a phased in schedule. I still kinda think it
> will blow up once people realize how crazy it is.
>
>
> Can you imagine if some state says "Oh yeah all
> cars need to come in and get two cats installed
> and any car not meeting 2010 emissions will not be
> allowed to operate unless you swap in a new engine
> over a set schedule". It's F'in crazy.
>
> The manufacturers can't be left on their own to
> decide things but the state of CA unilaterally
> deciding things is not the way to go either.

Kalifornia will get away with it until it effects those who are having to pay an extra two dollars for a head of lettuce and the grocer points out what shipping costs have become. Of course then the State will mandate lower shipping costs and subsidise the industry, but only if all the drivers/mechanics/sales people involved in any way with trucking become unionized and thus; Employees of the State of Kalifornia, they will all be required to forget how to read, will have to speak English, Spanish, Russian, Farsi and be expected to do this for IOUs printed by Kalifornia.

How has this not already been done?

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

I still don't think this retroactive diesel emissions crap will make it stop snowing black soot onto my cars all day long here in the shadow of the port of Long Beach. Gotta clean up the giant ships for that shit.

Yea, so Chinese shit will cost more if we clean up the ships. So what? $2 for a Harbor Freight wrench instead of $1? I might be ok with that.

This kind of emissions clampdown only bothers me when its not the low-hanging fruit. Clean up the shit that makes the biggest mess first. If the air is still toxic, then we can talk about trucks. Right now, its just regulation of the politically weak.

(I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I'm close enough to the port to develop an uneducated sense of indignation...)

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still don't think this retroactive diesel
> emissions crap will make it stop snowing black
> soot onto my cars all day long here in the shadow
> of the port of Long Beach. Gotta clean up the
> giant ships for that shit.

Seriously. I can't believe how fast that shit piles up on cars there.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eyesoreracing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I still don't think this retroactive diesel
> > emissions crap will make it stop snowing
> black
> > soot onto my cars all day long here in the
> shadow
> > of the port of Long Beach. Gotta clean up
> the
> > giant ships for that shit.
>
> Seriously. I can't believe how fast that shit
> piles up on cars there.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

I live in Hamilton Ontario.. and for those that don't know it's/was probably the biggest industrial town in Canada. For a while one of the steel mills shutdown completely and it took a while to figure out why the air was so nice.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still don't think this retroactive diesel
> emissions crap will make it stop snowing black
> soot onto my cars all day long here in the shadow
> of the port of Long Beach. Gotta clean up the
> giant ships for that shit.
>
> Yea, so Chinese shit will cost more if we clean up
> the ships. So what? $2 for a Harbor Freight wrench
> instead of $1? I might be ok with that.
>
> This kind of emissions clampdown only bothers me
> when its not the low-hanging fruit. Clean up the
> shit that makes the biggest mess first. If the air
> is still toxic, then we can talk about trucks.
> Right now, its just regulation of the politically
> weak.
>
> (I don't really know what I'm talking about, but
> I'm close enough to the port to develop an
> uneducated sense of indignation...)
>
> -Dave

They're imposing strict new rules on the Port of Oakland next year.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/28/BALB18TVHV.DTL

Old trucks are either banned outright or required to retrofit particulate traps/oxidation catalysts. It will be interesting to see the effect. I read a paper in college where the studied the particulate emissions of the newer (well new at the time) high pressure diesel injectors that were starting to be built. They found that the high pressure resulted in smaller soot particles which were harder for the body to filter. The end result was that the new smaller soot particles were getting deep into peoples lungs... Makes you wonder if the Bunker C emissions from the idling ships might be safer.