Morison Banned Mod Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Wow, the arrogance and astounding second guessing with the benefit of hindsight has hit a new high in this thread.
A bad ground in a system ... everyone knows how easy it is to diagnose electrical problems (was it an intermittant failure? A break in a connector or in the wire? I don't know EXACTLY what the problem was.) As for driver error ... I don't think the video is conclusive enough to really comment on. Single fuel pump... All but one car I've competed in (~8 or so) ran on single, stock pumps. Maybe it was because they were using stock pumps and replacing them with NEW stock pumps (not unknown scrapyard pumps) that they felt that oem fitment with an oem tank was a reasonable risk. (you can't prepare for every stage ending eventuality and I would call fuel pump failures rare-ish) I'm not a 'fan boy' but having met and talked with them I can tell you that on event Ken and Alex are both among the most approachable and 'real' guys I've come across when rallying. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 ![]()
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Jon Burke Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > > I'm working on it!! > > > > seriously though, its one of those things 'if it > ain't broke, don't fix it' (like my > god-damned-cost-me-CRS-points-and-a-pretty-good-ov > erall-finish fucking aluminum drive shaft) > > adding a second in-line pump, or a redundant pump > means going in there with more fuel lines, custom > mounting brackets, etc, etc, etc....and a whole > lot more TIME and cost for something that's on the > low end of the probably scale of breaking (its > already an upgraded pump, not the OEM > one)....trade-off between having it and getting on > stage...I chose 'getting on stage' > > plus, I need to replace all the interior fuel > lines anyway, so eventually I'll start a thread on > that and the fuel pump! > > there's a LOT of shit that ain't done on this car > yet, but at least i'm racing! > > Jon Burke - KI6LSW > Blog: > 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10 HA! Low probability? Ha! In fact , Ha! HA! I'd even go so far to say HA! HA! HA! In fact I'm feeeling kinda fiesty cause I've had dual pumps since maybe 87 and I've had SEVERAL close friends fuck themselves up their own asses and, like Sam Bryan, DNF on the transit back from the last stage----pissing away a good 5th or so OA in Rocky Mountain National and get to sit out on the prairie for 4-5 hours before I asked---all beered up---uh like where's Sam and George? So I say HAR! HAR!! Low probability my ass. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Morison Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Wow, the arrogance and astounding second guessing > with the benefit of hindsight has hit a new high > in this thread. > > A bad ground in a system ... everyone knows how > easy it is to diagnose electrical problems (was it > an intermittant failure? A break in a connector or > in the wire? I don't know EXACTLY what the problem > was.) > > As for driver error ... I don't think the video is > conclusive enough to really comment on. > > Single fuel pump... All but one car I've competed > in (~8 or so) ran on single, stock pumps. Maybe it > was because they were using stock pumps and > replacing them with NEW stock pumps (not unknown > scrapyard pumps) that they felt that oem fitment > with an oem tank was a reasonable risk. (you can't > prepare for every stage ending eventuality and I > would call fuel pump failures rare-ish) > > I'm not a 'fan boy' but having met and talked with > them I can tell you that on event Ken and Alex are > both among the most approachable and 'real' guys > I've come across when rallying. One pump. You're stupid. But we all know that. The other guys are only ignorant, they're beginners, and they get merely some scolding, but you portray yourself, and have, as having your finger on the pulse of what's happening NOW, an expert on EVERYTHING, so if you ran one pump, you're stupid. And since you're stupid, shut the fuck up about arrogance. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Dazed_Driver Banned Ultra Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
John, what kind of pumps do you use? dual junkyard pumps? Or dual new ones? What about your one lift pump? What happens when that fails? Do you have a duel lift pump into a dual fuel pump setup? Also, You seem more the "expert in everything" then Keith does. Just an observation. Then again, I know Keith about as well as you actually know me... so... it really does mean much. Don't get me wrong, though, I do agree two pumps should be important, but not everyone HAS to do it like you, or Ford. People are allowed to go out and run their cars how they want to, not how you tell them. (should be fairly obvious) (and flame suit on... *rolls eyes* ) Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned. |
Morison Banned Mod Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
john vanlandingham Wrote:
> One pump. > You're stupid. > But we all know that. Whatever ... You're an expert when it comes to baiting people john ... I'd even sat you're a master at it. > ...but you portray yourself, and have, as having your > finger on the pulse of what's happening NOW, an > expert on EVERYTHING, Actually, I'm really quick to admit when I don't know something. But I am also quick to express, and support, opinions based on the real world experiences I've had. >... so if you ran one pump, you're stupid. Or running in 'production' classes where a second pump isn't allowed.(Both cars I drove were production cars, Cars I've co-driven I've never had significant [read financial] input in on preparation.) I strongly believe in redundant systems and definitely see the value of a second fuel pump. Knowing that fuel pump failures happen in about ~0.4% of the starts I have seen since I started rallying I'd say that the priority of redundancy is reasonably low. I certainly wouldn't not rally a car because it didn't have a second fuel pump. > And since you're stupid, shut the fuck up about arrogance. Yah - that's adding to the discussion in a mature fashion! First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 ![]()
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 05:37PM by Morison. |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Professional Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Elite Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Dazed_Driver Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > > John, what kind of pumps do you use? dual junkyard > pumps? Fuck you, asshole. \ Or dual new ones? Yeah, idiot. what do you think? What about your one lift > pump? Plumbed out the bottom of the tank so there is no need for a lift pump. On BOTH the Saab and the Ford---cause I think ahead. What happens when that fails? Do you have a > duel lift pump into a dual fuel pump setup? Idiot. > > Also, You seem more the "expert in everything" > then Keith does. That's because I have been building competition machines as long as Morrison has been ALIVE. And it has been/is/was a full time job. Most people learn a bit about what they are doing after 10-20-40 years. Most people PLAYING at things want to think they know a lot, but there's a difference in types of "knowing". Just an observation. Then again, > I know Keith about as well as you actually know > me... so... it really does mean much. I know you fairly well. You are not as a unique thing as you think you are. In fact you are very nearly--nearly I said---a classic text book example of your social class. > > Don't get me wrong, though, I do agree two pumps > should be important, but not everyone HAS to do it > like you, or Ford. People are allowed to go out > and run their cars how they want to, not how you > tell them. (should be fairly obvious) They can and when they DNF on the first stage it shows they FUCKED UP SERIOUSLY and that they were "Unprofessional" somewhere. If they DNFed on the last stage and threw away a top 5 National Result----after they of course had been warned "Dude buying one fuckin expensive Holley pump is awfully cocky--better to use 2 Facet Red Tops like this ![]() Then they fucked up seriously too, and they THEIR arogance bit them in the ass. Come on Timmy, imagine you ever get your car going and tow 760 miles up to a National and you had a long fight of maybe 170 SS miles and then, because you are mistaken in how smart you think you are, and you are pflat obstinant about arguing with whatever anybody tells you, you used one pump and it fries on the way back to the finish. All the prop, the towing, the entry fee, the hopes, the driving, all down the drain cause there wasn't a second pump to just reach over and flip the switch. You'd be crushed---assuming you ever do a stage---and if you had been warned, then it would have been stupid, and reflect an inability to think clearly. I'm not telling ANYBODY that they have to do anything any particular way, but I will say that some things are flat stupid. Like you arguing with me is flat stupid. Your arguing with something that makes sense is why I feel you're mentally retarded, and don't have anywhere near the basic intelligence to ever be allowed near a medical school for example. You are arguing with me because you feel slighted and you feel that I don't like you. That's stupid. > > > > > (and flame suit on... *rolls eyes* ) > > Feisty Peacock? > > My noodle I doodled was ate by a poodle John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Professional Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
Morison Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- >> I strongly believe in redundant systems and > definitely see the value of a second fuel pump. > Knowing that fuel pump failures happen in about > ~0.4% of the starts I have seen since I started > rallying I'd say that the priority of redundancy > is reasonably low. I certainly wouldn't rally a > car because it didn't have a second fuel pump. > I actually have to agree with Keith here. I think it's really a good idea to have a back up pump. On road race cars (like for World Challenge, ALMS) we certainly have secondary pumps. But thinking back I can't remember any car I've been involved with ever having a fuel pump failure. Never had to flip the switch to back up pump on my Opel. I did have a loose ground wire on my Omni at a rallysprint once, but that was easily diagnosed and rectified. So yeah, as long as you're not using old worn out shit then I think the chances of a pump failure are pretty low but it CAN and DOES happen occaisionally. Better to prepare for it and be able to just flip a switch than to have to park on the side of the stage and watch everybody drive by. But it's not something you're going to have to worry about very often. If so then you really need to change fuel pump suppliers. Still, I find it incredible if Block's megabuck Escort with paddle shift doesn't have two pumps. Oh, and to me it looked like he overcorrected and the front tires caught grip and sent him into the ditch. |
Morison Banned Mod Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > I actually have to agree with Keith here. Sorry about that Dave :-) > Still, I find it incredible if Block's megabuck > Escort with paddle shift doesn't have two pumps. I guess the real question is do you KNOW it Didn't have two pumps? Internet reports of why the car couldn't continue are hardly authoritative (as would be internet reports of the car's spec.) I don't remember seeing pix of the fuel set-up and I didn't take that close of a look at the car myself. First Rally: 2001 Driver (7), Co-Driver (44) Drivers (16) Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4) Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0) Last Updated, January 4, 2015 ![]()
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Dazed_Driver Banned Ultra Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
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Morison Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > > Still, I find it incredible if Block's > megabuck > > Escort with paddle shift doesn't have two > pumps. > > I guess the real question is do you KNOW it Didn't > have two pumps? Internet reports of why the car > couldn't continue are hardly authoritative (as > would be internet reports of the car's spec.) I > don't remember seeing pix of the fuel set-up and I > didn't take that close of a look at the car > myself. I know next to nothing. But my guess is that after nearly writing the car off on the first stage of the rally, drawers got filled and a convenient excuse was found to not continue. This line of argument re dual or singular fuel pumps is ridiculous (IMO). Everyone is right about that argument. So let's move on. Andrew M Onterrible 30ish |
Doivi Clarkinen Banned Professional Moderator Location: the end of the universe Join Date: 02/12/2006 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,432 Rally Car: 1980 Opel Ascona B |
Morison Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Doivi Clarkinen Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > > Still, I find it incredible if Block's > megabuck > > Escort with paddle shift doesn't have two > pumps. > > I guess the real question is do you KNOW it Didn't > have two pumps? That's what I'm saying, I'd be surprised if it didn't. Besides, everyone knows that the fuel pump is what you blame when you don't want to say what REALLY happened... |
Dazed_Driver Banned Ultra Moderator Location: John and Skyes Magic Love liar Join Date: 08/24/2007 Posts: 2,154 |
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Morison Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Doivi Clarkinen Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > Still, I find it incredible if Block's > > megabuck > > > Escort with paddle shift doesn't have > two > > pumps. > > > > I guess the real question is do you KNOW it > Didn't > > have two pumps? > > That's what I'm saying, I'd be surprised if it > didn't. Besides, everyone knows that the fuel > pump is what you blame when you don't want to say > what REALLY happened... Thats how I feel about it. I'm not convinced it really was a fuel pump ground issue, haha. Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned. |
Jon Burke Jon Burke Super Moderator Location: San Francisco, CA Join Date: 01/03/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,402 Rally Car: Subaru w/<1000 crashes |
Doivi Clarkinen Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Jon Burke Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > plus, I need to replace all the interior > fuel > > lines anyway, > > > Why? > where the stock lines go in/out of the body in the rear they passed right smack dab where we have our rear hoop foot....so we bent the shit out of them to make it all work (and keep them INside the cage), but its not a very good long term solution. Same with up front, we had to bend them out of the way of the cage. So I want to replace those bends with some SS flex fuel lines. Keep the stock steel lines that go straight through the car, but replace those bent parts. Jon Burke - KI6LSW Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/ |
Lurch Eric Burmeister Elite Moderator Location: Michigan Join Date: 02/14/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 307 Rally Car: Mazdaspeed3 and Mazda Protege |
2 lifts pumps...get the AC Delcos (like Fuel Safe/ATL sell), not the interchange parts that every parts store tries to sell you with the same part number made outta dried dog poo and tin. They will fail in short order with race fuel.
2 pressure pumps. I like the Walbros. 255LPH at high pressure, half the size of Bosch, and half the cost. Feeds 450hp just fine. John's point about the ground is well taken. If they carried so much as a leatherman it is likely they could have fashioned a ground at the pump, but who knows. Maybe the whole car is fiberglass and non conductive anywhere within several feet of the fuel pump(s). Lurch Eric Burmeister The west coast...of Michigan Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2009 07:03PM by Lurch. |