I really didn't struggle verty much trying to decipher the fatuos press release about adding 3 "Euro style Rally-cross" as non points in '10 and "maybe more in '11.

I did wonder if they INTENT was to eventually chage to track only events in stages and wondered who would build a "Euro style" car for something that would be a good enough spectacle to be exciting and compete with for example Stadium trucks.
Got some flak from Dave Clark for wondering aloud what this means but he probably was just grumbling.

But then from that other place I see this:
[quote} rallyxmark rallyxmark is offline
200 square left

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 112
Default
Just to respond to a couple of comments re car damage and competiveness of G2 cars in Rallycross/RallyRacing.

European Rallycross is a non-contact sport and many rally guys come into it in Europe to save a lot of money. Sure on MotorsportMad you see the well funded Scandinavians destroying $500k cars but you don't see this in the national championships and the emphasis will be on Rally America to strictly police driving standards. This isn't CORRS or NASCAR.

Re G2 cars - why won't they be competitive? In rallycross the cars are set in heats based on their timed practice so you are always racing against equally competitive cars and drivers. Sure you may not win but perhaps you just weren't fast enough. My girfriend will race her Focus so you will have some G2 competition.

Mark
www.williamsrallyracing.co[/quote]


Oh so there goes the chance for enough 'merikan style action to make it worth watching it seems

Who would be atracted to this closed circuit, door to door on loose but not contact sport?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

non contact my ass....

road racing is "non contact" and even they rub door handles.

You got a 3 minute heat to pass people...yep...there's gonna be contact, and between alot of rally guys who have never ever raced door handle to door handle.



We go to Sherbrooke for an international Ice race, where there are $500,000 EURO cars racing, with ex-F1 drivers..... they are the first guys to give you the chrome horn and move you outta the way. This was supposed to be a "non-contact event". Guess what? my car looked worse than a full season of ice racing in our local series.

---

Chris

Do It Sidewayz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> non contact my ass....
>
> road racing is "non contact" and even they rub
> door handles.
>
> You got a 3 minute heat to pass
> people...yep...there's gonna be contact, and
> between alot of rally guys who have never ever
> raced door handle to door handle.
>
>
>
> We go to Sherbrooke for an international Ice race,
> where there are $500,000 EURO cars racing, with
> ex-F1 drivers..... they are the first guys to give
> you the chrome horn and move you outta the way.
> This was supposed to be a "non-contact event".
> Guess what? my car looked worse than a full
> season of ice racing in our local series.
>
> Chris

exactly. Just because its not contact, doesnt mean it wont happen.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

If there is intentional contact a black flag will be thrown. If it is accidental then it may be allowed. Contact will be policed. Nerfing someone out of the way won't be allowed, diving into a corner with no chance of making it other than pushing someone out of the way won't be allowed. RA has a pretty good idea of what they want and I'll bet they produce a great program.

The thing that cracks me up is the 'whineing' over contact. I looked at the RA and NRS rulebooks and there is no rule prohibiting wrecking a rally car on stage. Rubbing fenders is way less destructive than a 80 mph off into a tree or canyon. Any race car at any location is at risk of body damage. Rally, road race, drag race or RallyX...hell I've seen people wreck cars at an auto cross.

I raced dirt tracks for years and we made a bit of contact once in a while, it's just not that bad.

If we have a true EuroX in our locale in the next couple years I will gladly build a car.

They are not replacing rally with rallyx,it is a different program with a good potential of being self supporting.

I think we all love watching the swearing Irish in-car where they use the 'chrome horn' to let people know they are behind them. Contact is far less common in rally but we all know that 'bump to pass' happens.

The thing is (that) Mark Williams is speaking from experience having been a regular rally-cross competitor in the UK, so he does have some first-hand knowledge and experience.

I suppose you can look at 'non-contact' in the same way you look at a 'non-profit' association... you can't make a profit but you can run budget surpluses.

I think the real disconnect is the expectation that there will be a 'clubman' level to this (at least in the first couple of years.) My expectation is that this will be a big buck show right out of the gate and the 'feeder' classes will follow.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is intentional contact a black flag will
> be thrown. If it is accidental then it may be
> allowed. Contact will be policed. Nerfing someone
> out of the way won't be allowed, diving into a
> corner with no chance of making it other than
> pushing someone out of the way won't be allowed.
> RA has a pretty good idea of what they want and
> I'll bet they produce a great program.
>
> The thing that cracks me up is the 'whineing' over
> contact. I looked at the RA and NRS rulebooks and
> there is no rule prohibiting wrecking a rally car
> on stage. Rubbing fenders is way less destructive
> than a 80 mph off into a tree or canyon. Any race
> car at any location is at risk of body damage.
> Rally, road race, drag race or RallyX...hell I've
> seen people wreck cars at an auto cross.
>
> I raced dirt tracks for years and we made a bit of
> contact once in a while, it's just not that bad.
>
> If we have a true EuroX in our locale in the next
> couple years I will gladly build a car.
>
> They are not replacing rally with rallyx,it is a
> different program with a good potential of being
> self supporting.


That's what I was wondering and several I've talked to including some guys way smarter than be could figure out from they Bullshit release if it was envisioned to be establishing a Gringo-ized verion of the loony stuff we've seen overseas as a SEPARATE thing---or if as it seemed to me and some others that the RA season would be 6 events in the first half THEN transmogrify (and <----that's a real word, too!!) into Eggs-games and wally-croix for the second half.

Wonder who'd build a beater for Folkrace?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Don't Saturns have plastic rebound body panels or something? The Fiero too?

---

In the long run reality always wins.

From what I got out of the press release it sounded like RA was going to try to use the rallycross to subsidize the real rallies. If that works then thats good.

I dont see a ton of current rally guys switching over to rallycross, though. I figure there will be a bunch of somebodies from other racing formats that come in for the rallycross events. All of us rally guys are too cheap to build proper rallycross cars that will be fast and entertain.

>
> Wonder who'd build a beater for Folkrace?
>

My maroon XR shell could be made into a Folkrace car in no time!

Problem around here is the NIMBY mamby pamby Massholes who have come up to ruin our fair LIVE FREE OR DIE state would NEVER let you bulldoze a Folkrace course anywhere around. Hell, one town nearby got wind that maybe somebody was thinking about having a dirt cone squishing contest in a field near (what serves as) a highway and changed their zoning laws to BAN MOTORSPORT in the town.

Oh, and here's the fee schedule for the next local dirt cone squishing contest. I think it's a little out of control. I can see $55 for maybe the last minute walk-in rate...but $90? For less seat time than it takes to go get a six pack at the store?

8 November 2009
RallyCross: SCCA - $55 [received before 30 Oct 09].
Non-SCCA and Late SCCA - $75
Entry includes lunch @ Jackson Gore Inn
Walk-in & not pre-registered – member or non-member - $90.

SCCA membership costs if you decide you're doing enough events: $65 National dues plus $25 NER Regional dues.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

Awwwww fuck man.
I heard from Graham about some Masshole POS causing problems for him for hving a little fun.
Deport the fawkers back to Massivetwoshits.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

fiasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > >

>
> Oh, and here's the fee schedule for the next local
> dirt cone squishing contest. I think it's a little
> out of control. I can see $55 for maybe the last
> minute walk-in rate...but $90? For less seat time
> than it takes to go get a six pack at the store?
>
> 8 November 2009
> RallyCross: SCCA - $55 .
> Non-SCCA and Late SCCA - $75
> Entry includes lunch @ Jackson Gore Inn
> Walk-in & not pre-registered – member or
> non-member - $90.
>
> SCCA membership costs if you decide you're doing
> enough events: $65 National dues plus $25 NER
> Regional dues.
>
> Andrew Steere, 1973
> Lyndeborough, NH
> KB1PJY

damned....that expensive. our next event over 'dis coast is $90 for 2 full days +dueling run-offs for points leaders.



Anyway, my .02 on the subject is I think its a good idea and all, but its going to take a lot of work to execute properly....so who's doing all that? Gene, you said that RA will put on a good show, but RA doesn't actually put on any events, right? so who are they getting to put on this shindig? I see a lot of dollar signs on this one.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 07:39PM by Jon Burke.

Jon Burke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fiasco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > > >
>
> >
> > Oh, and here's the fee schedule for the next
> local
> > dirt cone squishing contest. I think it's a
> little
> > out of control. I can see $55 for maybe the
> last
> > minute walk-in rate...but $90? For less seat
> time
> > than it takes to go get a six pack at the
> store?
> >
> > 8 November 2009
> > RallyCross: SCCA - $55 .
> > Non-SCCA and Late SCCA - $75
> > Entry includes lunch @ Jackson Gore Inn
> > Walk-in & not pre-registered – member or
> > non-member - $90.
> >
> > SCCA membership costs if you decide you're
> doing
> > enough events: $65 National dues plus $25
> NER
> > Regional dues.
> >
> > Andrew Steere, 1973
> > Lyndeborough, NH
> > KB1PJY
>
> damned....that expensive. our next event over
> 'dis coast is $90 for 2 full days +dueling
> run-offs for points leaders.
>
>
>
> Anyway, my .02 on the subject is I think its a
> good idea and all, but its going to take a lot of
> work to execute properly....so who's doing all
> that? Gene, you said that RA will put on a good
> show, but RA doesn't actually put on any events,
> right? so who are they getting to put on this
> shindig? I see a lot of dollar signs on this
> one.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> Blog:
> 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 22, 2009 by Jon
> Burke.


Well I don't know..but I don't see why they couldn't put them on. A closed course track wouldn't require the normal organizing comittee we're used to. If you have a paid gate then you can pay for help like a normal track would and no need to find large numbers of volunteers.

I like fender to fender racing. I like the split decision, reflexive aspect. The beauty of this includes just one guy can trailer to the race and race. No service crew needed. It will be quite affordable and using the 'heat' system of qualifiers there will be lots of track time. Here's a brief rundown of the car rules:

Rally America Racing Technical Information; (European-style rallycross)

NOTE: This is not a rule book, and this information is provided to assist in car preparation, minor adjustments to content and wording will occur.

Except where noted, normal Rally America technical rules apply.

Eligibility: Any driver in good standing holding an unrestricted Rally America National or Regional License.

2 Classes: (To be named) 4WD, and (To be named) 2WD.

4WD:

For vehicles sold in the USA as 4WD vehicles and using their original drive configuration:

Max 2,700 cc w/forced induction.
45-millimeter restrictor
minimum 3,000lbs with driver
Active center diff is OK.


For vehicles not sold in the USA as a 4WD vehicle:

Max 2,058cc w/ forced induction.
45-millimeter restrictor
minimum 3,000lbs with driver
At least 50% of the engine block must be ahead of the front wheels' center-line.
Active diffs are prohibited.
Variable valve timing is not permitted.

2WD:

Any Rally America 2WD vehicle.

Other changes from Rally America rulesBoth Classes)

• Catalytic converters are not required.
• Water injection and water spray are prohibited.
• Sound check / noise limiters will not be enforced unless required by local ordinance.
• Although there will be no co-drivers in the event, 4WD must be equipped with approved co-driver seating and restraints at all times during the event for media use. (recommended for 2WD)
• Vehicles are not required to be licensed or insured.
• All lamps may be removed.
• Contoured covers resembling lamps must be used when lamps are removed.
• If tail lamps are removed, 2 working brake lamps must be installed in the rear window area.
• No other lamps are required to function.
• Polycarbonate windshields may be used in place of OE safety glass.
• Not required: First Aid Kits, Triangles, Tow Ropes, Spill Kits, and in-vehicle spare tires are not required.
• Hand held fire extinguishers are not required if the vehicle is equipped with an FIA or SFI approved on board fire extinguisher system.
• The complete wheel and tire assembly must fit in a 10” wide “U” shaped gage. (measuring the inflated but unloaded width of the tire and wheel assembly)
• Maximum wheel diameter is 18”
• Novice rules apply to 4WD, but not 2WD
• Roll cages complying to SCCA GCR appendix G for SS, IT, T, and AS cars are allowed.
__________________
Mike Hurst
Competition Director
Rally America





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2009 12:09AM by heymagic.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I like fender to fender racing. I like the split
> decision, reflexive aspect. The beauty of this
> includes just one guy can trailer to the race and
> race. No service crew needed. It will be quite
> affordable and using the 'heat' system of
> qualifiers there will be lots of track time.
> Here's a brief rundown of the car rules:

>
> Eligibility: Any driver in good standing holding
> an unrestricted Rally America National or Regional
> License.
>

if anyone can race, i can only imagine the boredom. just by looking at the disparity in cars currently, i could foresee huge gaps in the race. first half of a lap, maybe cool or interesting. hell, maybe even the first lap. the rest......


zzzzzzzzzz........

---

-Mark
www.nocoastmotorsports.net

I am honored to be referened by the legendary JVL. I wanted to give my two cents after having raced in rallycross in everything from 850cc Mini's to 550hp Ford Escort WRC and Lancers.

Obviously purely my thoughts

- rallycross will not replace rally. Some drivers will cross over but the bulk won't. The ones that do will be very successful because rally drivers have far greater car control than newbies and circuit racers.

- rallycross is more likely to attract people from SCCA rallycross due to its far lower entry cost than stage rally and some circuit racing folk

- it is non-contact if the organizers do their job.

- rallycross was originally developed for English tv to broadcast live when horse racing was cancelled due to fog! It is designed to be short, action packed, etc - perfect for the AD/HD generation

- dust shouldn't be an issue. All trackers run water bowsers and this is in NJ in the Fall - mud is more likely to be the issue!

- cars don't have to be fast to be fun to race in. 850 Mini's don't exactly put out too much power and the stock racing in the UK is usually the most fun because without the mods you have really close racing

- I really hope RA introduce a 'stock' class that let's people build cars for around $3k at the max. This would allow people to get into proper motorsport and build a base of rallycross drivers. A few (very few) will move onto real rally

- budget - I can only speak from my own experience but I recently put a deal together to run a Focus WRC at a British event (full tv coverage, 10k crowd - and my mum could watch!) and it would have cost me quite a lot less than it took me to run my Imrepza at most RA/NASA events last year (but I have one of the horrible people who works too much and is too stupid to do any work on their own car)

I am happy to be blasted although hopefully not insulted although us English aren't all that sensitive.

Happy to answer any real questions or even some of the bashing.

For me, I will rally because I became hooked and dropped rallycross. Sure I will do some rallycross events but remember I have the advantage of being in CT.....


Mark
www.williamsrallyracing.com

>
> Anyway, my .02 on the subject is I think its a
> good idea and all, but its going to take a lot of
> work to execute properly....so who's doing all
> that? Gene, you said that RA will put on a good
> show, but RA doesn't actually put on any events,
> right? so who are they getting to put on this
> shindig? I see a lot of dollar signs on this
> one.
>
> Jon Burke - KI6LSW
> Blog:
> 'Holy Shit!' @ 4:10
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Oct 22, 2009 by Jon
> Burke.


My guess would be a revenue share with the local track operator/promoter.

RA either takes a percentage of the gate or a fixed dollar amount of the gate (they get $5.00 per ticket sold, race promoter can set the price wherever they want) and the track promoter does all the real leg work in the hopes of attracting enough people to clear a nice margin.

It is a common enough practice at tracks that I wouldn't be surprised to see RA pursue something similar to one of these arrangements.