john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh you're right your deep and penetrating analysis
> is obviously right gained as it is in your few
> years hanging around the sport, and overwhelms my
> experience completely, yep I haven't learned a
> thing in the last 25 years.

Dude, haven't you realized yet that the world isn't filled with absolutes? Your post suggests that the only reason anyone would ever get rid of a rally car is because it is shite and not worth considering at all. I disagree and went to the trouble of showing you several real world examples of cars for sale, or sold, for very legitimate reasons that had nothing to do with the spec of the car.

> And I guess those guys that have bought pre-built
> cars that need such extensive re-working to be
> half right were just idiots and complainers.

Wow, it really is either black or white with you isn't it.
Of course not all used cars will be winners. And without a doubt most 'cheap' cars are going to need a ton of work to get the most out of them. BUT ... my point is that doing a first season in a piece of shit car is not a bad way to see what the sport is about and help someone decide if they want to make the heavy investment of building (or rebuilding) a car and building the support network needed to rally.

I've seen people invest a lot of time and money to build their first car only to make some seriously expensive mistakes making the car unable to be logbooked or run.

> I think I'll kick them in the nuts next time i see
> 'em.

Have at it ... but don't even remotely suggest it was my idea.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I think that being able to get out on the stages quickly for the first time beats every other argument, but especially if someone has more time than money. I've seen at least a couple of posts on this thread saying that the problem is time, not money, and yet they are building (slowly of course). What's the point in that? Do you want to be a rally driver or a rally car builder?

Now, if you can build a car in a few months, even if it's just throwing a cage, skid plate and seats at it, that's fine. But to spend years building a car while you while you wish to be out rallying? That's crazy.

---

-----------------------------
http://www.max-attack.com

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh you're right your deep and penetrating
> analysis
> > is obviously right gained as it is in your
> few
> > years hanging around the sport, and
> overwhelms my
> > experience completely, yep I haven't learned
> a
> > thing in the last 25 years.
>
> Dude, haven't you realized yet that the world
> isn't filled with absolutes? Your post suggests
> that the only reason anyone would ever get rid of
> a rally car is because it is shite and not worth
> considering at all. I disagree and went to the
> trouble of showing you several real world examples
> of cars for sale, or sold, for very legitimate
> reasons that had nothing to do with the spec of
> the car.
>
> > And I guess those guys that have bought
> pre-built
> > cars that need such extensive re-working to
> be
> > half right were just idiots and complainers.
>
> Wow, it really is either black or white with you
> isn't it.
> Of course not all used cars will be winners. And
> without a doubt most 'cheap' cars are going to
> need a ton of work to get the most out of them.
> BUT ... my point is that doing a first season in a
> piece of shit car is not a bad way to see what the
> sport is about and help someone decide if they
> want to make the heavy investment of building (or
> rebuilding) a car and building the support network
> needed to rally.
>
> I've seen people invest a lot of time and money to
> build their first car only to make some seriously
> expensive mistakes making the car unable to be
> logbooked or run.
>
> > I think I'll kick them in the nuts next time
> i see
> > 'em.
>
> Have at it ... but don't even remotely suggest it
> was my idea.
>



I don't even finish one line and I see you are in fact as stupid, rigid and thick headed as any dumb spoiled 20 year old.
Fuck, you are stupid, Morison.
NEVER have I said or suggested in any realm or area that things are black/white or absolute except maybe things we can pick up and measure, and I'm sure even them some asshole is going write a tome on the tempurate in Kelvin the material is, how long you held it blah blah blah blah.
Only fucking absolutes I know of are death and your pomposity.

"All the trouble" of everything you have ever written at SS.com or here has never resulted in one even glimmer of insight, never once have I said to myself, "oh that was interesting", indeed you seem only capable of repeating and mildly rephrasing the most inane, stilted so called "conventional wisdom".
And that's pretty lame, as "convention wisdom" usually is.

You've stated your opinion, fine.
Can't you accept that somebody may the fuck not agree with you.

I fucking said you're right and still you harp on.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Space, lack of space to work on the car is currently keeping me away. If I had a garage, I’d be at Pines this weekend. I know where I live is a personal decision, but it's one that has to be shared with my partner, and so we live in the city. Yes a borrowed garage would help, but that sucks when you can’t just go out for a few minutes to ‘do something’ or you need to call to ask if you can come over. I think Grant mentioned a co-op, something like that would be cool, if;

A: it was dirt cheap (hard to do),
B: accessible at all hours (not too hard)
C: enough people to support it (hard/not so hard depending on who you invite)

Those rent-a-bay places can work if you have a good report with the owner, but generally they are far too expensive to build a car in, and the opening hours suck (I want to wrench a 1:00 am when I can’t sleep).

The other problem currently is lack of a class I want, read on:

The couple of seasons I ran, we actually pulled off dirt cheap rallying. Yes we had some poor results due to inexperience (and some build problems), but overall we had a blast. I had access to a decent shop for little or no money and a place to park my tools and car.

Built the car in 2 months for $3000, all in including seats, tires and odo, managed to run for about -$200 plus entry per event. We did it because the car was very light, and had no hp. We ran one set of tires for two seasons and lots of practice. Our fuel budget for a season was less then most crew’s weekend.

I think the desire to be in 200+ hp cars is part of the problem. While I agree it’s great to have a car that can move along with the driver, the lack of respect for good sub-compact cars in North America drives the entry cost way up. With a car under 1800 lbs, you don’t need to worry about burning up brakes and tires, and all the other bits that go with heavy, high hp cars. I really wish that P1 had remained in Canada, but I understand the lack of good cars for that class doesn’t help. However, I’m sure that if the ideology of a rally car in North America was not only an open class Suby or Mitsu, but also a Swift, a Yaris or Festiva, there would be more folks not running out of cash after a few events.

These cars are fun, cheap, and can be fast. Look at Spongle’s and Watt/Bacon in the new Swift in 04/05, Kocandrle in the old Swift (watch him go this week at Pines!). And of course look east to Europe were, yes we see lots of big cars, but also lots of guys running at the back in competitive low hp classes.

I don’t think there’s an easy solution. People who are drawn to the sport like to go fast, most think you need a big car to do that, or to feel that. But I’ll tell you, a few km’s slower in a tiny car, and you feel like you’re doing 10 km’s more then the big cars.

For me it means once I have a shop worked out, I’m going to re-build the car to run Open… basically since we would get wooped in Production Sport, and this way I can fix some inherent ‘production’ problems for a 20 yr old car I can hardly get OEM parts for now. Screw being competitive, I just want to have fun.

My inexperienced two cents,

Matt





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2009 11:52AM by Mad Matt F.

Build versus buy...silly arguement in a lot of ways.

Firstly consider ALL rally cars were built by someone. Saying that a newbie building his first car will have a better car than buying a prebuilt is just not correct.

Spending lotsa years and mass dollars is no insurance that the car or driver will be a contender. Not to mention the fact that a career built car can be totaled a mile in... the same as a low buck used car.

You could buy a $4k rally car, refurbish it a bit, drive a year and give it away. You would then lose less than someone who did the same but built a $60k open class car.

There is nothing wrong with buying a used car, just do so with really open eyes. Take a scrutineer with you to check it out first.

There is nothing wrong with building either but, some people don't have the skills or time to do so.

It was easier to build a good cheap car in the old days because you could go buy really good Tokico or Bilstein shocks for cheap. The strut housing were very stout compared to stock stuff nowadays.

Timewise you should be able to build a car in a month with little effort and reasonable funds. If you don't have the funding or time or equipment or skills or place to build then it simply takes longer, doesn't mean it will be a better car tho..

I bought a trashed RX7 rally car that had a terrible finishing record. Spent a few events and some small dollars fixing it. Won lots of divisionals and a 1st place Open national with that used beater. Sold it and the next 2 owners had nothing but grief. There is an ass for every saddle...

Shenan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that being able to get out on the stages
> quickly for the first time beats every other
> argument, but especially if someone has more time
> than money. I've seen at least a couple of posts
> on this thread saying that the problem is time,
> not money, and yet they are building (slowly of
> course). What's the point in that? Do you want to
> be a rally driver or a rally car builder?
>
> Now, if you can build a car in a few months, even
> if it's just throwing a cage, skid plate and seats
> at it, that's fine. But to spend years building a
> car while you while you wish to be out rallying?
> That's crazy.

Maybe.
But lookie Shen, and Hi again by the way, been a while since you've posted,
(and this is all PNW experience and not suggesting it applies anywhere else)
Back when we could get a 510 or a Maz-dog or a Opel or a Saab for 150 buck, bolt in a Saftey Devices cage in, slap on faily good shocks/inserts for $65 a corner and tow or drive 65 miles to a Divisional and pay $75 for 85 stage miles, way back then we could wing it a lot more on everything, and then sketchy wiring, dodgy clutch, un-reinforced shell, crappy seats etc weren't such a big deal.

But with cheap entries now 450-600, events 8+ hours to tow, the time off and motels "needed" for 3-4 days so people can play like what the watch on TV, the whole total investment so expensive, that it does mean that people should have their junk way more ship shape before they piss away all those othe costs with some dodgy POS dog car and maybe a DNF on the first stage or second as we've seen many people do even when they have lots of experience.
How much more frustrating would it be for Team Newbz to not really get to "learn" anything because of a crap car that pukes early on?

Since I've liked your commentary in the past, you maybe tell me what's so pressing about "getting out on stages quickly for the first time"?

I've never understood that.

I have always suggested that unless somebody has a lot of moto-cross or enduro experience, and I mean 10 years or so of active riding, that they should go out with some of the older/more experience guys and practice the basics.
I call it "doing the scales" as in piano practice: simple full throttle straight acceleration, simple max braking straight ahead, learning to look at roads with an open set of eyes (looking for the crown of the road, looking at sight lines, looking far enough ahead, back to braking straight ahead, and eventually brake and initiate to get the timing of brake/initiate down and where they should do it.

This has always worked as free car shakedown sessions, the stupid things that were dogdy can shit now without wasting $600 buck entry, 1000 miles of towing and a bunch of motel etc. Somethings shits, we can fix it maybe.

In years past I knew guys that might 'go play' in the woods for a few years shaking the car down, improving it so everything worked, learning the timing system (and usually that was done by going out as a co-driver with me on an event or 2) and when they were ready, then they would go down to an event knowing that they could have some fun, rather than frustration followed by fubar.

So really, since I have no idea, why is getting out on the stages so vital?


>
> -----------------------------
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:

> Can't you accept that somebody may the fuck not agree with you.

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

I was simply showing, by real world example, that not all used rally cars are being sold because they are pieces of shit that don't 'do the trick' for someone any more. This was to counter your position that buying an already prepared car is only buying shit that someone else knows better than to want hanging around any more.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

12xalt Wrote:

... get their titties all tight over
> it,


Excellent! now I have a new favorite phrase.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2009 12:17PM by alkun.

Morison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
>
> > Can't you accept that somebody may the fuck
> not agree with you.
>
> Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle
> black.

No numbnuts, YOU choose to read things with the worst possible intent, you are the epitome of the nerd type who TRIES to find ways to criticise.
Indeed, many people who we know in common have said, what the fuck is it with Kieth, he's a nice guy....usually.
>
> I was simply showing, by real world example, that
> not all used rally cars are being sold because
> they are pieces of shit that don't 'do the trick'
> for someone any more. This was to counter your
> position that buying an already prepared car is
> only buying shit that someone else knows better
> than to want hanging around any more.

Man you go to such absurd lengths trying to prove a throw away comment is WRONG
You remind me of the fucking "Something is wrong on the Inter-net" thing.

I think I did say something to the effect "the last several cars that I've seen locals get" or at least strongly implied it.

Stupid subtleties to argue, stupid.




The bigger question is RETENTION of "customers" or PEOPLE, cost containment, and finding a way to institute a graduated level of prep so more people can do this sport longer.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

alkun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 12xalt Wrote:
>
> ... get their titties all tight over
> > it,
>
>
> Excellent! now I have a new favorite phrase.
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at Nov 18, 2009 by
> alkun.


it's all new too, it just materialized out of my fingers, lol

Was a good thread until the pissing matches started, KNOCK IT OFF !

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

I've always felt getting on stage quick gets people hooked.
But building a car properly is so necessary for all the reasons John states. Events are going to cost into the thousands so having stuff sorted is key to having a good event. DNF due to crash or mistake is way better feeling than DNF due to some stupid mechanical failure that could have been resolved before.

---

Grant Hughes

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was a good thread until the pissing matches
> started, KNOCK IT OFF !
>
> As always IMHO
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850


yup

until then I had actually been reading everything, then I had to start skimming, then skipping *sigh*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2009 12:55PM by 12xalt.

I bought my first rally car and I built my second one in less than two months. I sold my car because I wanted to change platforms. The car I sold was reliable and had a good finish history, I just wanted a newer platform and the insurance check from a hail storm went a long way toward paying for the cage. I would rather race an imperfect car than sit around waiting to build the perfect one.

I agree with Gene that this is a silly argument. I like building cars as much as the next person. There are people who like racing who are not good fabricators or great mechanics. Having rallied before helped my prioritize what I did to the focus when I built it. Something things that I thought were absolute must haves before I started racing became an insignificant waste of money once I started racing.

The biggest obstacle that keeps me from rallying more is money. To keep my wife happy I have a fixed rally budget, so when that checking account is out of money I don't go rallying. When it has money I do.

Every person should figure out the buy build choice for themselves. I have done both and will likely do both again. There is no rule written in stone - the opportunity and circumstances are different each and every time.

I bought my first rally car to drive on the street with no plan to rally it at all, it was just a fun GTX street car - with a cage and stuff. I bought my next rally car because it was cheap - very cheap and I wanted to drive a rally that was coming up in 4 weeks. I gave that car away when I was done with it - it was basically a rental fee. I built my next car because I had gathered up a lot of good parts and knew where more good parts were, so I had this big pile of very nice bits laying around so it made since to put them into a car.

Right now I see the best value for what I like to do in rally would be to buy Carl Jardivalls old Volvo, not because I lack skills or time to build but because it is the best value by far for a RWD Gp5 car, it has all the good bits that would cost me 3 time as much to buy and put into a fresh build. Even if I put them all into a new shell build from scratch it would still be the way to go, we all are buyers at some level just sometimes it is a full turn key car other times it is a full gearbox or motor that are ready to bolt in.

OK that is all I can say today - had a new ACL put in my knee a few hrs ago and the drugs are staring to kick in - I go sleep now.

---

In the long run reality always wins.