john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe.
> But lookie Shen, and Hi again by the way, been a
> while since you've posted,
> (and this is all PNW experience and not suggesting
> it applies anywhere else)
> Back when we could get a 510 or a Maz-dog or a
> Opel or a Saab for 150 buck, bolt in a Saftey
> Devices cage in, slap on faily good shocks/inserts
> for $65 a corner and tow or drive 65 miles to a
> Divisional and pay $75 for 85 stage miles, way
> back then we could wing it a lot more on
> everything, and then sketchy wiring, dodgy
> clutch, un-reinforced shell, crappy seats etc
> weren't such a big deal.

Hi John, yeah, I visit once in a while but hadn't been feeling the rally fever in a while.

> But with cheap entries now 450-600, events 8+
> hours to tow, the time off and motels "needed" for
> 3-4 days so people can play like what the watch on
> TV, the whole total investment so expensive, that
> it does mean that people should have their junk
> way more ship shape before they piss away all
> those othe costs with some dodgy POS dog car and
> maybe a DNF on the first stage or second as we've
> seen many people do even when they have lots of
> experience.
> How much more frustrating would it be for Team
> Newbz to not really get to "learn" anything
> because of a crap car that pukes early on?

That does make sense, but I'm just saying that for me personally and my specific circumstances, I would probably lean toward buying a pre-built car and try to make it work, and then possibly build a more perfect car as I went along.
>
> Since I've liked your commentary in the past, you
> maybe tell me what's so pressing about "getting
> out on stages quickly for the first time"?
>
> I've never understood that.

Thanks man. I like your commentary too, except when you really go off on people.

I'll use myself as an example to explain this mindset of getting out on the stages as quickly as possible. I got hooked on rally around 1999, bought a street Rabbit GTI (in the Bay area and drove it back to Phoenix, AZ, where I was living at the time) which I intended to build. But the reality set in eventually that I didn't really have the space, money, time, tools, or knowledge to build a rally car. I sold that car about a year or two later, after moving to California. Not having had enough, I bought a street Volvo 242, and gave it more of a try. I got a set of tools, did some basic work on the car, just to learn to work on cars with the basics before diving into heavy building. Eventually I realized that I had the same limitations as before: space, time, money, (more) tools, and (more) knowledge. I later sold that car too, and haven't tried the same thing again.

Now, if I had the space for a rally car again (which I don't right now), I would still be limited on time (work and school), and money, and knowledge. If I had the space and money and wanted to go rallying, I would probably at this point just buy a car and go out rallying for the fun.

I guess the equation boils down to this for me: Getting out there now, even with the possibility of mechanical DNFs (which building probably wouldn't eliminate) is more rewarding than spending years building a car while being unable to rally. Even with the high entry costs, I could still go to rally crosses and do SOMETHING.

>
> I have always suggested that unless somebody has a
> lot of moto-cross or enduro experience, and I mean
> 10 years or so of active riding, that they should
> go out with some of the older/more experience guys
> and practice the basics.
> I call it "doing the scales" as in piano practice:
> simple full throttle straight acceleration, simple
> max braking straight ahead, learning to look at
> roads with an open set of eyes (looking for the
> crown of the road, looking at sight lines, looking
> far enough ahead, back to braking straight ahead,
> and eventually brake and initiate to get the
> timing of brake/initiate down and where they
> should do it.
>
> This has always worked as free car shakedown
> sessions, the stupid things that were dogdy can
> shit now without wasting $600 buck entry, 1000
> miles of towing and a bunch of motel etc.
> Somethings shits, we can fix it maybe.
>
> In years past I knew guys that might 'go play' in
> the woods for a few years shaking the car down,
> improving it so everything worked, learning the
> timing system (and usually that was done by going
> out as a co-driver with me on an event or 2) and
> when they were ready, then they would go down to
> an event knowing that they could have some fun,
> rather than frustration followed by fubar.
>
> So really, since I have no idea, why is getting
> out on the stages so vital?
>

This is actually not a bad plan, and is something to definitely be considered. I guess in the end it's not that getting out on the stages is so vital, it's just being able to do something fun with the car that's vital. Building can be fun in its own right, but it's not the same thing as actually driving the car for fun. Also, for some people, they just don't have the right circumstances that facilitate building a rally car. Time constraints can be a major limiting factor to building plans.

I don't know man, I'm still trying to figure this stuff all out, 10 years later.
I've actually considered co-driving for a long time, but then I see that a suit is $600 (I unfortunately would need a Sparco, because I'm so damn tall and skinny), a helmet $300-$400, and now a HANS, what, $1000? Probably a seat too, because of my unique size. $$$ Yikes... maybe I'm just a cheapskate, or poor, or both.

---

-----------------------------
http://www.max-attack.com

LOL, that's a great quote, Grant: "I'd probably rally more if I wasn't so busy drinking and bowling and banging."

---

-----------------------------
http://www.max-attack.com

heymagic Wrote:
---
>
> JVL is talkinmg early 80's. And you are totally
> right,imo, that when adjusted for inflation rally
> is no more expensive nowadays. The real difference
> is now we have the internet which allows people to
> vent more or get stirred up more. just a hunch...
>
>

If memory serves me correctly in '94 we paid $250-$375 for entry fees into national events, regular pump gas for service vehicle was $1.25 per gallon, race gas $4 per gallon. Flights for crew to get to events averaged for the year $350 RT per flight and hotels rooms ran $35-$120 per night depending on event. New Michelin Rally tires cost $125 or $135 delivered (which was big bucks but a real rally tire) ... Most of these prices were considered expensive at the time.

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> ---
> >
> > JVL is talkinmg early 80's. And you are
> totally
> > right,imo, that when adjusted for inflation
> rally
> > is no more expensive nowadays. The real
> difference
> > is now we have the internet which allows
> people to
> > vent more or get stirred up more. just a
> hunch...
> >
> >
>
> If memory serves me correctly in '94 we paid
> $250-$375 for entry fees into national events,
> regular pump gas for service vehicle was $1.25 per
> gallon, race gas $4 per gallon. Flights for crew
> to get to events averaged for the year $350 RT per
> flight and hotels rooms ran $35-$120 per night
> depending on event. New Michelin Rally tires cost
> $125 or $135 delivered (which was big bucks but a
> real rally tire) ... Most of these prices were
> considered expensive at the time.
>
>
> As always IMHO
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850

Ya, I about crapped the first time I saw Michelin prices..but after running some they were actually a bargain.

When we quit in '93 the prices were getting up there. Mostly because of the SCCA sanctions and insurance. That was before the road use fees entered the scene and really screwed the pooch.

Back then it was costing about $6k a year to run the regionals and a couple nationals, excluding the cost of the car. I could see the prices rising and was tired of dealing with Foresprings BS. Hamms beer changed distributorships and the new guy liked stock cars not rally cars. Lost that little bit of money. Johns River Lodge changed hands and there went the entry fee monies. So $6k net income is really about $9k gross income. Buys a pretty nice boat, which is just what we did. I'll always miss the thrill of being slideways, battling Whiting,Qvale and Christiansen and just being on stage at speed.

Now I'm old enough that the blood doesn't burn as much. Being on stage isn't worth the grief to get there. I have the funds and time, not the desire. So I work events and get a fair amout of enjoyment from that. I get to see you, Dave, JVL and a few other old faces and a boat load of new faces. I make it work.

heymagic Wrote:

>
> Now I'm old enough that the blood doesn't burn as
> much. Being on stage isn't worth the grief to get
> there. I have the funds and time, not the desire.
> So I work events and get a fair amout of enjoyment
> from that. I get to see you, Dave, JVL and a few
> other old faces and a boat load of new faces,




and multiple phone calls from confused people


. I
> make it work.
>
>

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

and hugs from me

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now I'm old enough that the blood doesn't burn as
> much. Being on stage isn't worth the grief to get
> there. I have the funds and time, not the desire.

Well I'm not sure if it's an age thing.

I'm turning 35 in december, I have mostly the required funds to finish my rally car in my bank account, could buy the safety gears too, can take the days off work without too much problem.

But I'm not sure I want to spend all this money and time on rallying. I can go to an all included vacation with my gf 3 times for just the cost of the safety gear. For the cage money I can have a 4th trip south to get away from the cold.

Every event will cost about the price of an all included trip to Cuba or Dominican republic... And that's spending time with my gf. Last sprint 8 years ago was enough for her when I didn't stop with only 2 tires still on rims and some big cliff (small for the pacific coast ones, but big around here). Well the 2 front tires where in place, I'm sure none of you would have stop with about 2 miles to go right?

That being said, since I live in the province of Quebec and we have a wonderfull formula for our regional events (1 day event with recce in the morning, race in the afternoon, party in the evening) and quite resonable entry fee (max 450, but mostly 350). So it's still less expensive than in the States, and that makes me think I want to go back in the wood playing.

If it was still like the old days (just 10 years ago) and you could go out without race seats, no hans, no suits, then I'm quite sure my Volvo would be caged and I would have done at least one event (Volvo would probably be pile of steel by my garage too since I don't know how to drive RWD yet lol).

So to me, it's the total investment, before you have to go play in the wood that keeps me from rallying. But not a single day passes by without me wanting to pick up the phone to call my friend André to have him put a roll cage in my car! It's more addictive (even with the mini doses I had) than any drug I know!

---

Francois

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and hugs from me

Ah, those are quite nice btw...but Timm keeps trying to hug me also and he get a little creepy


Back to the build or buy , what JVL may have been alluding to was really old builds. Not so much like we did back in the day, but the actual cars still left rotting away. Most of them weren't overbuilt like todays stuff. The cages would work for a roll or 2. I think I re-shelled on car 3 times for a customer. We didn't have the horsepower available today, nor tires and suspension. Most of the field went a bit slower so less stress in general. On the downside the shells wore out pretty easily. No one used underbody protection so the floors got really abraided. I remember one brand new P car wearing the rear floors out in around a year. This is why I said to take a scrutineer when buying an old car. I had to pull 3 logbooks in the last few years from old cars that needed re-shelled. There are used cars that are just fine and some that will be a disaster, same as new builds.

Herpes lasts forever, rally cars don't. If I build another I'd do it like I used to. Strong cage, plate the strut tops and go. People rallied Volvos without custom 4 links and T-5 trans, Datsuns with the worlds worst gear ratios and little power even ae86 with stock suspension and rear diff can still run up front. Bob Olson ruined 2 very nice WRXs this year. Shit happens. I've seen more than one rally car totaled on it's first or second rally.

Francois Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That being said, since I live in the province of
> Quebec and we have a wonderfull formula for our
> regional events (1 day event with recce in the
> morning, race in the afternoon, party in the
> evening) and quite resonable entry fee (max 450,
> but mostly 350). So it's still less expensive
> than in the States, and that makes me think I want
> to go back in the wood playing.

I really need to get back to learning French. Quebec is where they have the 2WD cup series too, right? And lots of spectators and fans? The whole thing just sounds awesome. I have to at least go up to watch an event.

---

-----------------------------
http://www.max-attack.com

And I've heard rumors about lots of hot female Quebec rally fans.
Toronto has a pretty big movie/tv scene I think.

---

Grant Hughes

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 12xalt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > and hugs from me
>
> Ah, those are quite nice btw...but Timm keeps
> trying to hug me also and he get a little creepy
>

if he'd only put some clothes on first it might be a little less awkward

I used to think I was 'born too late' for good rally stuff...but now I'm thinking I'm glad I got into it when I did....cause its all relative..to me, a $600 suit isn't 'that bad' because, well....that's just the way its been since day 1 for me.

Same with HANS....while it wasn't required for NASA events 2 yrs ago, I knew it was coming down the line and was expecting it.

Considering I've gotten plenty of $300+ speeding tickets for a TINY amount of illegal fun on a public road (or sometimes for just cruising at 80mph on the highway), a $400 entry fee for 40+ miles of 'fawking crazy all out fun' on closed roads with a bunch of other cool people and never worrying about the police, seems like a really good deal to me.


its all relative.

---

Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Shenan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I really need to get back to learning French.
> Quebec is where they have the 2WD cup series too,
> right? And lots of spectators and fans? The whole
> thing just sounds awesome. I have to at least go
> up to watch an event.
>
> -----------------------------
>

Yup, we have the 2wd cups, a production cup and a "limited" gr2 (no sequential gearbox and you can't replace stock parts with composite).


You don't "have" to speak French to compete here. Sure it will help, but almost everyone speaks enough English to understand you. Might help more at the bar though, but for that you just need a few basic lessons and I'm sure you'd be good to go!

And Grant, yes the rumor is true! But we have even better looking non-rally fan girls here!

Montreal also has a pretty big movie/tv scene, but then you would probably need to speak fluently in French to get a job. Unless you could find a cie that deals only with American movies, or at an English tv station.

The only sad part is we don't have a Gr5 class right now... So only the NA Volvo or XR4 can run, and only in Gr2 since Production is for 2.0l or less.

---

Francois



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2009 12:56PM by Francois.

12xalt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> heymagic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 12xalt Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > and hugs from me
> >
> > Ah, those are quite nice btw...but Timm
> keeps
> > trying to hug me also and he get a little
> creepy
> >
>
> if he'd only put some clothes on first it might be
> a little less awkward

Hey now.



No. You have a point.


hahahaha.

And Gene... You're a creepy old man. *shudders*

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

>And I've heard rumors about lots of hot female Quebec rally fans.
>Toronto has a pretty big movie/tv scene I think.

A lot of cuteness up theyah. And it's not just the fans. More stage roads, cheaper entry fees, stronger beer, better organisation, less BS, the list goes on and on.

And the French are very patient with me inability to speak their language.

The Guess Who nailed a million years ago with American Woman.

We should all be up at Tall Pines!!!!!!!!

---

Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net