I want help on a new NASA Rally Sport class: Spec WRX

Here's the new class I want:

2.0 liter WRX with a stock engine and **NO RESTRICTOR** and high octane pump gas
stock gearbox
stock brake calipers
Stock ECU with an approved, controlled flash program.

All the rest of the car is standard open class stuff. The car will run in Open AWD Heavy with all the other turbo open AWD cars (until we get like 10 more more at each rally, then we can put them in their own class if people want).

Rational:
The old bug eyes are getting pretty available now. Lots of people want to run a turbo AWD car. But putting a restrictor in them, then going through all the hassle and expense of tuning them, just to get back to the power level you had originally, only with a crappier power band, is silly, expensive, and a pain in the ass. But... no restrictor opens a mess of either cheating or blowing up transmissions. So, you need a stock ECU. Well that's a pain too... unless all the ECUs are the same already... which I believe you have (to a good enough degree) with several years of the WRX.

So, I need three things:
1) I need research on exactly which years/models have ECUs that are so compatible that they will run on the same flash. Also research on all the available flashing/programming methods available as far as security/verifiability.

2) I need a "NASA Rally Sport Spec WRX" flash made or chosen. The flash will assume a stock engine with all stock components and a "sport exhaust", and will be a "plus one" or "sport tune".

3) I need a mobile device that can attach to the cars in the field (say, just before or after a stage) to verify the flash. I'm perfectly happy with having the tuner that donates/maintains this hardware and a spare ECU becoming the official supplier of the flash program for the competitors that want to run this class.

To preempt certain discussions:
Question: Could you cheat? Could you hide an ecu programmer under your seat, get it out 10 seconds before you start, program the ecu, then reprogram it back between the flying finish and the stop control? Answer: Cheaters suck. If you want to cheat, go somewhere else. Everyone else will be hanging out here at NASA and having fun with their friends who don't cheat.

Question: How about an STi gearbox, brake upgrades, blah blah blah... Answer: Sure, go ahead. In the other open class. This class is "Cage it. Flash it. Race."

Question: Why aren't you also doing a program for the EVOs? Why don't you get a flash with the same torque/weight ratio and have the same kind of deal for them? Answer: Great idea! Make it happen after you get this straightened out.

Question: Why don't you do the same thing for (other turbo car)? Answer: it's all about critical mass. Put your effort first where it will see the most reward. Can't fix the whole world at once.

Question: How will you guarantee that all the ECUs are really the same? Answer: There are a couple of solutions I can imagine, the simplest being everyone in the class shows up at tech at the same time, pulls their ecu, and we hand them back out in random order. NRS has a spare if one mysteriously dies.

My phone number is 919.697.5282. If you want to work on this project, call me.

Cheers!
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2009 12:45PM by Anders Green.

Pump gas?
Stock intercooler hoses? They blow past 19psi boost I am told.

My 2 cents. Upgrades cost money. Stock tranny. Stock brakes. And i get to go OJ on the whiners.

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

tedm Wrote:
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> Pump gas?
> Stock intercooler hoses? They blow past 19psi
> boost I am told.
>
> My 2 cents. Upgrades cost money. Stock tranny.
> Stock brakes. And i get to go OJ on the whiners.


PUMP gas!

Anders, call. Australia Fede' CAMS did a test of stock 2,0 Sub-a-rat whatver the fuck they call them wrx sti what the fuck, 2,0 on gas vs "ultimate spec on
control" gas but with the fuckin restrictors. Prliminary results were they were about the same times and speeds on stages.

In a continent with virtually ZERO Euro entries it is one of the stupidest things around to go with these idiotic 32mm and 34mm restrictors.

We don't do some of the smart stuff the euros do but we pick up on the stupidest.
Fawkin brilliant.


Good luck with your idea, sounds smart, so it'll probably be argued to death 8(

>
>
>
>
> Ted Mendham
> www.rensport.net

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

What about a control mechanical BOV that gets randomly assigned in the same way as your ECU?

Yeah, pump gas. Tune for 91/92/93. We're talking about a stock engine. Race gas would be silly.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Just had a phone call question. To clarify, this is for GD WRXs of 2002-200x whatever the compatible ECU range is. It's not for swapping those same drive trains into GC cars or anything like that.

Ted: not worried about the hose bursting now. When steps 1-3 are done, that issue can be looked at. But seems like something that would be investigated. But I'm only imagining running maybe 2psi over stock. Cage. Flash. Race.

Tim: not worried about the BOV now. When steps 1-3 are done, that issue can be looked at. If the boost couldn't be adequately controlled via the ECU, than your idea could solve that.

Cheers,
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

you can use the GD chassis RS caliper brackets on the 02-03 WRX calipers and then you are good to run 15 inch wheels.

I think you need to limit it to 02-05 becuase of engine and brakes upgrades that Subaru did...

I seem to remember (read this as BS until confirmed) that the '02 map was more aggressive than the following years...

You want to add *another* class?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

No. I am creating a car definition to run within an existing class. The difference is subtle.

I'm not trying to split existing competitors into smaller groups in an attempt to imagine some sort of parity.

I'm trying to make a way for people to build rally cars in a simple, straightforward way so they can stop messing around in the garage and go racing instead.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2009 02:57PM by Anders Green.

I pretty much built and ran what you are talking about in PGT (2002 wrx sedan). Except that I had to run a restricter.

Daniel, I didn't swap caliper brackets to fit 15" wheels on. That would be illegal in PGT ;-)

The 2004 models are drive by wire, I think. 2002 and 2003 have throttle cables. I had a couple, but they kept hitting walls and trees. The wife drives a 2004. Noncompatible ecu, I think. 2002 and 2003 ecus interchange, at least they did for me. Slight differences but one will run in the other.

I think this horse (spec-wrx) had been beat to death years ago, but let the beatings continue. I like the idea, which pretty much dooms it. ;-)

Could be cheaper to run than SP or PGT. But people need to adopt the belief that winning rallys is more about the motivation and skill of the driver and less about the level of developement of the car.

Why not come up with a spec gravel tire, too. DOT snow tires? Yeah, the ditch hookers will blow some. Tough. Hard compound Hankook rally tires? Or Michelin or Pirelli gravel tires have to be at least 50% used up. Less traction equals more excitement, too. Less traction also will produce less stage road damage.

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

everything else is moot unless you know you can get the 'restrictor' rule reversed....so, do you have that kind of pull? is that a realistic goal?


the 2nd biggest issue is a tune for basic/popular mods....is this 'standard class tune' for stock exhaust or for 3" turbo back ehaust w/bellmouth down pipe? stock uppipe or aftermarket uppipe? with the WRX, these mods have a dramatic effect on HP output...and if you have a tune for one setup, but are running another, that's not the best way to race the car.




offtopic...anyone ever notice that 'restrictor' isn't an actual word? or, well...at least my spell check hates it.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No. I am creating a car definition to run within
> an existing class. The difference is subtle.
>
> I'm not trying to split existing competitors into
> smaller groups in an attempt to imagine some sort
> of parity.
>
> I'm trying to make a way for people to build rally
> cars in a simple, straightforward way so they can
> stop messing around in the garage and go racing
> instead.
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0
>
>
>
> Edited 2 times. Last edit at Nov 25, 2009 by
> Anders Green.


I don't quite get how that works?

So you'd have un restricted cars running with restricted cars? I guess I'm confused as to how its a different set of rules, in the same class.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Anders Green Wrote:
> Ted: not worried about the hose bursting now. When
> steps 1-3 are done, that issue can be looked at.
> But seems like something that would be
> investigated. But I'm only imagining running maybe
> 2psi over stock. Cage. Flash. Race.
>

The stock intercooler hose will blow at stock boost on a stock engine. It is molded plastic and the heat makes it split open at the seam and burst.

Jon Burke Wrote:
> everything else is moot unless you know you can
> get the 'restrictor' rule reversed....so, do you
> have that kind of pull? is that a realistic goal?

Ha! Uh, yes, I have that kind of pull. It's done. This isn't a philosophical exorcise or a thought experiment. This is a "someone start calling tuning shops and doing research".

Jon Burke Wrote:
> the 2nd biggest issue is a tune for basic/popular mods

That is not a big issue. You can mod the crap out of the car... in some other class. Here, you get a cat-back exhaust and a ECU reflash and all the development for the car is done.


Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> So you'd have un restricted cars running with
> restricted cars?

Yes.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
> I guess I'm confused as to how
> its a different set of rules, in the same class.

All the "normal" open class cars are horsepower limited by their restrictor, whose size is spec'd by the sanctioning body.

All the cars in this "sub-class" or "spec" are horsepower limited by their ECU, whose tune is spec'd by the sanctioning body.

The end result (for this particular car model) is tuned to be about the same.

Ted wrote:
>Why not come up with a spec gravel tire, too....
This idea isn't trying to solve that problem. I have different ideas for that. This is "Who wants to go rally without a restrictor, raise your hand! Ok, take this ECU, and go do it."

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.