I want help on a new NASA Rally Sport class: Spec WRX

heymagic Wrote:
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> You're slightly wrong, the main issue is
> enforcement.
> The bottom line is there is no way to police the
> "stock equation" on a regional or national level
> without great expense and manpower. That is the
> whole thing wrong with the proposal. You are still
> talking having to get a ECU reflashed and some
> mods for a very vehicle specifc minimal interest
> class..in the name of economics. Want to race
> cheap?Get a cheap car. Pretty simple.

Maybe we should question , "would a stock, even reflashed ECU, big exhaust WRX, with stock gearing and brakes be faster or slower then our open class cars currently are?"

This is the issue IMO ... It's not whether this or that is within the rules, the reason for intake air restrictors is to slow the cars. This was discussed earlier in this thread. If a stock car or a car within these rules is slower then open class cars with air intake restrictor then why should there be a stink? On the other hand if they're faster ...

I myself could care less about such a class at this point in time, rather I'd like to see more events for our cars to be used!

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As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

If a reflashed ecu is a liability due to the map possibly melting engines then why even reflash them?
If you're running stock intake, stock engine, stock turbo, stock downpipe, do you even need a reflash? Maybe for optimum hp numbers, but why bother for a spec class? Seems like an extra cost that could be cut out, especially if the idea of the class is a cost savings compared to building a restrictor motor.

If a non-restricted car is safe enough to drive around on the streets (legality and liability-wise) then why not on stage if everything connected to making HP is stock? Do car companies get sued over fast cars killing people? Probably, but it must not be a losing battle because they keep making faster and faster cars.

Maybe everyone entered in the class has to donate an ecu to the pool. Then those are checked, marked, and kept by the sanctioning body to be distributed randomly at rallies (and collected again afterwords.) This would only work with some sort of consistent competitor base over the course of the year, and that does add an additional cost to the competitors of having to buy an extra ecu to make the car mobile between events. Ecus could be returned to the competitors at the end of the season, and then the people who want to run again the next year send them back in to repeat the process for the next season. This would eliminate the need to have to check every ecu at each event.

Ops..Sorry ........ Next page for my rant...I hate PC,s..

David

Hazardous Toys inc






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2009 06:11PM by Haztoys.

randyzimmer Wrote:
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> frumby Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> ...Randy likes the NA subies for newbs ...
>
> Actually, I hate turbos and wish they were all
> banned.
> but that is just me and I realize there are other
> opinions.
> If Anders wants to do something he thinks is
> worthwhile, that's OK.
>

Anarchy .........?.. Mr RZ .....Sir. I"ve got the match to lights that one off if you need any help.. My Friend.

David

Hazardous Toys inc






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2009 06:12PM by Haztoys.

Haztoys Wrote:
> Anarchy .........?.. Mr RZ .....Sir. I"ve got the
> match to lights that one off if you need any
> help.. My Friend.
>
Hi David,
Translation/explanation?

How about WRXs with the turbo taken off?
That'd be cheaper and the 5-speed would thank you.
Tires would last a season - so would the brakes!

Sorry on that Randy ...

Just not a turbo or AWD fan ... And was try to say I understand your feelings on turbos...

This thing thats done in racing now ..We try to speed up cars then slow them down ...Now we are taking fast car and slowing them down ..It adds to the cost of racing ..It makes the car owner "dig" for horse power ...Dig right down to the bank..I've often wondered if a JDM non-turbo motored WRX /EVO class would help cost ..(The motors that they cut out of cars in Japan..And mail to us for a $1K with 50.000 miles ).. You sell your WRX turbo motor and make money .. You now have a low mile motor and alittle money for shocks ... Get that grumpy shock wizard out in the PNW to kick out a plane jane shock run at a good price...He will be happy to I'm sure ...Just thinking out loud or out my ass...LOL..

Just dont under stand the need for the awd or turbos ...You all can have them ..To each there own ...Most we get going any faster and hit a tree... ?..We just need more down hill stages...lol,, Down hill stage winners show who's the man of the family ..We all know that anyways... Right...

Now back to what you all were doing ... Nice read on what your all saying .. AWD's not my sand box to play in ... I should of not been a wise ass and butted in..I must lol on AWD race cars ..I have a really bad ass 91 DSM recce car now almost done .. At one point it was a caged rally car amost done ..But it came to me .."Why am I going AWD I dont need this and can't do it..Have the driving skillz have the tools and know how to make a AWD car go like no other...But dont have the money .." ...


I guess I'm just really getting into the driving seat time of the car/racing/rally car life style as I get older ...LOL...




Have a good

David

Hazardous Toys inc



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2009 05:07AM by Haztoys.

David,
Sorry to hear your DSM isn't easy to run in 4wd.
We "blue car" guys have it easy, just add gas, turn key, go.

A downhill Pikes Peak would be worth towing to.
Let me know when it is!

randyzimmer Wrote:
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> David,
> Sorry to hear your DSM isn't easy to run in 4wd.
> We "blue car" guys have it easy, just add gas,
> turn key, go.
>
> A downhill Pikes Peak would be worth towing to.
> Let me know when it is!
>

'I' dont have a problem making a DSM car run..lol ...Some do or most do..lol..Its just pistons cranks and gas and oil... Same as team blue ..Just the higher over all cost that a AWD car adds to the game is what I was getting at ...

Pikes Peak down hill.... Now that would say who the crazys are .. Maybe have the motors off..?? .. They eat brakes going up hill let alone down at that hill..lol..





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2009 09:27AM by Haztoys.

That would be too dangerous downhill. Just on a braking stadpoint, half the field would lose the pedal within 1 or 2 miles, and then anything but top notch calipers and discs would just literally catch fire!

Anders,

Can't think of what I could do to help, but I'm in, 3 hr/week?

I think what I see that may be lost in all the technical discussion is, not the cost, not the faster/ slower, not the wisdom of this ecu or that tranny, It's the midset of the new entrant. You might be 100% correct that a wrx isn't the cheepest or easiest way to get into rally or more importaintly sustain a rally effort. That isn't the point(I think, maybe).

Put yourself in the shoes of a youngish (mid 20's?) car guy. You might know nothing about rally. You catch a vid or 2, read or talk to some folks online.
"real cars, real roads, real fast!" Sound very apealing! I'm in!!!

Drive a GTI? NO prob, Cage it and go. Drive a Mustang? Same deal. Stroker motor in said Mustang? Sure, come on out! 300hp civic? Welcome!! Wrx? Oh, well yeah, about that... We know you've driven this car since you were 17, but we are sure you will kill yourself if you don't slap this choker on it.

Gut reaction, right or wrong, is "Screw that! I'll just steet race in school zones and take my car to the local strip where they have a clue".

Cosworth Wrote:
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> That would be too dangerous downhill. Just on a
> braking stadpoint, half the field would lose the
> pedal within 1 or 2 miles, and then anything but
> top notch calipers and discs would just literally
> catch fire!

On tire testing days, where cars are paying thousands for extra days of practice before the event, coming back down the hill is almost as quick as going up. I fell asleep once on upper mountain and was woken up from the G's as we came through bottomless pit at around 90-100. The camber on that one is better downhill so you can actually go faster than the normal direction. Had a half spin in the W's on downhill once too. Stupid.

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Grant Hughes

A truly stock WRX is not all that much fun and certainly short on power.

A WRX is a poor choice of focus (snicker) for a beginners class.

Whether or not a stock WRX is too fast or too slow is secondary to the issues of policing the requirements. So one day Billy Jo Bob really hauls ass. Now everyone wonders if he is cheating. Now what? Tear down? Suppose he does cheat and is fast and does make a mistake. Say blasts a rock like Bob did only the spectators aren't lucky? Think about that. The ensuing lawsuits, the fact that for some reason 'we" allowed a turbo car to run without a restrictor (the accepted if unloved world standard). Even if the lack of restrictor had no real hand in the matter the ambulance chasers would make it the centerpiece of their claims.

If the concern is beginner's expenses the WRX is laughable as an entry level car. A turbo AWD is hardly the best platform for a budget build. If it had to be a Open class budget turbo car then the Talons would be a much more affordable option, still silly but affordable.

Any solution to the dreaded restrictor that cannot be fairly applied to all entries in Open class will do nothing more than alienate the rest of the competitors.

Stating that this wouldn't be another class seems a bit odd. In reality it is another class that soon they would be crying about not being able to compete and need their own trophy. We have too many classes as is.

If a turbo car is actually too expensive to add a simple tune and restrictor then go NA. Lots of 2.0, 2.2 and 2.5 NA cars around. RZ somehow survives, Steve Greer manages.

I know exactly what was done to Malcolm Davies Talon and he runs at the front of the regional pack. Simply a clean well thought build. No big dollar tricks. I don't believe Brian Svedin has any tricks up the sleeve of his Impreza either. I'm really pretty sure Jay was competitve in his GTX without spending a bazillion dollars modding his engine internals.

A lot of effort to maybe get a couple more temprary entries from someone whinning it costs too much to run their WRX in rally.


You can be competitive at a regional level with a pretty stock car and a restrictor. You just actually have to know how to drive.

There will always be someone complaining about expense. There will always be someone with enough money to offset much of their missing talent. We will always find someone in the field to race against. Maybe a friend and you enjoy the battle and ensuing trash talk and comraderie or maybe it'll be the guy who always bitches and whines and tattles and you take a different satisfaction beating him.

As an alternative to coddling a few "maybe" competitors lets find viable solutions to help the the guys already in the trenches.

Gene, is it about restrictors or slowing the car, I'm seeing gray.

I have to say your arguments make me think of the old statement: We'll if everybody else jumps off a cliff would you too?", that is exactly what you are saying regarding air inlet restrictors. "It easy to police and it's established", that point makes it sound like regardless of speed, speed or rather power output was the idea of inlet air restriction ...

And there is no such thing as a simple map to retune for restrictors. What there is, is time on the Dyno at $100 a hour chasing the peaks and valleys and trying different little changes to exhaust, air box, etc....

I hear what you say regarding Lawyers, and it doesn't seem to matter if someone wants to sue anymore or not ...

I'll restate it here: We need more events, and to lower event costs not more classes with no events to run. IF there were more events there would be less BSing here because we'd be busy thrashing and repairing with big smiles on our faces!

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As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Randy wrote:

"How about WRXs with the turbo taken off?
That'd be cheaper and the 5-speed would thank you.
Tires would last a season - so would the brakes!"

I've had the turbo go South on my WRX a few times. Made me wish for my old Sentra.
Of course that was a wrx that still had a (non-spinning) turbo and restrictor in the intake path and probably a non-spinning impeller restricting the exhast, too. Man, that was a bitter pill. Talk about hoping for a downhill.

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Ted Mendham
www.rensport.net

bknblk2 Wrote:
> I think what I see that may be lost in all the
> technical discussion is, not the cost, not the
> faster/ slower, not the wisdom of this ecu or that
> tranny, It's the midset of the new entrant. You
> might be 100% correct that a wrx isn't the
> cheepest or easiest way to get into rally or more
> importaintly sustain a rally effort. That isn't
> the point(I think, maybe).

Ding ding ding ding!

I know what cars people "should" start in. I know what cars and driving experiences lead one to learning the appropriate skills to build toward podium finishes. So do lots of people on this forum. And all of that has nothing to do with what cars people WANT to start in.

I think it's great that you've volunteered to help, thanks! (For others watching, it's not the first time either, he volunteered at RTN this year too) Give me a call next week 919-697-5282 and we'll talk more.

Thanks again for the help.

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.