So I've got this Peltor G90 helmet, and everywhere I look, it's listed as an FIA/BSI helmet. The only marking on the helmet itself is a label on the outside that says "certified to british standard 197334 blah blah blah"

Now, I'm guessing the BSI and FIA standards are probably interchangable and FIA probably recognizes BSI, but "probably" doesn't fly with LeMons insurance company, so I can't use the helmet (they used to require Snell, but they're finally recognizing FIA).

Anybody know where I can find some official looking document saying BSI means FIA or something to that effect?

-Dave

Have you talked to the highest up before you get into insurance companies? I talked to one at a drift event because of the possibility of someone using a peltor, and nicely explained that they were used all over the world in crashing and rolling rally cars, so that should be proof enough for using it at a drift event. He agreed and let them run.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

British Standard is not the same as FIA, Snell is not the same as FIA. Both BS and Snell rate or certify much more than just auto helmets. BSI applies to motorcycles, work place hard hats and so on. What is the exact BSI numbers?

The helmet is rated BS6658-85 type A/FR

I did just find that SCCA finally recognizes this rating, so that might help with LeMons. I'm waiting to see if that's enough to convince their insurance.

-Dave

eyesoreracing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The helmet is rated BS6658-85 type A/FR
>
> I did just find that SCCA finally recognizes this
> rating, so that might help with LeMons. I'm
> waiting to see if that's enough to convince their
> insurance.
>
> -Dave

The A/FR is the current code for motorsports and fire retardent material. That helmet is accepted by RA and NASA as well as meeting FIA standards. You can copy the FIA/RA/NASA/SCCA helmet regs and present that.


We just had that problem at a local road race school. The guy doing tech was really not qualified. Problem is most road racers don't use Peltor helmets. Simpson and Bell are the helmet of choice for good ol' boys everywhere.

Dazed_Driver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you talked to the highest up before you get
> into insurance companies? I talked to one at a
> drift event because of the possibility of someone
> using a peltor, and nicely explained that they
> were used all over the world in crashing and
> rolling rally cars, so that should be proof enough
> for using it at a drift event. He agreed and let
> them run.
>
> Feisty Peacock?
>
>


This logic worked for the first one or two races. Then it got to be serious business. 100+ teams per race, 20+ races per year. Too much on the line. Its easier if I give the highest up something he can take to his insurance company so a Peltor doesn't have to be an exception.

Waiting to hear back if the SCCA rulebook is at all convincing.

-Dave

i had this exact problem when i was going to drive on our chumpcar team. I talked to the organizers and they said SA2005 or nothing. sucks i need to buy another helmet for crap can racing, even though my BSI spec rally helmet is full face.

Here's the latest word from Jay Lamm:

"Finally, regarding the Peltor, you're just fucked. It's not a matter of equivalency or anything else--it's a matter of what the agreement between us and the insurers says in black and white. The words on the page list the FIA and SFI spec, but not the BS(etc). I can suggest an update to the agreement when we go to renew it next year (I think the term ends in late April, something like that).

All that said, you've got to remember, there's no upside for them (or us) to open up a regulation, and lots of potential downside: Nobody wants to be the first guy to have to defend a decision from inside a witness box. Whether that decision had merit or not is, unfortunately, extremely far down on the list of considerations when you're in that position. Having SCCA recognize it certainly helps, but it's hardly definitive. In any case, please do forward that section so I can print it out and put it in the "insurance renewal 2010/2011" file. And yes, I regret to say that I do have files with names like that now...."

I've already given him the SCCA GCR that lists the british spec. If anybody knows of anything else that might help set a prescedent, let me know and I'll put it in Jay's file.

-Dave

Don't know if this will help your particular situation, but NRS rules:

3.6.21 Helmets
All members of the crews competing in events pursuant to these rules must wear helmets with one of the following ratings:
1. Snell Foundation SA2000 or newer
2. British Standard 6658-85 Type A/FR, including all amendments
3. SFI Spec 31.1 or 31.2

At least it has the words "British Standard" in there.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

At this point you need to realize a couple items:

The insurer doesn't know anything about helmet standards. They didn't set the standards or require anything out of the ordinary for motorsports.

The organizers made the initial mistake, lack of education or awareness.

Organizers are now digging in their heels a bit, but the BSI helmet is not widely used in this country so they risk little by ignoring it. Looks like they are failing to recognoze the acceptance of BSI by most major santioning groups including the FIA. Hard to find the rationale in that one...

Here is the page from the official FIA website..

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/BCACE1331CD69AF8C12575210056F025/$FILE/L25_standards_for_helmets_bis_2.pdf

FIA Liste N° 25
NORMES RECONNUES POUR LES CASQUES
RECOGNISED STANDARDS FOR HELMETS
LISTE TECHNIQUE N° 25 / TECHNICAL LIST N° 25
 FIA 8860-2004
Fédération International de l’Automobile
8, Place de la Concorde
75008 Paris
France
www.fia.com
Etiquette autocollante / Adhesive label
 Snell SA 2005
 Snell SA 2000
Snell Memorial Foundation
3628 Madison Avenue, Suite 11
North Highlands, CA 95660
USA
www.smf.org
Etiquette tissu ou autocollante / Cloth or adhesive label
 SFI 31.1A
 SFI 31.2A
SFI Foundation Inc
15708 Pomerado Road, Suite N208
Poway, CA 92064
USA
www.sfifoundation.com
 BS6658-85 type A/FR
British Standards Institution
389 Chiswick High Road
London W4 4AL
UK
www.bsi-global.com
NOT
VALID
AFTER
31.12.2013
Pour Autocross-division 3 UNIQUEMENT, les normes suivantes sont aussi reconnues:
For Autocross-division 3 ONLY, the following standards are also recognised:
 Snell M 2005
 Snell M 2000
 Snell M 95
Etiquette tissu ou autocollante / Cloth or adhesive label
Prière de se reporter aux exigences suplémentaires concernant l’utilisation des casques à l’Annexe L du Code Sportif International de la FIA.
Please check additional requirements regarding helmets use in the Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code.
01.01.2009 Page 1/1

The FIA accepts BSI, but apparently not after 2013. BSI is has been around for many years longer than SFI.

BSI is somewhat shrouded in mystery if you go online and try to find any info, also they don't list an expiration date which some of us scrutineers have a problem with.


At this point I would guess it is not happening. The Snell 2010 standard helemts should be out any day if not already. '05s will be on sale cheap. Better off upgrading than getting an ulcer.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> At least it has the words "British Standard" in
> there.
>
> Anders

That's exactly the right British Standard, so that helps plenty. thanks!

-Dave

You using an open face peltor? Because you're fuct there too if you are. I had to buy a bell closed face to run at Nelson Ledges. Even though my open face Bell was legal the year before.

IMO, LeMons is becomming too much of a "get away with as much of a cheater car as you can". Was great when people showed up with true $500 beaters. Sure you can get creative, but any smart person can fake all your documents.

I've got a real good idea for a $10,000 car that would be 100% legal, but I don't want to spend all the time and resources building it just to get crashed into by some kid on his first time out on a track.

Jay started out with a nice grassroots racing league, now he's just in it for the money.

No, I have a closed-face helmet. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid.

You're way off base on LeMons being a cheater series, and you proved it yourself with your justification of why you aren't going to build a cheater car. There just isn't any point.

Some people do try to get away with as much cheating as they can, but guess what, it doesn't help them any. Lots of people get caught. Some get penalized for cheating who actually weren't, some get away with it. Fact is, its rare for big cheater cars to win, and when they do win, all they get is 350 lbs of nickels. Big fucking deal.

The point is to go out and have fun. Cheaters are still allowed to race, they're just penalized enough that they can't win. Everyone is just there to have a good time, which seems to be point too many race series (and competitors) have forgotten about.

Out of curiosity, what, exactly, makes you think Jay's just in it for the money now?

-Dave

I guess I'm not saying it's only the money, but there's a reason he's spreading like a plague this year and running some tracks twice in one year. With people like Chump Car and Crap Can Am (I'm not working for the latter, but I did give it the name) coming out, it shows he's got a damn good model for a series. Rent out some track for a 24-48 hour period for not much. Stuff as many people on the track as possible for maximum dollars. He's got about $120,000 CASH in his pocket once the checkered flag drops and before he pays the bills. Add in the $50 license cost to most drivers as well.

My point is, it's losing its "uniqueness" I think as an exclusive event where you build a car and show up to race dressed up like an idiot.

Taking into consideration Gingerman which is scheduled twice this year. It's $5,000 for a 7 hour weekend track day rental but "negotiable" for more time. So he could be getting a deal, but let's say he rents out the track for 48 hours. That's $35,000 for track rental, add another $3000 for whambulance and corner workers and then for shits and giggles $35k in event costs for food, insurance, tents (which I'm sure he's already bought them) truck/trailer and tow gas, flights, cheap hookers, hotels, booze, etc. Still netting ~$50k CASH isn't so bad when you schedule 20+ races a year. Gotta also consider a lot of the work is volunteer anyway so he's not paying anyone. Makes me wish I thought of this idea, I could run 2 races a year and make more money than I do. Running 4 wouldn't be that hard either.

I'd like it if there was something along the lines of a "Veteran LeMons" because it was pretty boring at Nelson Ledges with crappy flag workers, 50% of the field being first time drivers (which is the norm for every event), and the worst full course yellow flags I have seen (probably more due to course and/or workers) from the same idiots going off the course or their same car getting "fixed" and going out for a lap or two to puke it's guts out all over the track again.

Unless he changed it this year, I still find it funny that he doesn't allow open face helmets, but does allow stock seats.

Anyways, I'm probably still showing up to events until our car decides to catch fire since it refuses to die. But I don't really plan on building another one.

/endrant

So because its profitable it's no fun? Because its profitable, Jay is just in it for the money? There are too many races/too many opportunities for you to go race and have fun?

Fuck uniqueness, I want to be able to go have fun as much as possible. I'm doing 5 races this year, maybe 6 (maybe even a LeMons and Cump Car back-to-back two weekends in a row).

He's having so many races because he consistently has to turn away 50% of the people who enter (at least here on the west coast).

I'm totally with you on the yellow flag problem. This is an event-by-even issue that has everything to do with the workers at the track. Thunderhill was terrible the first two years. This year, he shipped in professional corner workers instead of using the guys who come with the track (these guys were flagging petit lemans the weekend before). The result was almost non-stop green flag racing. I'm hoping he'll be doing something similar at each event now.

Also, I have been told his workers are not volunteers (by one of said non-volunteers). Everyone working the event is getting paid.

Personally, I'm thrilled that someone can make a very healthy living providing cheap, fun racing. Wish it was my idea, and I hope all the copycat series don't oversaturate the market and kill the damn thing.

-Dave