Suzuki Swift / Chevy Aveo Rally Cars

I don't quite understand the fascination with the Focus as a FWD rally car. The stock suspension is flimsier than papier mache covered with Reynolds Wrap, and all the ones I've seen around here that would be in the right price range for a rally shell starting point are rusty.

But maybe I'm just grouchy and cynical and biased because I saw my father's Focus street car's rear subframe and entire suspension rust to the point where he couldn't get it inspected. He replaced the entire rear end with the stock parts he saved from his autocross Focus. Six months later the RF control arm rusted through and collapsed at 50 mph and forced the car to make its last trip home on a flatbed.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too many people wouldn't be caught dead in a Neon,
> much less rally one.
> The Focus will likely remain to be a popular FWD
> choice since too many beginners don't think about how bad 2700lbs is, how much power is needed to move 2700 lbs and how limited alternate gears, final driver and differentials worth a damn are until after they get them, and get stomped by older cars---and because the guys that know how limited the cars are can't be bothered to hammer in the messageand then they sitting with a car that just ain't that competitive
>
> The biggest setback to the BMWs is how much all of
> us percieve the common BMW owner to be a total
> douchebag. And John, yeah, you don't need the 300
> hp Group 2 car, but you can get there. The 2.5 V6
> starts around 190 hp, a number that's hard to get
> to without spending a ton of money in a VAG car.
> The 3L starts at 280.

How much TORQUE does the 2.5 V6 make Grant?
Any Beemers have separate bellhousings since 84?
You looked at the struts?
How much travel front and rear?

EVERY BMW I see is lightly built with everything important about 2 steps down in the model line from sizes of stuff I would hope to see.
IE a E30 would be OK with brakes, clutch, box, diff etc from a bigger 5 series maybe, maybe just OK.

They make them to drive down smooooooooooth roads.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I've never understood or been able to justify the popularity of most rally cars.
Most of the BMW stuff looks decent enough to me. Don't know if the bellhousing was seperate or not, appeared to maybe be, but Dave is obsessed with gearing and was saying with the 4.44 final drive diff his top of 5th gear will be around 130 mph and that there was no huge gear drop anywhere. This was a stock box.
Not sure on travel, but rear is the E30 style since it's the Compact, and is semi-trailing arm like the Merkur. So could probably use the same reinforcements as the Merkur, and similarily for struts. Same 6X100 PCD but with M10 instead of M8 bolts on the half shafts so easy upgrades and tons of travel potential in the rear.
The Z3 racks were like 2.4 or 2.6 turn to turn so a quick steering option exists.

There is two things though that the BMW really has going for it.
Availability of diffs and final drives. Easy power. (181 ft lbs in 2.5, 240 in 3.0) Strong aftermarket support in just about everything.

---

Grant Hughes

The golf mk2 might be on it's way out, but all the good bits will pretty much swap over into a newer mk3 shell, which will be readily available at your local pick and pull for another 10 years or so. By then the mk4 models will be cheaper than dirt, and the bigger, stiffer shell, and factory turbo will be welcomed by many. I don't see the north american vw golf rally legacy ending any time soon.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've never understood or been able to justify the
> popularity of most rally cars.
> Most of the BMW stuff looks decent enough to me.

HARUMPH!


> Don't know if the bellhousing was seperate or not,
> appeared to maybe be,

Not since about 84.



but Dave is obsessed with
> gearing and was saying with the 4.44 final drive
> diff his top of 5th gear will be around 130 mph
> and that there was no huge gear drop anywhere.
> This was a stock box.


The Krauts have a dilemna: people start in the 'burbs, putter down narrow streets with 40/50 km limit ENFORCED externally by the famous Pay ON the Spot or Park it cops, and internally by the Cop that lives inside the head of every Lutheran----and their brethren who live in Lutheran dominated societies.
In other words they have to be able to putter to where they are really intended to be used.
THEN they need to have sky high gearing to be able to cruise for hours at 200 km/hr+
So they use insane low low gears like 3.97 or even 4.2 FIRST, maybe 1:1 or .87 TOP and combine that with very high axle ratios like 2.87.
It's just the opposite in BOTH axle and final drive from what we want.

Stick in a 4.44 diff ratio and 1st is absurdly short, like 2 car lengths maybe, and probably even 2nd is short.

And do this: go price a 4.44 BMW gear. And Who siad a 4,44 is suitable for a normal aspirated motor with tires 64-65cm tall??? Way high in my book esp thinking how torqueless BMWs always are.

> Not sure on travel, Less than 150mm front

but rear is the E30 style
> since it's the Compact, and is semi-trailing arm
> like the Merkur. So could probably use the same
> reinforcements as the Merkur, and similarily for
> struts.

The struts are fixed in all but absolute late 90s on cars, IE like your Starlet w tube welded into knuckle
Rear have room for maybe MAX 8" travel



Same 6X100 PCD but with M10 instead of M8
> bolts on the half shafts so easy upgrades and tons
> of travel potential in the rear.
.
The big 5 series diff I have here that has a fat 006 family ZF LSD has a ring gear barely 7"
Small stuff.
You sure there's room?




> The Z3 racks were like 2.4 or 2.6 turn to turn so
> a quick steering option exists.

Yeah that's good.
Too bad you need to buy something extra that sits on your Xratty stock.
>
> There is two things though that the BMW really has
> going for it.
> Availability of diffs and final drives.

But if they're small, we'll break 'em.
And what about ratios like 4.67 , 4.88, or 5.1??

Easy
> power. (181 ft lbs in 2.5, 240 in 3.0) Strong
> aftermarket support in just about everything.

For STREET CARS......
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But if they're small, we'll break 'em.
> And what about ratios like 4.67 , 4.88, or 5.1??

For the record, you can get north of 5:1 ratio crown and pinions for some if not all the beem dif housings..



The catch is they are north of a grand. Like $1300 - 1400 USD.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

Nothing you don't already know but copying as a reminder...

Here's a Finn in a Kraut can.
http://www.tonigardemeister.com/rallyhistory.php

BMW M3 gr.F project:

"Even I'm an international rally driver, I'm also very active rally spectator and supporter in Finnish national rally scene. During international rallies I've has also build a group-F BMW M3 rally car for myself to enjoy in selected Finnish rally events. The debut rally happened in Finnish Rally Championship event at Kouvola in summer 2006. I was fastest group-F driver."
Please find few images from the project:
http://www.tonigardemeister.com/secretfiles.php

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> john vanlandingham Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But if they're small, we'll break 'em.
> > And what about ratios like 4.67 , 4.88, or
> 5.1??
>
> For the record, you can get north of 5:1 ratio
> crown and pinions for some if not all the beem dif
> housings..
>
>
>
> The catch is they are north of a grand. Like
> $1300 - 1400 USD.

Geez only 10 times the cost of a new Toyota one, and 130 to 140 times the excellent take outs I got
>
> Andrew M
> Onterrible
> 30ish

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John: Sorry I missed your calls. Was up in mountains and out of service until 1 am last night.

I won't argue that they are better than the Merkur. But they have aspects that can make them good in my opinion. At least better than most of the other RWD options that is in a newer body style/shell. You know your axle adapters for the Supra diff could also work in a BMW too without too much work.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John: Sorry I missed your calls. Was up in
> mountains and out of service until 1 am last
> night.
>
> I won't argue that they are better than the
> Merkur. But they have aspects that can make them
> good in my opinion. At least better than most of
> the other RWD options that is in a newer body
> style/shell. You know your axle adapters for the
> Supra diff could also work in a BMW too without
> too much work.

Advantages to the BMW:

- I don't see the aftermarket just dropping them
- Much more likely to get some kind of sponsorship
- When you're shooting the shit with joe q public, he will be a lot more likely to think what you're doing is neet, or pretend to anyways
- Less ugly

Disadvantage:

- It will likely end up costing more at the end of the day

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John: Sorry I missed your calls. Was up in
> mountains and out of service until 1 am last
> night.
>
> I won't argue that they are better than the
> Merkur. But they have aspects that can make them
> good in my opinion. At least better than most of
> the other RWD options that is in a newer body
> style/shell. You know your axle adapters for the
> Supra diff could also work in a BMW too without
> too much work.

I died. And its all your fault. But I saw God over at the ping pong tavle and he said now that I'm dead i have all sorts of neat-o super powers, or as he said "Soooper-powers". Writing on forums is easy from up here.

Hey I know there are various shells in the Bitch Moan and Whine line that if had cheap enough, could be made strong enough---we are caging the POS afterall.

I have looked at 80s-90s ones with a critical eye and there are worrying areas with regards simple sizing of stock parts. I haven't looked at what swapping in second hand racks or whole struts---which you gotta with their archaic strut tube welded into the knuckle---if you want a fatter front spindle and the rest sized to accept a decent brake disc.

I also am not convinced the motors are as nice as some want to imagine. I have had a number of guys over the years ask about pistons etc and we've talked about the chronic design elements the Bavarians seem to think neato-torpedo which suck in use or at rebuild time like their fucking aluminum rockers "for less inertia at high revs" which wallow out the IDs, and cost a million bucks each, rockershafts which wear, and have fucked up surfaces which then gall and sieze when you try to press them out--inevitably.


And the sizes (and weight) of their motors means you have to weigh X, if one isn't doing as many and boycotting EA events.

All this said, one can be done but assembling the acceptable parts is nowhere as easy as a Xratty or a 240 Volvo...

The one thing I don't understand is: Whats so important about a newer shell?
(All the while wondering how the Finns keep going so many MkI, MkII Escorts, Starlets and Corollas.....)


>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoCoast Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -
> Advantages to the BMW:
>
> - I don't see the aftermarket just dropping them

Aftermarket for WHAT??

> - Much more likely to get some kind of
> sponsorship


MMuch more likely x 0% chance of x car = what?
People are not im,agining building 04 cars, they're thinking 94 cars---16 years ago.
SIXTEEN years at the latest.


> - When you're shooting the shit with joe q public,
> he will be a lot more likely to think what you're
> doing is neet, or pretend to anyways

HOW could I overlook the inestimable value of impressing a theoreticl unknown person who is likely uninterested and un-caring.

> - Less ugly

MULTIPLES of times more expensive for that slight superficial "advantage".
>
> Disadvantage:
>
> - It will beyond any doubt end up costing significantly more at the end of
> the day




>
> Andrew M
> Onterrible
> 30ish

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Not climbing on the BMW bandwagon but I think the issues with Merkurs are the lack of sales in the states for starters. The cars drove not so good in stock form, the 2.3 had cam issues, the early turbo lacked reliability. There weren't many to start with and the crusher has been busy.

Volvos, lots around, reliable as heck, not so sexy...

Corollas, old, rusty, drifter fodder (price is stupid expensive)

Starlet, none around, low initial sales.

I think the Chinese Olympics and resulting high scrap prices had every old hulk worth several hundred dollars. Lots of stuff got scrapped. Wrecking yards around here crush cars yearly. They don't keep old stuff unless is is Ford and Chebby truck stuff.

I haven't worked on a Merkur or Starlet in 20 years, haven't seen one on the road around here in hearly as long.

Currently the best replacements for somewhat modern RWD seems to be BMW, 240SX or Mustang and possibly RX7. Each have their unique qualities and issues also.

3 series BMWs are really cheap to buy these days. In stock form the cars drive very well. I like the inline motors, not so much the v series. Since you can toss out the POS German elecrical (window motors, door locks, heater contols, dash boards) the remainder is pretty good stuff. I doubt they will be the next holy grail of rally tho.

FWD is overwhelmimgly the most common platform to get. Nearly every manufacture switched to that platform, even Volvo. I think the average ralliy driver will be faster in fwd than rwd. Fast rally drivers seem to excell in FWD, often with little power.

Always seemed to me that AWD needs 50hp more than RWD and RWD needs 50 more than FWD to be competitive with each other, assuming somewhat equal drivers, tires and weights.

This is what I saw. Front struts that bolt to the upright. Spindle is not integrated.

Merkur has all the same electrical bullshit as the BMW that can be removed. The thing the BMW has in it's advantage is that the connectors are ten years newer and they aren't in cars that are notorious for being overheated and run hot. I think I've probably already mentioned it 16 times that the cylinder 1 injector plug was the only connector on my entire engine harness that didn't break. The easiest solution is a brand new $450 harness or to source a hepfully slightly better shape but still 25 year old harness or connectors.

---

Grant Hughes

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> This is what I saw. Front struts that bolt to the
> upright. Spindle is not integrated.

Yeah 0 something and later like maybe 04.

Earlier ar like thisÖ


And GROUND CONTROL?????
>
> Merkur has all the same electrical bullshit as the
> BMW that can be removed. The thing the BMW has in
> it's advantage is that the connectors are ten
> years newer and they aren't in cars that are
> notorious for being overheated and run hot. I
> think I've probably already mentioned it 16 times
> that the cylinder 1 injector plug was the only
> connector on my entire engine harness that didn't
> break. The easiest solution is a brand new $450
> harness or to source a hepfully slightly better
> shape but still 25 year old harness or connectors.

Still haven't called....and I went and died.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2009 01:04PM by john vanlandingham.