Jim here's a suggestion starting about 1.50



"You've got a nice bit of forest here, squire....."

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2009 12:58AM by john vanlandingham.

I did look over the Google Map fully zoomed in....... It would be a great place. There is even a Motor Grader to replace whatever material we fling off the roads and a Bucket Looader in case someone needs to have whats left of the car pushed into a hole (just joking). There are several folks here who are trained Heavy Equipment operators (myself included) and we have at least one Heavy Machine mechanic. There may be something to work with along those lines. Ideas anyone?

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Diamond Jim
Co-Driver in the Double Zero course opening car
Charter Member of O.U.C.H.
Organized Union of Cat Herders

Jim,

First of all, the Rogaine comment was COLD (but true!).

Derek,

You are smarter than most of us. What possible reason could we give this guy to let us play in his woods? I sure as shit can't think of anything!

Sean,

My place is in White Center.

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

What is known about the land owner, likes dislikes etc, ... Common ground maybe an opening toward discussion ...

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As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Let me start by saying that I don't have a clue about the insurance options available to you guys in the US, but I can only imagine that there would be something to cover a test day.

I have a couple of thoughts on this, but it will move the event away from Robert's idea of an 'ad hoc' sesson of playing in the woods.

Any land-owner, particularly a business with road leases, won't be satisfied with simple 'waivers' saying that you are limiting their liability, they will want to be named in YOUR insurance policy. In the event that something happens, you need to be able to assure the landowner that they don't have to worry about defending themselves for letting you play on their roads and the event insurance has them covered.

A nice bit of spin that can sometimes work is suggesting that the company institute a policy (if they don't have one) that only activities that are sanctioned and insured can happen so they can limit activity and make policing activities that much easier.

Lastly, if you create a bit of a buffer in the budget you can tie in a donation to a local charity (Food Bank, 'Jr. Forest Rangers', etc.) Don't commit to a specific charity before talking to the landowner - get his feedback on where he donation is best placed in HIS community.

BUT, this means having all of your ducks in a row and sourcing insurance and sanctions before you event think about talking to the landowner. (Not to mention that sanctioning the event means rules and safety standards...) That said, if you want these sessions to be sustainable over the long term then you'll want all that in place anyway.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2009 10:42AM by Morison.

Good points. Might be a good idea for a small core group to get together and form a plan ?

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As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Further - if the charity can issue tax receipts, say that you will donate in the name of the company, giving them the tax break,

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Catch 22..no insurance without an event..no land without insurance..no event without land.

Anyone who gives permission to use their land for a non-sanctioned event runs risk of lawsuits. I believe that both Straddle Line ORV Park and DNR (Capital Forest) were sued and in court for several years from activities related to users. They won in the end but still had very large expenses defending against BS lawsuits.

SCCA can insure a RallyX , relatively low cost. Restrictions on locale and obstacles. Has to be Region approved and SCCA personell on sight. NRS has RallyX also, similar restrictions, probably just need me on sight, but its about $600 to sanction. RA has no RallyX program. Rally Sprint which requires licensed and logged cars..same as any rally. Fees are affordable but this is not for most of the people interested.

Practice days can be covered under an events master sanction, but they must be held near an event timewise and only available to event entrants. Not an option for this either.

What would a landowner have for benefits in allowing land to be used by a bunch of hooligans ??? Really not any, except maybe a cold warm, warm 'burger and ride in a car. What would they have for risk ?? Repairing any road damage, hauling gravel in at $20 a yard, expense of spreading gravel, flack from any EcoNazis and the dreaded lawsuits if someone gets hurt.

Welcome to the sucky world of organizing....

I wished I had a good answer for this type of event. I miss the days when 3 or 4 of us would go tear up Weyerhauser roads for fun.

The test days I run in Calgary (well, 40 minutes west of Calgary) are run under the same risk category as a rally sprint and require a legal and logbooked car. ($900 CAD for insurance) All well subscribed and a net revenue generator for the rally line in the club budget. (offsets losses in regional stage rally events)

Particularly in today's society - running at anything above the posted limit on any road won't likely be insurable without all the safety gear.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

I wish I had power tools sufficient to make my 3 acre "kart track" wide enough for such things. John and I and a few other hooligans have punished Hornetkars out here but I don't think you'd wanna put a rallycar on it. Makes Tahola look like I5, it does.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

I have two ideas on this subject.

1) Form a club that exist as its own legal entity has a dues base and can shop for insurance for its activities, all activities for a given year. The club would then offer to lease the land at a fee and indemnify the land owner through the terms of the lease. Indemnification is the most important section of any modern contract. This is the section that limits the liability of the parties and says that if they get sued we will defend them on our nickle (our insurance's nickle). Other clauses of the lease would cover things like hazardous materials (spillage) and so forth. The lease can be for an extended time or just a week. The club would compensate the land owner in some form - donation to charity, publicity or cash. Nothing bars the club from buying land at some point too. Leases are good ways to do this as they are used all the time and protect the building owner from the activities of the tenants in just about every store you walked into doing your xmas shopping.

2) Form a land investment entity with the goal of buying land that has some future value many years off that we can use in the short term (many years) for having good old fun on with the idea the partners will sell or other wise monetize the land at a future date as part of the investors retirement savings. Land growing trees is really good at this, it has a long hold time with a crop to harvest in 20 to 30 years. It also tends to have very low property taxes etc.

If you where a selfish bastard you would go find a hunk of land that is never visited by the owners and "Openly and Notoriously" occupy and use this hunk of land for 7 to 10 years and then claim a right of adverse possession, settling for rights to use the roads. I personally will not take any part of such an action but it is the law in Washington.

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In the long run reality always wins.

As for dues, given what most of you pay for cable TV, cell phones, and such I think we can set them in that ball park. 50 people paying $100/ month to have access to an any time practice road is $60,000 a year and beats the hell out of Colin McRea Rally on your Xbox. $60K less exp of say 10K leaves 50K a year. That would support $800,000 in debt and if done in an investment the idea would be to get back your dues in the future, ie it is a savings program. I expect it could return 5% to 15% over the life of the investment. Most people I know could use to save $100 a month towards their retirement.

Likewise for the club idea walking up to a land owner and saying you have a basically risk free way to earn $15,000 off your empty vacant hunk of land just sitting there... well that tends to get ones' attention.

Anyway I have taken about 5 mins out of my work day - I need to get back to deciding if the 397 high rise apartment homes I am currently building should have exposed duct work painted or left raw in the walk-in closets...

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In the long run reality always wins.

Very interesting topic.
One way to get access is to claim it for "mining". Those claims are powerful and cheap. 10 guys can get 200 acres. "Hey, between mining we just like to drive fast on dirt roads!"
http://www.ehow.com/how_5065220_file-gold-mining-claim.html
The other possibility is Indian land. They have their own laws and rules. Laughlin Rally run on Indian land for years for cheap.

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- RWD rocks -

"50 people paying $100/ month to have access to an any time practice road is $60,000 a year and beats the hell out of Colin McRea Rally on your Xbox. $60K less exp of say 10K leaves 50K a year. That would support $800,000 in debt and if done in an investment the idea would be to get back your dues in the future, ie it is a savings program. I expect it could return 5% to 15% over the life of the investment."

Derek, you're talking about something related to rallying, and making money with it. This concept is so alien that I can only come up with 2 alternatives; you're either a genius or you're smoking some serious loco weed. Either way it's enough to make me go looking...for either viable land or some of whatever you're smokin!

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

The problem with Derek's idea is the 50 people paying anything.
We have an 800 acre facility 60 miles east of Denver with a 2 mile and 8 mile rally track, as well as a few other tracks that are driveable on, but not as rally friendly. The guy running the deal sells annual passes for $250 and probably sells less than 10 to stage rally guys. We have around 30-40 built cars that are less than 100 miles from the facility.

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Grant Hughes